Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[YoursTrue]

Of course. Do you really think anyone could kill God without God wanting it to happen?
Of course when it says he was pleased you have to understand that doesn't mean God was having a party as Jesus died. He was pleased, why? Because it was his plan all along to save us. I'm glad you see that it is a prophecy because lots of people try to deny that it's obviously about the crucifixion.

Thank you. Jesus suffered the penalty for being faithful unto death. He never sinned. He also cried to his heavenly Father when praying.

 

[YoursTrue]

True. The name of Jesus isn't mentioned in the Tanakh. It doesn't have to. The suffering Messiah
who will be pierced, who will shock the world with his disfigurement, who will be believed upon of
the Gentiles after the Jews go into exile - wasn't called Dick, Harry or Jack. In fact he had no name
or many names, depends how you read it.
His seed is a spiritual seed - those who become the children of God.

Despite the fact that he was convicted as a sinner, he never sinned. Even Pontius Pilate suggested he was not guilty, or that he should be put to death. He gave in to the people.

 

[Spiderman]

I made m-a-n-y more mistakes before I became a Christian. I still make mistakes but they are of a different sort. Does that make sense to you?

I pray to the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit on a regular basis. I make fewer mistakes as a result.

I'm expecting the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised!

 

[YoursTrue]

I pray to the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit on a regular basis. I make fewer mistakes as a result.

I'm expecting the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised!

Before I knew God and how HE wanted people to live, I did whatever I wanted. more or less. I'm amazed I'm still alive. But after I studied the Bible and saw what HE wanted, it's been a different path and I'm glad to be on it. This does not mean I don't make mistakes, but God is teaching me.

 

[PruePhillip]

Everything about the "servant" in Isaiah is about Israel. Isaiah himself identifies the servant as Israel.

So Israel will suffer, die, be restored to life and pay the price for the sin of the people?
So what then is this Redeemer that Isaiah, David, Job etc speak of? The one who is
REJECTED BY ISRAEL and suffers a cruel death?

 

[YoursTrue]

So Israel will suffer, die, be restored to life and pay the price for the sin of the people?
So what then is this Redeemer that Isaiah, David, Job etc speak of? The one who is
REJECTED BY ISRAEL and suffers a cruel death?

Good point. I wonder what @IndigoChild5559 will say to that. Very interesting point, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[PruePhillip]

Good point. I wonder what @IndigoChild5559 will say to that. Very interesting point, thanks for bringing it up.

What the Mediaeval scribes did in inventing this Israel business for Isaiah 53 was
INVENT AN ENTIRE NEW THEOLOGY NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE TO EXPLAIN
AWAY SOME VERSES.
NOWHERE in the Torah is there any doctrine of Israel dying and redeeming the world.
And of course, being resurrected.

 

[YoursTrue]

What the Mediaeval scribes did in inventing this Israel business for Isaiah 53 was
INVENT AN ENTIRE NEW THEOLOGY NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE TO EXPLAIN
AWAY SOME VERSES.
NOWHERE in the Torah is there any doctrine of Israel dying and redeeming the world.
And of course, being resurrected.

Still I'm waiting for @IndigoChild5559 's answer. But what you say makes good sense. So I'll be hoping that someone who believes Israel as a religious and/or genetic nation (because it comes to that sometimes) fits that description. One thing about Maimonides -- he believed in a resurrection.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So Israel will suffer, die, be restored to life and pay the price for the sin of the people?
So what then is this Redeemer that Isaiah, David, Job etc speak of? The one who is
REJECTED BY ISRAEL and suffers a cruel death?

The faithful obedient remnant of Israel has suffered and died and they will continue to suffer and die. Isaiah 53 doesn't mention anything about a resurrection. It is vicarious suffering of the remnant on behalf of all of Israel. Vicarious suffering is defined as 'suffering in place of and for the benefit of others'.

The messiah is not a redeemer. God himself is our redeemer. The messiah is simply the man who will rule Israel during the idyllic messianic age.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Good point. I wonder what @IndigoChild5559 will say to that. Very interesting point, thanks for bringing it up.

I replied to him in post #89.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What the Mediaeval scribes did in inventing this Israel business for Isaiah 53 was
INVENT AN ENTIRE NEW THEOLOGY NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE TO EXPLAIN
AWAY SOME VERSES.
NOWHERE in the Torah is there any doctrine of Israel dying and redeeming the world.
And of course, being resurrected.

No where in the Torah is the messiah mentioned. The idea of the messiah came into being once Israel decided to have a king.

I stand by what I said in post 89.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Still I'm waiting for @IndigoChild5559 's answer. But what you say makes good sense. So I'll be hoping that someone who believes Israel as a religious and/or genetic nation (because it comes to that sometimes) fits that description. One thing about Maimonides -- he believed in a resurrection.

His post mistakenly assumes that the idea of the messiah was around when the Torah was written, but the truth is the Torah says nothing about the messiah. In order for there to even be a concept of the messiah, aka the man who will rule Israel during the idyllic messianic era, Israel first had decide to have a king.

 

[PruePhillip]

No where in the Torah is the messiah mentioned. The idea of the messiah came into being once Israel decided to have a king.

I stand by what I said in post 89.

True - there's no Messiah in scripture, there's TWO MESSIAHS.
King and Redeemer.
Zechariah (amongst others) points out how the two are the same - the Jews will mourn when
they finally see their Messiah ruling over the nations - it's the same lowly man they crucified.

 

[PruePhillip]

The faithful obedient remnant of Israel has suffered and died and they will continue to suffer and die. Isaiah 53 doesn't mention anything about a resurrection. It is vicarious suffering of the remnant on behalf of all of Israel. Vicarious suffering is defined as 'suffering in place of and for the benefit of others'.

The messiah is not a redeemer. God himself is our redeemer. The messiah is simply the man who will rule Israel during the idyllic messianic age.

Still I'm waiting for @IndigoChild5559 's answer. But what you say makes good sense. So I'll be hoping that someone who believes Israel as a religious and/or genetic nation (because it comes to that sometimes) fits that description. One thing about Maimonides -- he believed in a resurrection.

Love what Job said

I parsed the sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus. Isn't that marvelous?

 

[YoursTrue]

His post mistakenly assumes that the idea of the messiah was around when the Torah was written, but the truth is the Torah says nothing about the messiah. In order for there to even be a concept of the messiah, aka the man who will rule Israel during the idyllic messianic era, Israel first had decide to have a king.

I realize that it does not mention the name of the foretold messiah. I have Jewish relatives. One told me she was thinking her firstborn son might be the Messiah. He wasn't of course. Others told me they don't really believe the Bible. They don't go to synagogue, don't keep kosher, now the last one I heard of that might be the Messiah was Rebbe Schneerson, but he hasn't been seen to come out of his grave. Do you know if there are still men standing by watching as they used to? Which reminds me that no human saw Jesus computer of the grave upon arising from the dead. To think of it, I am thrilled.

 

[YoursTrue]

Love what Job said

I parsed the sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus. Isn't that marvelous?

What faith Job had. Marvelous.

 

[YoursTrue]

The faithful obedient remnant of Israel has suffered and died and they will continue to suffer and die. Isaiah 53 doesn't mention anything about a resurrection. It is vicarious suffering of the remnant on behalf of all of Israel. Vicarious suffering is defined as 'suffering in place of and for the benefit of others'.

The messiah is not a redeemer. God himself is our redeemer. The messiah is simply the man who will rule Israel during the idyllic messianic age.

It gets a bit complicated also to genetics. As pointed out, sheep and goats cannot be redeemers. I'll look into this more when I have more time. It's interesting, thanks.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

True - there's no Messiah in scripture, there's TWO MESSIAHS.
King and Redeemer.
Zechariah (amongst others) points out how the two are the same - the Jews will mourn when
they finally see their Messiah ruling over the nations - it's the same lowly man they crucified.

Nope. There is just the messiah king. There is no messiah redeemer.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I realize that it does not mention the name of the foretold messiah. I have Jewish relatives. One told me she was thinking her firstborn son might be the Messiah. He wasn't of course. Others told me they don't really believe the Bible. They don't go to synagogue, don't keep kosher, now the last one I heard of that might be the Messiah was Rebbe Schneerson, but he hasn't been seen to come out of his grave. Do you know if there are still men standing by watching as they used to? Which reminds me that no human saw Jesus computer of the grave upon arising from the dead. To think of it, I am thrilled.

The idea of the messiah is more important for some branches of Judaism than others.

Not really sure why you brought up the non-observance of some Jews. It really has nothing to do with the messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It gets a bit complicated also to genetics. As pointed out, sheep and goats cannot be redeemers. I'll look into this more when I have more time. It's interesting, thanks.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying with this goats and sheep stuff. The messiah will be a man, but he will be a king, not a redeemer.