Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[Clara Tea]

Interesting you said "Rocketman" to describe Kim Jong Un.

The next afternoon after you said that, I'm in line to buy goods, and I see Rocket Man:
View attachment 61169

Un has been threatening with nuke rockets. Un killed his uncle.

 

[1213]

No. You are basing this on an erroneous Christian misinterpretation of Isaiah 53.

Please tell what is the correct interpretation of the scripture, who is the person who is crushed, and why?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Of course. Do you really think anyone could kill God without God wanting it to happen?
Of course when it says he was pleased you have to understand that doesn't mean God was having a party as Jesus died. He was pleased, why? Because it was his plan all along to save us. I'm glad you see that it is a prophecy because lots of people try to deny that it's obviously about the crucifixion.

According to Christian interpretation, the book of Isaiah makes it clear God was pleased with the Christ wearing a crown of thorns and nailed to a cross, no?

Isaiah 53:10

But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.

I opened right up to that verse in my sacred book today.

So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too. I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!

 

[74x12]

Thank you for identifying the obvious! Jesus was kind of a suicide like Samson when you think about it!

I wouldn't call it suicide. But he did indicate that he laid down his life for his friends. So he did it on purpose to save us all.

 

[Colt]

Jewish prophecy said that there would be a Messiah. This is the prophecy that Christians believe. It is the prophecy that a man would be like a God.

You say that the Jewish prophecy is erroneous? Can you prove that the only prophecy that there will be a Messiah is erroneous?

Yes, the Jewish Massiah hasn't come yet. Jesus didn't fulfill the role of a Jewish Messiah. He left and went back to heaven.

 

[Kenny]

The interpretation I have received from Christians, (of that verse being Jesus,) is the most common interpretation I know of (regarding that verse)!

But you took one verse and spun it at the expense of the rest of the verses.

for Christians, the chapter is about Jesus and about you and me.

You have to read the full chapter and then you also have to read the same verses as Jesus explained it.

 

[Spiderman]

I wouldn't call it suicide. But he did indicate that he laid down his life for his friends. So he did it on purpose to save us all.

Like a Kamikaze, only this Kamikaze defeated the enemy, and saved the whole world!

 

[blü 2]

The Jews began with Abraham, who was a Gentile along with all people who lived at the time and before him. The Jewish scriptures shows what God has done to save all people, including the Jews. The Jewish scriptures are for everyone.

They portray a time of barbarous henotheistic people with a matching barbarous God, neither of which becomes very civilized till after the Babylonian captivity. The morality attributed to God ─ invasive wars, massacres of populations, mass rapes, human sacrifices, women as property, slavery, murderous religious intolerance &c ─ is a valuable sociological record, but an appalling moral guide for people living in the present century.

Jesus sired me and all Christians.

Your mother told you that?

 

[Brian2]

* No indication after the resurrection that Jesus said he was the suffering servant in Isaiah 53.

It seems there are 7 quotes from Isa 53 in the New Testament. Jesus used one of them about Himself and the disciples used the rest concerning Jesus and they wrote and spoke after the resurrection.
Matthew 8:14-17; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; 1 Peter 2:19-25; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21.

* Sacrifices for sins was a universal development in religions around the world that predated Judaism. The Israelites adopted it from the Pagans. Killing Jesus was a sin and the will of the devil. But Jesus did take the opportunity of his rejection to demonstrate life after death and his divinity.

Killing Jesus was wrong but that does not mean that it was not the will of God.
That Joseph's brother's sold Joseph into slavery was wrong but it was also a plan by God to have Joseph there to save his family from famine etc. (see Gen 45:1-14)

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV) For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV) How can you say, “We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us,” when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?

There are different translations of Jer 7:22. (see Jeremiah 7:22 For when I brought your fathers out of the land of Egypt, I did not merely command them about burnt offerings and sacrifices,)
But if you want it to mean that God did not give Israel temple sacrifices then you have to deny scripture in the Pentateuch and in many other places in the OT and New Testament.
With Jer 8:8 you are just making the presumption that the scripture is speaking about the sacrificial laws and that any errors were not later corrected again.

* Jesus didn't fulfill the erroneous expectations of a Jewish Messiah. He Left without doing what they expected.

The Jewish expectations were not erroneous and Jesus will fulfil it all eventually. It is just that He fulfilled Messianic prophecies that the Jews did not see as Messianic.

* The original Gospel changed after Jesus left. Compromises were made to appease the Pagan world who already believed in the human sacrifice of a savior God.

You have no evidence of that. You or someone made it up.

* A disciple is someone who lives the original, pre-cross Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus lived, taught and preached. Christianity became a religion about Jesus as a theoretical sin sacrifice.

The Gospel always included the news about the Kingdom of God and the moral teachings of Jesus and Christians are to follow those teachings.
You however deny the gospel when you deny the sacrifice of Jesus and all you have is your imagination as evidence for your ideas.

 

[Brian2]

They portray a time of barbarous henotheistic people with a matching barbarous God, neither of which becomes very civilized till after the Babylonian captivity. The morality attributed to God ─ invasive wars, massacres of populations, mass rapes, human sacrifices, women as property, slavery, murderous religious intolerance &c ─ is a valuable sociological record, but an appalling moral guide for people living in the present century.

You have a misunderstanding of God in OT times and accuse God of doing things that He did not do.

Your mother told you that?

No.

 

[blü 2]

You have a misunderstanding of God in OT times and accuse God of doing things that He did not do.

Or you choose to censor what the text says so as to make it conform to your idealized version, perhaps?

After all, my only interest in the Tanakh is what it says, and I have no desire for it to say any one thing more than any other. And of course I can back what I say with quotes. If you doubt that, just ask.

 

[Brian2]

Or you choose to censor what the text says so as to make it conform to your idealized version, perhaps?

After all, my only interest in the Tanakh is what it says, and I have no desire for it to say any one thing more than any other. And of course I can back what I say with quotes. If you doubt that, just ask.

Please show me some quotes.

 

[blü 2]

Please show me some quotes.

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, military victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven innocent sons and grandsons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance– Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”

And that's just a little sample, but it conveys the idea.

 

[Colt]

It seems there are 7 quotes from Isa 53 in the New Testament. Jesus used one of them about Himself and the disciples used the rest concerning Jesus and they wrote and spoke after the resurrection.
Matthew 8:14-17; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; 1 Peter 2:19-25; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21.



Killing Jesus was wrong but that does not mean that it was not the will of God.
That Joseph's brother's sold Joseph into slavery was wrong but it was also a plan by God to have Joseph there to save his family from famine etc. (see Gen 45:1-14)



There are different translations of Jer 7:22. (see Jeremiah 7:22 For when I brought your fathers out of the land of Egypt, I did not merely command them about burnt offerings and sacrifices,)
But if you want it to mean that God did not give Israel temple sacrifices then you have to deny scripture in the Pentateuch and in many other places in the OT and New Testament.
With Jer 8:8 you are just making the presumption that the scripture is speaking about the sacrificial laws and that any errors were not later corrected again.



The Jewish expectations were not erroneous and Jesus will fulfil it all eventually. It is just that He fulfilled Messianic prophecies that the Jews did not see as Messianic.



You have no evidence of that. You or someone made it up.



The Gospel always included the news about the Kingdom of God and the moral teachings of Jesus and Christians are to follow those teachings.
You however deny the gospel when you deny the sacrifice of Jesus and all you have is your imagination as evidence for your ideas.

I deny the new primitive Gospel which replaced the original Gospel taught by Jesus. There wasn't anything wrong with the original Gospel of the kingdom. People heard that Gospel and were saved long before the tragic rejection of Jesus and punishment of Israel for doing so.

You were born into a ready-made religion that concluded after the fact that we were supposed to kill Jesus as a human sacrifice so that Gods cold heart was finally moved to forgive mankind when he saw his blameless Son dying on the cross! Jesus never taught the atonement doctrine, that was speculation by former sacrifice minded followers who built a religion about Jesus after he left.

In the original Gospel that Jesus taught for 3+ years before being put to death for that very Gospel message, Jesus taught salvation by faith, receiving forgiveness from a merciful God as the result of sincere repentance, a change of heart, a restoration of right relations with God. See the Prodigal son. The scheme of substituting an innocent man for a guilty one was devised by humans!


(Mark 3:7–12; Luke 6:17–19)

23Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed—and He healed them.

Jesus wasn't preaching "Christ and him crucified" in synagogues for 3 years. Believers were hearing a different message, a different "good news".

It was the devils will that Jesus be killed not Gods!-------> “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”

The Father and Son used the rejection of the Gospel for a greater purpose. Forgiveness for sins was never conditional to the cross, that was an afterthought.

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

 

[Clara Tea]

you do not know the cause and effect
we say that one person dies in the second century and saves billions, and would the show condemn the one who killed him? or in the case of religion, it spread only because of his death, am I right? there is no Christianity without resurrection, and Christianity has brought a lot of good and bad, but how do we know that if it did not arise, the world would not be even worse? we don't know and that can be the cause
and also free will what does that mean? that we have a choice of good or evil and the unrighteous will die
take for example a person like you ask nonsensical questions every day without exploring the topic? how do you know it's about jesus? where is his name written? it's like taking cards and starting to prophesy in them and you would tell one person and that thing will happen to another in another century
as God says, we do not know his ways, nor are we able to understand why? his paths are unpredictable and you don't know what would happen if it didn't turn out the way it is
for example, will we say that the Wandering wins the war? where will it be? to total destruction right? but if god strikes or there is something in the plan that we don't know, the men will turn out otherwise I'm not right?

We wouldn't have California's missions without the enslavement (murder and torture) of Native Americas who were scared into Christianity. So, we wouldn't have post cards of the missions as souveniers. You are right....Christianity did a lot of good--we can look at our post cards are remember our vacations.

 

[Clara Tea]

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, military victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven innocent sons and grandsons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance– Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”

And that's just a little sample, but it conveys the idea.

A Massive Meteor May Have Destroyed The Biblical City Of Sodom

It has been recently discovered that a meteor impact knocked down the walls of Jericho.

 

[Clara Tea]

I deny the new primitive Gospel which replaced the original Gospel taught by Jesus. There wasn't anything wrong with the original Gospel of the kingdom. People heard that Gospel and were saved long before the tragic rejection of Jesus and punishment of Israel for doing so.

You were born into a ready-made religion that concluded after the fact that we were supposed to kill Jesus as a human sacrifice so that Gods cold heart was finally moved to forgive mankind when he saw his blameless Son dying on the cross! Jesus never taught the atonement doctrine, that was speculation by former sacrifice minded followers who built a religion about Jesus after he left.

In the original Gospel that Jesus taught for 3+ years before being put to death for that very Gospel message, Jesus taught salvation by faith, receiving forgiveness from a merciful God as the result of sincere repentance, a change of heart, a restoration of right relations with God. See the Prodigal son. The scheme of substituting an innocent man for a guilty one was devised by humans!


(Mark 3:7–12; Luke 6:17–19)

23Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed—and He healed them.

Jesus wasn't preaching "Christ and him crucified" in synagogues for 3 years. Believers were hearing a different message, a different "good news".

It was the devils will that Jesus be killed not Gods!-------> “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”

The Father and Son used the rejection of the Gospel for a greater purpose. Forgiveness for sins was never conditional to the cross, that was an afterthought.

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Someone died?

 

[Clara Tea]

Spiritually the Church is the bride of Christ, and he has many Spiritual sons and daughters.

I agree, Prophecy is often symbolism, not literal, and it may not have been talking about Christ!

But I'm speaking to Christians in the OP, and it is a common Christian interpretation, that Isaiah 53 is a Christ, (the sacrificial suffering lamb of God) the suffering servant (Messiah) Prophecy!

I hope he's better now.

 

[Clara Tea]

Of course. Do you really think anyone could kill God without God wanting it to happen?
Of course when it says he was pleased you have to understand that doesn't mean God was having a party as Jesus died. He was pleased, why? Because it was his plan all along to save us. I'm glad you see that it is a prophecy because lots of people try to deny that it's obviously about the crucifixion.

Maybe, to God, a trip to heaven is like a Club Med vacation? However, did God have to allow Jesus to be tortured to death? Maybe God felt that Jesus had to understand human suffering, and the only way to truly understand is to suffer as well?

Perhaps we are not smart enough to understand the workings of Gods?

 

[Clara Tea]

That can't be Jesus. One reason is that Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Another is that Jesus, according to all the stories, sired no children ("seed").

Maybe Jesus didn't just hang out with the boys, but he had women with him, too? If so, maybe there was the pitter patter of little feet on the surface of water?