Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[PruePhillip]

Nope. There is just the messiah king. There is no messiah redeemer.

True, IF you are an Orthodox Jew.
There is no PLACE in Rabbinic Jewry for a Redeemer.
You see that with Jesus - even those who followed Jesus and those who
came out to welcome Him with palm leaves were still confused that He
had to be 'lifted up' and offer His life for the Jews and Gentiles. The Jew
was content that the daily sacrifice took away their sin, as Moses ordained.
Moses was the 'meekest man in all the world' but he spoke of the Messiah
as being 'like me.' And five centuries before Moses Jacob spoke of this
Messiah as ending the Jewish nation. I love how Jacob describes this
man, 'He to whom all things belong.' And Daniel, during the Babylonian
exile, spoke of this Messiah as 'the anointed one', cut off by Rome when
the temple, Jerusalem and Israel itself is finished.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

True, IF you are an Orthodox Jew.
There is no PLACE in Rabbinic Jewry for a Redeemer.
You see that with Jesus - even those who followed Jesus and those who
came out to welcome Him with palm leaves were still confused that He
had to be 'lifted up' and offer His life for the Jews and Gentiles. The Jew
was content that the daily sacrifice took away their sin, as Moses ordained.
Moses was the 'meekest man in all the world' but he spoke of the Messiah
as being 'like me.' And five centuries before Moses Jacob spoke of this
Messiah as ending the Jewish nation. I love how Jacob describes this
man, 'He to whom all things belong.' And Daniel, during the Babylonian
exile, spoke of this Messiah as 'the anointed one', cut off by Rome when
the temple, Jerusalem and Israel itself is finished.

I have not been an orthodox jew for quite some time. I currently attend a Conservative synagogue. You are right that there is no place in Judaism for a Redeemer Messiah -- because we do not attribute all sorts of passages of scripture that have nothing to do with the messiah to build up a false idea of what the messiah will be.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for GOD the LORD is my strength and song; and He is become my salvation.'

Since God is my savior, I need no other.

 

[PruePhillip]

I have not been an orthodox jew for quite some time. I currently attend a Conservative synagogue. You are right that there is no place in Judaism for a Redeemer Messiah -- because we do not attribute all sorts of passages of scripture that have nothing to do with the messiah to build up a false idea of what the messiah will be.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for GOD the LORD is my strength and song; and He is become my salvation.'

Since God is my savior, I need no other.

So who do you think David is speaking of in Psalm 22 and 69? It's clearly not himself.
Love these words, "All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to
the dust will kneel before him — those who cannot keep themselves alive. Posterity
will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. They will proclaim his
righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So who do you think David is speaking of in Psalm 22 and 69? It's clearly not himself.
Love these words, "All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to
the dust will kneel before him — those who cannot keep themselves alive. Posterity
will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. They will proclaim his
righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!

In psalms 22 and 69 David is writing from first person, meaning he is talking about himself.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying with this goats and sheep stuff. The messiah will be a man, but he will be a king, not a redeemer.

So then is it all Jews will have to go back to Israel and crown a king?

 

[YoursTrue]

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying with this goats and sheep stuff. The messiah will be a man, but he will be a king, not a redeemer.

Well, I'd like for you to answer about Jews going back to Israel, and I included the idea about genetic warranty, meaning if you think a person has to prove he's "Jewish." Or a Jew. What do you think? In order for what you think is comprising Israel to have a king.

 

[PruePhillip]

In psalms 22 and 69 David is writing from first person, meaning he is talking about himself.

Absolutely not correct.
I presume this is some default position of Jewish Orthodoxy - it doesn't make a lot of sense but it's the best fit.
Kind of like people saying that UFO sightings was just Venus or Jupiter - kind of lame but you have to 'explain'
things somehow.
What David wrote was not his own experience.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So then is it all Jews will have to go back to Israel and crown a king?

Don't forget that the messiah ushers in an era of worldwide peace between the nations.

But yeah, in general, the Tanakh tells us a whole lot more about the messianic era than the messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, I'd like for you to answer about Jews going back to Israel, and I included the idea about genetic warranty, meaning if you think a person has to prove he's "Jewish." Or a Jew. What do you think? In order for what you think is comprising Israel to have a king.

I don't worry about the details. The messiah will take care of all that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Absolutely not correct.
I presume this is some default position of Jewish Orthodoxy - it doesn't make a lot of sense but it's the best fit.
Kind of like people saying that UFO sightings was just Venus or Jupiter - kind of lame but you have to 'explain'
things somehow.
What David wrote was not his own experience.

I think I've told you before. I am not an orthodox Jew. I attend a Conservative synagogue. I haven't been orthodox for years.

 

[PruePhillip]

I think I've told you before. I am not an orthodox Jew. I attend a Conservative synagogue. I haven't been orthodox for years.

I didn't say you were. Don't even know you. Just trying to presuppose the default Orthodox position.
At a Sabbath meal on Friday a Jew asked for chapters for him to read - he was going to read from
Isaiah. I suggested Isaiah 53. After some fumbling he said he didn't have that chapter in his book.

 

[ElishaElijah]

They portray a time of barbarous henotheistic people with a matching barbarous God, neither of which becomes very civilized till after the Babylonian captivity. The morality attributed to God ─ invasive wars, massacres of populations, mass rapes, human sacrifices, women as property, slavery, murderous religious intolerance &c ─ is a valuable sociological record, but an appalling moral guide for people living in the present century.

What are you talking about? We have a horrendous, immoral society right now, we just use catch phrases and excuses to cover up the depravity. We are more sophisticated at justifying this evil generation IMV.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel. If you consult any Jewish or Christian scholar who's objective about such things, you'll find they all agree.

Except they all don’t agree, even the experts recorded in Scripture didn’t agree, some of them became believers.

 

[ElishaElijah]

That can't be Jesus. One reason is that Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Another is that Jesus, according to all the stories, sired no children ("seed").

Not sure I follow your reasoning, are you saying Jesus cannot have children, born of the Spirit? Hebrews 2:13.
You say for these reasons Isaiah 53 isn’t about Jesus Christ except the Scriptures themselves are clear that it is, except in the eyes of unbelievers who deny the Truth. IMV and many others.

 

[PruePhillip]

Ahm, it doesn't say it was Sodom ─ it says it may have been a model for the Sodom story.

Nonetheless fascinating if true ─ they certainly describe a puzzle. And what sheer rotten luck to be living in this tiny area of the earth that represented the town, and have a really chunky meteor coming through the roof!

Sodom and Gomorrah were cities of the 'well watered plain of Jordan.' No way of knowing which city is which
I suppose - humans were reduced to splinters and bricks melted.
But to say this account 'inspired' the biblical narrative is a bit sly. This is 'Skeptics of the Gaps' stuff - skeptics
will shift position from 'There was no such event' to 'this event inspired a myth.'
Happens frequently as archaelogy uncovers the history of the Bronze and Iron Age Middle East.

Liked how one archaelogist put it, 'The bible is guilty until proven innocent.'

 

[PruePhillip]

They portray a time of barbarous henotheistic people with a matching barbarous God, neither of which becomes very civilized till after the Babylonian captivity. The morality attributed to God ─ invasive wars, massacres of populations, mass rapes, human sacrifices, women as property, slavery, murderous religious intolerance &c ─ is a valuable sociological record, but an appalling moral guide for people living in the present century.
Your mother told you that?

And don't forget, the Hebrews were anti LGBT. They cared nothing for the environment. They used animals as beasts of burden.
They had no bill of rights. They couldn't carry guns. Women weren't allow to leave their kids and serve in the army. They couldn't
do drugs. Pornography essentially was repressed. They had corporal punishment for students.

This is called PRESENTISM.
A lovely example of behavior is given in what is called the New Testament, a part of the Christian bible. And good examples of
Christian doctrine is found in Matt 5,6 and 7. Suggest you read it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I didn't say you were. Don't even know you. Just trying to presuppose the default Orthodox position.
At a Sabbath meal on Friday a Jew asked for chapters for him to read - he was going to read from
Isaiah. I suggested Isaiah 53. After some fumbling he said he didn't have that chapter in his book.

He was using a Chumash. A Chumash is a book that has the complete Torah along with commentary, and has the accompanying Haftarah (the readings from the prophets). Each reading from the prophets is designed to compliment the weekly Torah Portion. It is a portion of the Prophets from the Tanakh -- there are sections of the Prophets that are not read simply because they didn't match up with any Torah Portion. Isaiah 53 is not in the Chumash for exactly that reason -- there is no Torah portion that it compliments.

If he had had a Tanakh, he would have had Isaiah 53. The Tanakh has the same books in it that the Protestant Old Testament has, but in a different order.

 

[blü 2]

What are you talking about? We have a horrendous, immoral society right now, we just use catch phrases and excuses to cover up the depravity. We are more sophisticated at justifying this evil generation IMV.

The question is whether God is said to sanction the evil ─ invasive war, massacre of populations, mass rape, human sacrifice, women as property, slavery, murderous religious intolerance ─ or not. And if so, whether such a God is fit for purpose.

 

[blü 2]

Not sure I follow your reasoning, are you saying Jesus cannot have children, born of the Spirit? Hebrews 2:13.

No, simply that none of the NT stories suggests he married, let alone fathered any children.

You say for these reasons Isaiah 53 isn’t about Jesus Christ except the Scriptures themselves are clear that it is, except in the eyes of unbelievers who deny the Truth. IMV and many others.

The Truth is that if you were Jewish in the 1st century CE, there was nothing about the Jesus described in the NT that would cause you to think he was a messiah ─ he was not a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, and he was never anointed by the priesthood, though 'anointed by the priesthood' is what 'messiah' means.

And the Truth is that Jesus is nowhere mentioned in the Tanakh, and that all the purported "prophecies" of Jesus that Christians like to point to are not about Jesus. Instead, if you take Mark as the first substantial purported biography of Jesus, and template for those of Matthew, Luke and John, you can see that the author selected stories from the Tanakh which appealed to him as "messianic prophecies" and moved his hero through those stories. The author of Matthew is particularly blatant with this, eg

He requires Mary to have been a virgin because the LXX in translating Isaiah 7:14 had rendered Hebrew 'almah, young woman, as parthenos, virgin;

He invents the unhistoric 'Taxation Census' story to get Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to “fulfill” Micah 5:2

He invents the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1.

He absurdly sits Jesus across a foal and a donkey to ride into Jerusalem "to fulfill prophecy" (Matthew 21:2-5) in Zechariah 9.9.​

 

[blü 2]

Sodom and Gomorrah were cities of the 'well watered plain of Jordan.' No way of knowing which city is which
I suppose - humans were reduced to splinters and bricks melted.
But to say this account 'inspired' the biblical narrative is a bit sly. This is 'Skeptics of the Gaps' stuff - skeptics
will shift position from 'There was no such event' to 'this event inspired a myth.'
Happens frequently as archaelogy uncovers the history of the Bronze and Iron Age Middle East.

Liked how one archaelogist put it, 'The bible is guilty until proven innocent.'

Academics will cease to use the bible when the bible ceases to be useful in obtaining grants, the lifeblood of field work in particular. Nor does the occasional headline of this kind in the popular press hurt a career as a rule.