Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[blü 2]

And don't forget, the Hebrews were anti LGBT. They cared nothing for the environment. They used animals as beasts of burden.
They had no bill of rights. They couldn't carry guns. Women weren't allow to leave their kids and serve in the army. They couldn't
do drugs. Pornography essentially was repressed. They had corporal punishment for students.

This is called PRESENTISM.
A lovely example of behavior is given in what is called the New Testament, a part of the Christian bible. And good examples of
Christian doctrine is found in Matt 5,6 and 7. Suggest you read it.

So you're NOT a "presentist" and God has your support all the way with massacring the populations of conquered cities, of human sacrifice to God, you keep a few slaves because they're handy round the house, and you keep Saturday, the biblical Sabbath, sacred?

 

[ElishaElijah]

The Truth is that if you were Jewish in the 1st century CE, there was nothing about the Jesus described in the NT that would cause you to think he was a messiah ─ he was not a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, and he was never anointed by the priesthood, though 'anointed by the priesthood' is what 'messiah' means.

The whole believing Church was Jewish at the beginning.

 

[YoursTrue]

Nope. There is just the messiah king. There is no messiah redeemer.

Would you say that humanity is entrapped in sin? I do know the high priest of Israel under the mosaic law was to offer sacrifices for the nation and for himself, wasn't he?

 

[PruePhillip]

So you're NOT a "presentist" and God has your support all the way with massacring the populations of conquered cities, of human sacrifice to God, you keep a few slaves because they're handy round the house, and you keep Saturday, the biblical Sabbath, sacred?

I am Christian. Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. I have no dietary restrictions. I don't sacrifice little lambs.
I don't kill anyone - in fact I am not allowed to let the sun go down on my anger. And I must treat slaves
like I treat myself - if not better.

 

[PruePhillip]

Academics will cease to use the bible when the bible ceases to be useful in obtaining grants, the lifeblood of field work in particular. Nor does the occasional headline of this kind in the popular press hurt a career as a rule.

If this Sodom business holds up to scrutiny I will be please. The claimed present of 'shocked quartz' is a give away.
This supposed event happened ca 1650 BC. Abraham was 100 yo same year and he had Isaac. Same year the
Hyksos took control of Lwr Egypt. Joseph was elevated to power under Hyksos rule (Canaanite, Semite people)
and the time of Moses was the Bronze Age Collapse when people were migrating absolutely everywhere.

 

[blü 2]

The whole believing Church was Jewish at the beginning.

That doesn't alter anything I said. Jesus didn't qualify as a Jewish messiah at all.

 

[blü 2]

IAnd I must treat slaves
like I treat myself - if not better.

Lucky for them!

The claimed present of 'shocked quartz' is a give away.

If it holds up, it has the potential to be very interesting.

 

[PruePhillip]

Lucky for them!
If it holds up, it has the potential to be very interesting.

Paul's letter to Philemon had a big impact on how Romans saw slavery.
Christianity made no comment on behavior of those outside of the faith, but Paul showed that the
slave was equal to the freeman. In fact Christianity isn't about 'women's rights' or 'people of color'
or the poor - it's about the universal idea that we are equal before God (note - not necessarily
equal in economic terms.)

 

[blü 2]

Paul's letter to Philemon had a big impact on how Romans saw slavery.
Christianity made no comment on behavior of those outside of the faith, but Paul showed that the
slave was equal to the freeman. In fact Christianity isn't about 'women's rights' or 'people of color'
or the poor - it's about the universal idea that we are equal before God (note - not necessarily
equal in economic terms.)

Paul, as I recall, told slaves to be good little slaves and keep smiling.

It was only in heaven where this equality notion was to apply. Nary a peep about abolishing the slave systems then in place throughout the Empire.

 

[PruePhillip]

Paul, as I recall, told slaves to be good little slaves and keep smiling.

It was only in heaven where this equality notion was to apply. Nary a peep about abolishing the slave systems then in place throughout the Empire.

And nary a word about racism, sexism, homophobia, war, empire, transgender, disability, inequality,
and the like. Christianity is about YOU - not the Caesars or the Herods. Christianity remained aloof
from worldly issues. If someone wanted to cut down every cedar in Lebanon the bible would be
concerned for the souls of the cutters - not the trees.

 

[blü 2]

And nary a word about racism, sexism, homophobia, war, empire, transgender, disability, inequality, and the like.

I recall Paul as confessing to be personally confused about sex and nonetheless expressly homophobic, both against men and women.

Christianity is about YOU - not the Caesars or the Herods. Christianity remained aloof from worldly issues. If someone wanted to cut down every cedar in Lebanon the bible would be concerned for the souls of the cutters - not the trees.

Christianity was briefly about me when I was 14 and volunteered for Pisco confirmation. That lasted roughly a month after the event. I think that's a fair summary, though I remain culturally a Pisco in some ways, and know the words of the hymns when attending Pisco services like funerals and weddings.

 

[PruePhillip]

I recall Paul as confessing to be personally confused about sex and nonetheless expressly homophobic, both against men and women.
Christianity was briefly about me when I was 14 and volunteered for Pisco confirmation. That lasted roughly a month after the event. I think that's a fair summary, though I remain culturally a Pisco in some ways, and know the words of the hymns when attending Pisco services like funerals and weddings.

Certainly Christianity and Judaism expresses 'homophobic' views. They also express adultery-phobic
views, and pedophila-phobic views and divorce-phobic views. These things come under the heading
of morality.
There's three aspectes to Judaism - the Ordinances (rites, rituals) the Judgements (inheritance etc)
and the Morality. Jesus 'fulfilled' the two first two and made the third more severe (you have heard it
said you shall not committ adultery, but I say if you look upon a woma with lust you have committed
adultery.)

 

[blü 2]

Certainly Christianity and Judaism expresses 'homophobic' views. They also express adultery-phobic views, and pedophila-phobic views and divorce-phobic views. These things come under the heading of morality.

I think if there's a God and if homosexuality is bad then no one can be blamed but God. [He] after all set the whole system up with perfect omniscient foresight, so it couldn't happen without [his] having intended it to happen. I also think there's no coherent concept of a real God, and that gods are artifacts of human culture; and that people's sexuality is only of concern when it's exploitative and non-consensual.

(you have heard it said you shall not committ adultery, but I say if you look upon a woma with lust you have committed adultery.)

Poor sad confused little dude! I guess that can happen when you've had an unhappy childhood. If there's one basic fact about existence, the fundamental rule of evolution, it's looking at your sexual choice with lust.

 

[PruePhillip]

I think if there's a God and if homosexuality is bad then no one can be blamed but God. [He] after all set the whole system up with perfect omniscient foresight, so it couldn't happen without [his] having intended it to happen. I also think there's no coherent concept of a real God, and that gods are artifacts of human culture; and that people's sexuality is only of concern when it's exploitative and non-consensual.
Poor sad confused little dude! I guess that can happen when you've had an unhappy childhood. If there's one basic fact about existence, the fundamental rule of evolution, it's looking at your sexual choice with lust.

Sure, war is natural too. Killing, hate, conquest, empires, xenophobia, genocide etc..
Do we give in to it?
And rape, stealing, lying, murder etc are all natural. Do you we give in to that as well?
God set it all up. We are TWO creatures - that which is 'akin to the animals' and of the
clay. And that which is spiritual. Two natures struggling - like Cain and Abel, Isaac and
Ishmael, Jacob and Esau. These are well known themes of the bible. God has given us
freedom to chose.

 

[blü 2]

God set it all up. We are TWO creatures - that which is 'akin to the animals' and of the clay. And that which is spiritual. Two natures struggling - like Cain and Abel, Isaac and
Ishmael, Jacob and Esau. These are well known themes of the bible. God has given us freedom to chose.

We are one creature, H sap sap. Close to all cultures we know of have supernatural beliefs ─ plainly that's something humans do. There's no consistency between those beliefs. Whereas if real people look out of real windows they'll see reality, real people devising supernatural beings don't see the same thing ─ part of the compelling evidence that supernatural beings are cultural artifacts and exist only as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

That's one aspect of how we've evolved. Another is an evolved morality appropriate for living in groups and gaining the advantages of cooperation. Thus we're born with moral tendencies to dislike the one who harms, to like fairness and reciprocity, to respect authority, to be loyal to the group, and to have a sense of self-worth through self-denial. And of course, like all mammals, child protection and nurture. The rest of our morality ─ how to deal with people depending on sex, age, relationship, authority, and so on, plus the marking of life events like coming of age, pairing, childbirth, and death, are acquired from our upbringing, culture, education and experience.

If some people find gods helpful in treating others with decency, respect and inclusion, who's to argue?

 

[PruePhillip]

We are one creature, H sap sap. Close to all cultures we know of have supernatural beliefs ─ plainly that's something humans do. There's no consistency between those beliefs. Whereas if real people look out of real windows they'll see reality, real people devising supernatural beings don't see the same thing ─ part of the compelling evidence that supernatural beings are cultural artifacts and exist only as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

That's one aspect of how we've evolved. Another is an evolved morality appropriate for living in groups and gaining the advantages of cooperation. Thus we're born with moral tendencies to dislike the one who harms, to like fairness and reciprocity, to respect authority, to be loyal to the group, and to have a sense of self-worth through self-denial. And of course, like all mammals, child protection and nurture. The rest of our morality ─ how to deal with people depending on sex, age, relationship, authority, and so on, plus the marking of life events like coming of age, pairing, childbirth, and death, are acquired from our upbringing, culture, education and experience.

If some people find gods helpful in treating others with decency, respect and inclusion, who's to argue?

Your's is the secular view. What we see is all there is. There's a tinge of arrogance in that.
But we can't compare when the animal comes out in us - we are animals then why not act
like animals?
My profile below suggests the loss of religion has led us not to believe in nothing, but to
believe in anything.

 

[blü 2]

Your's is the secular view. What we see is all there is. There's a tinge of arrogance in that.

Rather, there's a tinge of arrogance in your attribution of arrogance.

But we can't compare when the animal comes out in us - we are animals then why not act like animals?

Except that our brains are remarkably large, effective and high maintenance in metabolic terms, how are we not like the animals? Just because we have an extended capacity for thought and language doesn't mean the dolphin, the elephant, the bonobo, lacks communication, intelligence or morality.

My profile below suggests the loss of religion has led us not to believe in nothing, but to believe in anything.

That statement reminds me of one which Chesterton is said to have said ─ "they won't believe nothing, they'll believe anything".

But as I mentioned in my previous post, evolution and environment are the twin sources of our morality, God or no God.

 

[PruePhillip]

Rather, there's a tinge of arrogance in your attribution of arrogance.
Except that our brains are remarkably large, effective and high maintenance in metabolic terms, how are we not like the animals? Just because we have an extended capacity for thought and language doesn't mean the dolphin, the elephant, the bonobo, lacks communication, intelligence or morality.
That statement reminds me of one which Chesterton is said to have said ─ "they won't believe nothing, they'll believe anything".

But as I mentioned in my previous post, evolution and environment are the twin sources of our morality, God or no God.

I was bemused at a story about members of the World Council of Churches watching a video of a Bonobo masturbating.
They said they had no idea how similar humans are to animals. That's nothing new to those who wrote the bible.
When I said 'act like animals' you should know what I mean - red in tooth and claw. This incidentally was the real shock
of Darwin's Origin of the Species. It was soon born out in horrendous wars and genocide of the 20th Century - the century
people hoped would end religious wars and monarchies. Sure did.

 

[blü 2]

I was bemused at a story about members of the World Council of Churches watching a video of a Bonobo masturbating.

The bonobos and the chimps are our closest genetic relatives. The chimps invade the territory of other chimps and kill the males. The bonobos use sex for just about every social interaction and they don't kill anyone.

It was soon born out in horrendous wars and genocide of the 20th Century - the century people hoped would end religious wars and monarchies. Sure did.

A strong contender for Most Revolting European War Ever is still the Thirty Years War, Catholic vs Protestant with ghastly savagery and deep hatred a feature on many occasions, both on the battlefield and against civilians.

 

[Muffled]

According to Christian interpretation, the book of Isaiah makes it clear God was pleased with the Christ wearing a crown of thorns and nailed to a cross, no?

Isaiah 53:10

But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.

I opened right up to that verse in my sacred book today.

So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too. I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!

I believe it was a good plan. As Jesus said in the garden "If there were only another way." but there wasn't.