Islam and Pantheism...

[ZoyaHayat]

That's a prejudice. You are claiming Islam is not fair because it doesn't fit with your beliefs. A Christian might come and claim Islam is not fair because we don't pray to Jesus or Mary, a Hindu might come and complain, how come Islam allow you to eat meat!!!

I would understand if you said that Islam is not the right religion for *you*, but i will never understand your generalizations.

OMG!!!

I did not mean it in that way-i was'nt generalising Islam at all...

Yes Islam is'nt the right religion for me-i agree...

But there is no need to get all angry and worked up for something which i did'nt mean xxx

 

[ZoyaHayat]

I am not a Muslim, but just from my own speculation I have reached the conclusion that the nature of God (how He manifests Himself) is impossible to know beyond a shadow of a doubt. But, God is omnipotent, so I'd imagine He can manifest himself in whichever way he wanted to. So He could be a pantheistic entity, or a more dualistic entity. In truth, if God is omnipotent, God is all of the different forms. They are simply labels we apply to Him.

But, that is just free thinking. I am not knowledgable in Islamic scripture, so I cannot provide any. But form my own guess, I'd say that Pantheism doesn't play a huge role in Islam, aside from maybe in a poetic sense.

Food for thought.

I agree with you Boethiah xxx

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

As a response to the OP:

Yes, Islam states that ALlah is separated from creation. Some sects of sufis beleive everything is part of Allah aazza wajjal, therefore everything is a God, therefore we come back to polytheism which is the total opposite of Islam.

Once there was a man walking with one of these "saints". While they were walking, the man saw a died dog so he asked the "saint" , is this part of God too?

I think you understand what I mean, the vice versa thing is not part of Islam at all thanks God.

And ALlah knows best

 

[Storm]

As a response to the OP:

Yes, Islam states that ALlah is separated from creation. Some sects of sufis beleive everything is part of Allah aazza wajjal, therefore everything is a God, therefore we come back to polytheism which is the total opposite of Islam.

Once there was a man walking with one of these "saints". While they were walking, the man saw a died dog so he asked the "saint" , is this part of God too?

I think you understand what I mean, the vice versa thing is not part of Islam at all thanks God.

And ALlah knows best

There's a pretty big difference between pantheism and polytheism.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Is a part of God a God? Or at least thats how I see it.

But the point still remains, is the died dog also a part of God?? What does it make of God?

 

[Storm]

Is a part of God a God? Or at least thats how I see it.

Not really, no more than a skin scraping is a person.

But the point still remains, is the died dog also a part of God??

To the pantheist, yes.

What does it make of God?

Well, obviously you find it demeaning, but I don't.

 

[GURSIKH]

Thank you Madhuri for your reply ...

But what i dont understand is...if Pantheism is a complete opposite concept to Islam-then why have many Saints in their poetry expressed Pantheism?...

For example:
A couplet by Saint Kabir mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Saahib-please read verse 1:

Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 1349

A couplet by Saint Farid Uddin Ganj-e-Shakar in the Sri Guru Granth Saahib-please read verse 74-75:

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib


This has confused me further more-many Muslims say these 'Sufi' Saints are Muslim...what i dont understand-if they are Muslim then how can they express a concept which is not within Islam? :S...

xxx

Hi Zoya


i too feel The Farid Kabir Nanak sahib differ from Islam in this regard . its beauty of Guru Granth Sahib all present at one place , you know when 400 years of compilation SGGS was celebrated few years back , Rumallas were taken from Pakpattan belonging to Baba Farid ji .

these teachings of Farid ,KABIR , Nanak were present on planet from begining , former name of Guru Granth sahib before Tenth Nanak gave Guruship to SGGS was ADI GRANTH ( Primal Granth ) ,



thanks for sharing the shabad
ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥
Prabhaatee:

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥॥
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥॥
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

 

[ZoyaHayat]

As a response to the OP:

Yes, Islam states that ALlah is separated from creation. Some sects of sufis beleive everything is part of Allah aazza wajjal, therefore everything is a God, therefore we come back to polytheism which is the total opposite of Islam.

Once there was a man walking with one of these "saints". While they were walking, the man saw a died dog so he asked the "saint" , is this part of God too?

I think you understand what I mean, the vice versa thing is not part of Islam at all thanks God.

And ALlah knows best

Thank you Fatima for your reply xxx

 

[ZoyaHayat]

Hi Zoya


i too feel The Farid Kabir Nanak sahib differ from Islam in this regard . its beauty of Guru Granth Sahib all present at one place , you know when 400 years of compilation SGGS was celebrated few years back , Rumallas were taken from Pakpattan belonging to Baba Farid ji .

these teachings of Farid ,KABIR , Nanak were present on planet from begining , former name of Guru Granth sahib before Tenth Nanak gave Guruship to SGGS was ADI GRANTH ( Primal Granth ) ,



thanks for sharing the shabad
ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥
Prabhaatee:

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥॥
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥॥
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

I agree with you Gursikh xxx

 

[Twig pentagram]

Is a part of God a God? Or at least thats how I see it.

But the point still remains, is the died dog also a part of God?? What does it make of God?

I see reality through the eyes of a pantheist, and yes a dead dog is God too. Your second question is what does it make of God. It makes God everything.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Your second question is what does it make of God. It makes God everything.

Please be open minded. How a died dog can be a part of God and not degrade Him? I should say that any reasonable person can see it clearly, but people are different so you may want to tell me how Inshallah.


Zoya You're welcome at any time

 

[nameless]

Please be open minded. How a died dog can be a part of God and not degrade Him? I should say that any reasonable person can see it clearly, but people are different so you may want to tell me how Inshallah.

la ilaha il allah, there is nothing but allah. Dog being not part of allah is to limit allah. Yes, its allah's part which gets degrades.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

la ilaha il allah, there is nothing but allah.

Here lies the problem. The translation of la ilaha illa llah is not theres nothing but allah but theres no God but ALlah ; ilaha means God. So yes, the idea still remains dog being part of God degrades Him.

 

[A-ManESL]

Here lies the problem. The translation of la ilaha illa llah is not theres nothing but allah but theres no God but ALlah ; ilaha means God. So yes, the idea still remains dog being part of God degrades Him.

2:115 Whersoever you may look there is the face of God.

So isn't a dog also the face of God?

I am personally with Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi who says in the Masnavi, "in the shop for Unity (wahdat); anything that you see there except the One is an idol."

I guess to each his own. Regards.

P.S. : This link may be helpful.

 

[ZoyaHayat]

2:115 Whersoever you may look there is the face of God.

So isn't a dog also the face of God?

I am personally with Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi who says in the Masnavi, "in the shop for Unity (wahdat); anything that you see there except the One is an idol."

I guess to each his own. Regards.

P.S. : This link may be helpful.

A-ManESL i never knew such a verse did exist...wowwwwwww...

I do agree with you mwuahhhhh xxx

 

[A-ManESL]

Dear Guys ...

I have a question:what does the religion Islam have to say of Pantheism?...

Pantheism is the belief that the creation is in the creator and vice versa...

Thank you xxx

It might be interesting to see how Imam Ghazali (who certain Western scholars have called the greatest Muslim after Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)) has treated this issue.

In Imam Ghazali's doctrine of the soul there is very little difference between the soul and God and in essence and qualities the two resemble each other closely. This may be thought of close to pantheism. However, Imam Ghazali makes one imprtant exception: there is a quality which is God's alone, and no one else partakes in it and that is the quality of self-subsistence. God is self-subsistent and everything exists through him and not through its own essence.

He says, " Nay, things through their own existence have nothing but non existence. Existence comes to them only from something else, by way of a loan.

Imam Ghazali approved of the pantheistic formula, "la huwa illa huwa", meaning, "There is no It, but It".

In a sense you can think of Imam Ghazali's approach being panentheistic. He took a lenient view of the pantheistic expressions of some of the Sufis, who uttered things like, "I am the Creative Truth", "Within this Robe is naught but God" etc. He never condemned them, and the most he said regarding them was this,

The worlds of passionate lovers in the state of ecstasy should be concealed and not spoken of.

In the Amman Message, which was signed by virtually all Muslim heads of state, various international Islamic scholarly assemblies, over 500 leading Muslim scholars, constituting a practical Ijma, the validity of Sufism as propounded by Imam Ghazali was upheld. So, in theory, at least, you can say that Islam recognizes the validity of such kind of thought, albeit with certain caveats.

xxx

 

[Twig pentagram]

Please be open minded. How a died dog can be a part of God and not degrade Him? I should say that any reasonable person can see it clearly, but people are different so you may want to tell me how Inshallah.


Zoya You're welcome at any time

How can reality be degraded? It is what it is, everything that exist has a purpose. You think God is some pure and beautiful exalted being or entity, and I don't. I think reality is God therefore everything that exist is divine. There is no seperation from God and me. I am real, I'm in reality, and so is dead dogs. WE ARE GOD.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

As for the verse mentionned, then if you read it in its context its talk about the qiblah ( the direction) of prayer. It was said because of some people who did not know wheres the qiblah so each one prayed on a different side, then ALlah azza wajjal sent down that wherever direction you turn you'll find Him because Allah azza wajjal owns the west and the east as it says in the beginning of the verse:

[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]115. And to All�h belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn yourselves or your faces there is the Face of All�h (and He is High above, over His Throne). Surely! All�h is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knowing.

So He subhanah is everywhere with His knowledge, not with His presence. Because as the prophet salallahu 'alayhi wassalam asked the slave where is Allah so she pointed to the sky so he ordered her master to release her because he said she is a true mu'mina ( believer)

Therefore Allah azza wajjal is above the throne, and is everywhere with His knowledge.

As for quoting Imam al Ghazali, then you should be careful that his thoughts were objected by everyone because he started beleiving the pantheism thing, but later before he died he repented from that thanks God and you can search the net if you want to get sure.

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

WE ARE GOD.

Then worship me.

Please, have a minute and think of all the stuffs like:
muck of animals , god?
baby when he first go out of his mothers womb, all dirty, god?
when you throw out, when you sneeze, when you go to toilet ?

God is some pure and beautiful exalted being or entity

Why worship Him if He's not?

 

[Moonstone]

Please be open minded. How a died dog can be a part of God and not degrade Him? I should say that any reasonable person can see it clearly, but people are different so you may want to tell me how Inshallah.


Zoya You're welcome at any time

It's all about differing opinions, and different perceptions of God. Keeping the mind open is always a good thing to do.

x

 

[Storm]

Then worship me.

Key word, "WE." Not you; not me. We. Why should one part of God worship another?