Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[blü 2]

A Massive Meteor May Have Destroyed The Biblical City Of Sodom

It has been recently discovered that a meteor impact knocked down the walls of Jericho.

Ahm, it doesn't say it was Sodom ─ it says it may have been a model for the Sodom story.

Nonetheless fascinating if true ─ they certainly describe a puzzle. And what sheer rotten luck to be living in this tiny area of the earth that represented the town, and have a really chunky meteor coming through the roof!

 

[blü 2]

Maybe Jesus didn't just hang out with the boys, but he had women with him, too? If so, maybe there was the pitter patter of little feet on the surface of water?

That's the terrain of Mr Baigent and friends, and the plot assumptions used by the da Vinci Code &c.

 

[stanberger]

According to Christian interpretation, the book of Isaiah makes it clear God was pleased with the Christ wearing a crown of thorns and nailed to a cross, no?

Isaiah 53:10

But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.

I opened right up to that verse in my sacred book today.

So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too. I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!

any god needing the blood of innocent man on cross is

 

[stanberger]

any god needing the blood of innocent man on cross is

sorry cut off any god needing blood of innocent man on a cross in order to forgive sins is unworthy of worship

 

[Spiderman]

A Massive Meteor May Have Destroyed The Biblical City Of Sodom

It has been recently discovered that a meteor impact knocked down the walls of Jericho.

Interesting you say meteor. Right before I read your posts I prayed for a lucky star in heaven, and for Angels and Saints to wish upon a lucky meteor shower on my behalf, for me to be enlightened and obedient.

While I wrote it , I wondered if I spelled meteor correctly, then saw your post contains the word "meteor", exactly as I spelled it in my journal, about two hours before reading your meteor post.

I almost never write "meteor" anywhere, so what a coincidence.

 

[Colt]

Someone died?

Yes, the temporary mortal tabernacle of the Son of God died because his people didn’t like his Gospel. Then his followers created a religion around speculation about his coming to earth and dying.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Not if God is tortured to death, that's not going to be a vacation.... Yes I'm sure suffering like a human was necessary because he had to experience everything we experience. But my point is that God wasn't practicing child abuse here...this plan was made with all three members of the Trinity in agreement before they created anything. And yes there's plenty about it we can not fully understand.

Maybe, to God, a trip to heaven is like a Club Med vacation? However, did God have to allow Jesus to be tortured to death? Maybe God felt that Jesus had to understand human suffering, and the only way to truly understand is to suffer as well?

Perhaps we are not smart enough to understand the workings of Gods?

 

[Wildswanderer]

A Massive Meteor May Have Destroyed The Biblical City Of Sodom

It has been recently discovered that a meteor impact knocked down the walls of Jericho.

The title says " may have" not " did"
And if God used a meteor, why not? He used something like meteors at Sodom also.

 

[PruePhillip]

According to Christian interpretation, the book of Isaiah makes it clear God was pleased with the Christ wearing a crown of thorns and nailed to a cross, no?

Isaiah 53:10

But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.

I opened right up to that verse in my sacred book today.

So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too. I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!

Another interesting one is Psalm 22 which details this crucifixion.

 

[PruePhillip]

That can't be Jesus. One reason is that Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Another is that Jesus, according to all the stories, sired no children ("seed").

True. The name of Jesus isn't mentioned in the Tanakh. It doesn't have to. The suffering Messiah
who will be pierced, who will shock the world with his disfigurement, who will be believed upon of
the Gentiles after the Jews go into exile - wasn't called Dick, Harry or Jack. In fact he had no name
or many names, depends how you read it.
His seed is a spiritual seed - those who become the children of God.

 

[blü 2]

True. The name of Jesus isn't mentioned in the Tanakh. It doesn't have to. The suffering Messiah who will be pierced, who will shock the world with his disfigurement, who will be believed upon of the Gentiles after the Jews go into exile - wasn't called Dick, Harry or Jack. In fact he had no name or many names, depends how you read it.
His seed is a spiritual seed - those who become the children of God.

The Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel. If you consult any Jewish or Christian scholar who's objective about such things, you'll find they all agree.

Were the Suffering Servant to have "seed", they'd be the nation of Israel.

As well, there's no way that Jesus would be recognized as a Jewish messiah. He was not a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, he was not anointed by the Jewish priesthood (the literal meaning of 'messiah') and he did nothing to restore the political independence of the Jewish state,

Instead he was the cause of two thousand years of often murderous Christian antisemitism.

 

[PruePhillip]

The Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel. If you consult any Jewish or Christian scholar who's objective about such things, you'll find they all agree.

Were the Suffering Servant to have "seed", they'd be the nation of Israel.

As well, there's no way that Jesus would be recognized as a Jewish messiah. He was not a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, he was not anointed by the Jewish priesthood (the literal meaning of 'messiah') and he did nothing to restore the political independence of the Jewish state,

Instead he was the cause of two thousand years of often murderous Christian antisemitism.

Sounds like Jewish apologia, a defense of Jewish evasiveness.
The Jews recognise the Messianic king but not the Redemption Savior - BOTH are in their Tanakh.
Their Mediaeval 'explanation' for this Redeemer is a 'best fit' under the circumstances, ie it doesn't
explain everything with Redeemer texts, but their theory is plausible deniability - and that's actually
why it was written that way.

 

[blü 2]

Sounds like Jewish apologia

No defense necessary ─ it's a Jewish term, and if you want to know what it means, ask a Jewish friend.

a defense of Jewish evasiveness.

I'm not aware of any "Jewish evasiveness". Please tell me what you're referring to, specifically.

The Jews recognise the Messianic king but not the Redemption Savior - BOTH are in their Tanakh.

So what? Jesus, as I said, is not recognizable, in Jewish terms, as a messiah, not least but by no means only because he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood.

Their Mediaeval 'explanation' for this Redeemer is a 'best fit' under the circumstances, ie it doesn't explain everything with Redeemer texts, but their theory is plausible deniability - and that's actually why it was written that way.

They don't need 'plausible deniability ─ it's not up to Christians to tell Jewish people what a messiah is in Jewish terms.

And what 'medieval' 'explanation', exactly? And why would medieval times be relevant to the point?

 

[PruePhillip]

No defense necessary ─ it's a Jewish term, and if you want to know what it means, ask a Jewish friend.
I'm not aware of any "Jewish evasiveness". Please tell me what you're referring to, specifically.
So what? Jesus, as I said, is not recognizable, in Jewish terms, as a messiah, not least but by no means only because he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood.
They don't need 'plausible deniability ─ it's not up to Christians to tell Jewish people what a messiah is in Jewish terms.

And what 'medieval' 'explanation', exactly? And why would medieval times be relevant to the point?

Simply put, most Jews deny Jesus is the Messiah.
Most Jews have no cultural, intellectual or spiritual connection to a Savior.
Most Jews don't want to be saved - they want to restore Israel - they feel the law of Moses has already saved them.

 

[blü 2]

Simply put, most Jews deny Jesus is the Messiah.

Simply put, if you're Jewish, that's absolutely correct.

Most Jews have no cultural, intellectual or spiritual connection to a Savior.

Exactly. They pray directly to God. They have no need of an intermediary.

Most Jews don't want to be saved

I find the term 'saved' meaningless, though perhaps for different reasons; however I'm at once sympathetic to the idea of not feeling any need to be saved.

they want to restore Israel

If you look carefully, you'll notice they've already restored Israel. Which would take us into that unpleasant cultural maze, Israeli politics. But that's not our concern here.

they feel the law of Moses has already saved them.

Do they? If so, are they wrong?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

According to Christian interpretation, the book of Isaiah makes it clear God was pleased with the Christ wearing a crown of thorns and nailed to a cross, no?

Isaiah 53:10

But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.

I opened right up to that verse in my sacred book today.

So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too. I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!

Isaiah 53 is not about the messiah. It's about Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sounds like Jewish apologia, a defense of Jewish evasiveness.
The Jews recognise the Messianic king but not the Redemption Savior - BOTH are in their Tanakh.
Their Mediaeval 'explanation' for this Redeemer is a 'best fit' under the circumstances, ie it doesn't
explain everything with Redeemer texts, but their theory is plausible deniability - and that's actually
why it was written that way.

No, it is not in the tanakh that the Messiah will be a redemptive savior. Chrisitans get this idea from misreading Isaiah 53 and thinking it is speaking of the messiah. But Isaiah himself identifies the servant as the People of Israel.

 

[PruePhillip]

No, it is not in the tanakh that the Messiah will be a redemptive savior. Chrisitans get this idea from misreading Isaiah 53 and thinking it is speaking of the messiah. But Isaiah himself identifies the servant as the People of Israel.

Simply put, if you're Jewish, that's absolutely correct.
Exactly. They pray directly to God. They have no need of an intermediary.
I find the term 'saved' meaningless, though perhaps for different reasons; however I'm at once sympathetic to the idea of not feeling any need to be saved.
If you look carefully, you'll notice they've already restored Israel. Which would take us into that unpleasant cultural maze, Israeli politics. But that's not our concern here.
Do they? If so, are they wrong?

The original text was NOT in a chapter and verse format.
There was no Isaiah 53, or 52 or whatever.
In fact there weren't even spaces between words.
And it was written right to left.
A good place to break the verses into paragraphs would have been at Isaiah 52:

Verse 1 to 6 refers to Israel:
.
.
.
.
5 “And now what do I have here?” declares the Lord.
“For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock,”
declares the Lord.
“And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I.”

Verse 7 is about the Ministry
7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
“Your God reigns!”

Vers 8 to 13 is Israel
Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices;
together they shout for joy.
When the Lord returns to Zion,
they will see it with their own eyes.
9 Burst into songs of joy together,
you ruins of Jerusalem,
for the Lord has comforted his people,
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
.
.
.
.
Verse 9 through the rest of Isaiah 52 and all of 53 is a single figure who is rejected, killed and rises again.

See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
.
.
.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


THIS IS A THEME OF THE TANAKH - THE SUFFERING LAMB OF GOD WHO REDEEMS (PAYS THE PRICE) FOR OUR SIN. A REIGNING KING CANNOT DO THIS. ZECHARIAH STITCHES TOGETHER THE SUFFERING SAVIOR AND THE REIGNING MESSIASH AS ONE PERSON.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The original text was NOT in a chapter and verse format.
There was no Isaiah 53, or 52 or whatever.
In fact there weren't even spaces between words.
And it was written right to left.
A good place to break the verses into paragraphs would have been at Isaiah 52:

Verse 1 to 6 refers to Israel:
.
.
.
.
5 “And now what do I have here?” declares the Lord.
“For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock,”
declares the Lord.
“And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I.”

Verse 7 is about the Ministry
7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
“Your God reigns!”

Vers 8 to 13 is Israel
Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices;
together they shout for joy.
When the Lord returns to Zion,
they will see it with their own eyes.
9 Burst into songs of joy together,
you ruins of Jerusalem,
for the Lord has comforted his people,
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
.
.
.
.
Verse 9 through the rest of Isaiah 52 and all of 53 is a single figure who is rejected, killed and rises again.

See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
.
.
.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


THIS IS A THEME OF THE TANAKH - THE SUFFERING LAMB OF GOD WHO REDEEMS (PAYS THE PRICE) FOR OUR SIN. A REIGNING KING CANNOT DO THIS. ZECHARIAH STITCHES TOGETHER THE SUFFERING SAVIOR AND THE REIGNING MESSIASH AS ONE PERSON.

Everything about the "servant" in Isaiah is about Israel. Isaiah himself identifies the servant as Israel.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I have suffered excruciating pain, unbearable humiliation, and even spent 10 weeks in a wheelchair due to mistakes that I have made. But the mistakes that I have made, the cross, the suffering, has been a great teacher.

Rather than download the virtues into me, God has me acquire the virtues through mistakes. I've noticed that. I don't like it, but you are correct, that's the way it goes.

I made m-a-n-y more mistakes before I became a Christian. I still make mistakes but they are of a different sort. Does that make sense to you?