ISIS as Salafī, or why this label is accurate

[LuisDantas]

I think what you are saying here is so very important. How a person behaves ( "What ISIS did and is still doing" ) should be the metric. Whether or not terrorists label themselves "Muslims" is a distraction.

Actually, it is a significant consideration.

ISIS hardly makes any secret of its goals or motivations. Muslims should IMO take their share of responsibility for failing to discourage such interpretations.

 

[Audie]

Funny people to not give Assad credit for being a minority ruling over a majority with no affiliation to himself. America love inflating other leaders as dictators often and its sickening. A bad leader is not the same as a tyrant

For all the wrong moves, it all
makes sense whenyou see that
the purpose is keeping potentially
anti US countries and coalitions
weak and disorganized.

Self interest and amorality in action.

 

[james dixon]

now that it is broken we have ISIS.

I have read reports that basically states that Israel wants to create discontent between one Arab country against another because it furthers their own cause and to do this effectively, they even masquerade as Muslim’s themselves doing terrible things.

Do you think there is any truth to this?

-

 

[james dixon]

VT is a fake news propaganda website.... You have nothing.

Oh no, not another trumpit, I provided five (5) different sources.
-

 

[dybmh]

Muslims should IMO take their share of responsibility for failing to discourage such interpretations.

I think Muslims **do** discourage it. But if a person wants to be violent, then they will find ways to justify it.

Even if all theistic religions vanished from the planet, violent dominant people would seek violence and dominance.

 

[Gandalf]

I have read reports that basically states that Israel wants to create discontent between one Arab country against another because it furthers their own cause and to do this effectively, they even masquerade as Muslim’s themselves doing terrible things.

Do you think there is any truth to this?

-

Israel has made a massive effort in utilizing subterfuge and espionage to its utmost content more so than any other nation I know of. I doubt their aim would be to create discontent between Arab nations as this would implode back upon themselves and result in them being attacked which isn't ideal for a nation surrounded by enemies.

I find no rational validity in this notion per se because it is a very dangerous game that could ruin Israel quickly leaving no benefit.

Now I do believe Israel purposefully uses the US as a proxy for its attacks and involvement in the Arab nation, this I am pretty sure without a doubt.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think Muslims **do** discourage it. But if a person wants to be violent, then they will find ways to justify it.

Sure. But I do think that it would happen significantly less often if the Qur'an did not exist.

Even if all theistic religions vanished from the planet, violent dominant people would seek violence and dominance.

I don't think that I would call Islaam a religion, personally.

 

[james dixon]

Now I do believe Israel purposefully uses the US as a proxy for its attacks and involvement in the Arab nation, this I am pretty sure without a doubt.

The 51st State of the USA will be~~

For all practical purposes Israel is America’s 51st State. The US gives Israel 10’s of $billions of dollars each year and yet American Citizen’s did not vote for this.

What’s up?

I think it is time for a national vote on this.

Either we bring in Israel as our 51st State and they pay their fair share or we stop the $billions in handouts.

How do you vote-?

This report provides an overview of U.S. foreign assistance to Israel. It includes a review of past aid programs, data on annual assistance, and analysis of current issues. For general information on Israel, see CRS Report RL33476, Israel: Background and U.S. Relations, by Jim Zanotti. Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date, the United States has provided Israel $127.4 billion (current, or non-inflation-adjusted, dollars) in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received significant economic assistance.

BTW We, as in American citizens owe Israel nothing, nada, zip so I ask--

In Jerusalem Israeli’s spit on Christians and the US press never reports it.

What’s up------?

Congress is currently debating a $95 billion assistance package to Israel this week in the House.
Why, is all I ask
-

 

[kiwimac]

I'm not sure I agree with the OP or perhaps it is more accurate to say I agree but with conditions. ISIS is clearly related to Islam but I note that the majority of people fighting for ISIS were found to be under-educated in what being a Muslim implies. Can a person be called a Muslim if they have never read or studied the Qur'an? If they do not understand the Sunnah or even without a passing knowledge of the Pillars?

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure I agree with the OP or perhaps it is more accurate to say I agree but with conditions. ISIS is clearly related to Islam but I note that the majority of people fighting for ISIS were found to be under-educated in what being a Muslim implies. Can a person be called a Muslim if they have never read or studied the Qur'an? If they do not understand the Sunnah or even without a passing knowledge of the Pillars?

I take it that you expect some significant differences to exist, and that those would make ISIS remarkably ignorant of the basics of Islaam when contrasted with the random Muslim?

I would make the opposite bet, personally.

 

[dybmh]

Sure. But I do think that it would happen significantly less often if the Qur'an did not exist.

Yeah, I know you do. But that fact is, that the Qur'an does exist. And nothing is going to change that. Islam is growing, and I don't think that is going to change either.

I'm not asking you to change your point of view. To the contrary, I think it's tremendously valuable.

That's all I want to say right now. I think your point of view is very valuable.

 

[Komori]

I note that the majority of people fighting for ISIS were found to be under-educated in what being a Muslim implies. Can a person be called a Muslim if they have never read or studied the Qur'an? If they do not understand the Sunnah or even without a passing knowledge of the Pillars?

I take issue with this line of thinking. It is true, at least from what I have read, that many ISIS fighters are "religious novices" and consider themselves as having a 'weak' knowledge of the sharīʿah.

[T]he majority of respondents seemed to have little knowledge of religion. When asked about this, one respondent stated that ‘we know jihad by intuition. Every Muslim knows it by intuition. You don’t need to study it.’ Hence, there is a tendency among some to explain their decision to go to Syria as a form of Jihad, although very few seemed aware of the conditions and stipulations of Jihad in Islam.

• https://www.un.org/en/counterterrorism/assets/img/Report_Final_20170727.pdf

This, however, isn't that extraordinary.

The relative weakness of someone's knowledge of the Shariah does not necessarily say much about how religious they are or want to be. For one thing, a depth of knowledge of the Shariah is not particularly common for observant Muslims, and it is in many ways a construct of outsiders to think that it should be [...] [D]eep study of the Shariah was never particularly common among the masses in the Muslim world, and was generally reserved for the 'ulama, who devoted their lives to the study of these issues. Criticizing the depth of someone's religious feeling or even knowledge on the basis of their lack of knowledge of Shariah would be like questioning an American's sense of civic association because they didn't make their career as a lawyer.

• https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Andrew-Lebovich_FINAL-2.pdf

And this kind of analysis leads us into this odd, almost Marxist methodology of completely ignoring the possible religious motivations of people who join ISIS. Some simply do not consider the very real possibility that many of these people, although they may be far from experts in Islamic law, have studied the Qurʾān, the ahadith, and the rulings of the scholars and have come on their own terms to the (albeit incorrect) conclusion that ISIS is upon the straight path.

Limited knowledge of an area of Islam traditionally left to dedicated experts says little about the contours of individual religious belief; if anything, it reflects our own projections onto others about modernity and education. Someone can be an ardent and even (dare I say) informed believer in the cause and justness of the Islamic State without having much knowledge of the Shariah. And the group is certainly happy to propagate its own interpretations through instruction and the dissemination of texts on the Shariah.

• https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Andrew-Lebovich_FINAL-2.pdf

By reducing the motivations of ISIS fighters to merely economic or emotional ones, or attributing their actions to 'brainwashing' as some have done, and ignoring the real religious dynamics at play (among which is the modern Salafī movement), we are making a severe error, and that is one of my central points here.

 

[sun rise]

As an additional note, I have a problem with repeated demands that Muslims denounce terrorism.

When are Americans going to denounce all the crimes we've committed and are committing now by our government? When are Hindus going to denounce the violence committed against Muslims? When are Buddhists going to denounce the crimes committed against Muslims? When is the world going to denounce the brutal suppression of Chinese Muslims?

What would it take for some who want to see more denunciations of Muslim terrorism to be satisfied? From what I've seen so far, nothing would ever be enough. I'd like to believe that is not so, but I've seen no evidence that any amount of rejection would be enough for at least some.

 

[Komori]

What would it take for some who want to see more denunciations of Muslim terrorism to be satisfied?

Such people will not be satisfied unless Muslims disappear.

﴾ وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ ﴿

"And never will the Jews or the Christians be pleased with you until you follow their religion" (Qur'an 2:120).​

 

[Audie]

Such people will not be satisfied unless Muslims disappear.

﴾ وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ ﴿

"And never will the Jews or the Christians be pleased with you until you follow their religion" (Qur'an 2:120).​

In what way would the world not be better off if islam did vanish?

 

[dybmh]

In what way would the world not be better off if islam did vanish?

I would miss it. The idea makes me sad.

It sounds foolish to say it that way; but since I can only speak for myself, and I cannot predict the future...

 

[Audie]

I would miss it. The idea makes me sad.

It sounds foolish to say it that way; but since I can only speak for myself, and I cannot predict the future...

So you can think of no way the world would not
be better off without islam. Speaking for myself and
some few others, we would all be way better off.

 

[dybmh]

So you can think of no way the world would not
be better off without islam. Speaking for myself and
some few others, we would all be way better off.

All I'm saying is: no one knows what the world would be like if Islam vanished. Could be better, could be worse.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I think what you are saying here is so very important. How a person behaves ( "What ISIS did and is still doing" ) should be the metric. Whether or not terrorists label themselves "Muslims" is a distraction.

It is not for you to judge who is and is not a Muslim, if someone claims to be one, but God.

 

[dybmh]

It is not for you to judge who is and is not a Muslim, if someone claims to be one, but God.

Is this a mainstream / common belief among Muslims: "It's not for you to Judge... but God"?