Islam and people who wear the hijab

[Pegg]

But who is the one who said I am raising up against them the Medes?

Its simply a case of God 'allowing' it to happen. In hebrew the way it is expressed is God 'causes' it...

It doesnt actually mean that he orchestrated and directed the events. It just means that he allowed it to happen. We see the same expression in the book of Genesis when God is pronouncing the consequences of Adam and Eve's disobedience. He says to Adam that the earth will grow thorns and weeds and it will be hard to toil the ground, and to Eve he says that he will increase her birth pain and she will be dominated by man....neither of these consequences are caused by God, they are not part of his plan nor do they reflect his perfect standards, rather they will occur because God will allow the consequences of their actions to come upon them.

Its the same with the pronouncement about the Medes attacking Babylon. God doesnt orchestrate the event, but he allows it to happen which is why he says "I am raising up the medes..."

 

[Pegg]

Really? Are you sure the bible doesn't speak of violence against other people? Christians are the last ones who dare speaking of violence in other faiths scriptures. Do you really want me to dig up the bible now and go that road? Jesus himself called for Jihad along with his disciples before they got caught, according to the bible itself.

You would need to show me the verses you are refering to because i've never seen such calls for war.

What i know is that Jesus taught his followers to put down their swords and make peace and show love:

Matt 5:43 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous


Romans 12;20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

Luke 6;29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your outer garment, do not withhold the inner garment either. 30 Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away, do not ask them back.

Romans 12:14 Keep on blessing those who persecute; bless and do not curse.


Matt 26:51 But look! one of those with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest, taking off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword

How could a christian take up arms and go to war when the scriptures clearly tell us not to do so. We are told to love our enemies, not fight them.

True christians keep away from war and refuse to fight.

 

[TashaN]

You would need to show me the verses you are refering to because i've never seen such calls for war.

What i know is that Jesus taught his followers to put down their swords and make peace and show love:

Matt 5:43 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous


Romans 12;20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

Luke 6;29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your outer garment, do not withhold the inner garment either. 30 Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away, do not ask them back.

Romans 12:14 Keep on blessing those who persecute; bless and do not curse.


Matt 26:51 But look! one of those with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest, taking off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword

How could a christian take up arms and go to war when the scriptures clearly tell us not to do so. We are told to love our enemies, not fight them.

True christians keep away from war and refuse to fight.

Luke 22:35-36
"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"

Luke 22:38
". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".

Matthew 26:51
"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and
struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear."

 

[TashaN]

Its simply a case of God 'allowing' it to happen. In hebrew the way it is expressed is God 'causes' it...

It doesnt actually mean that he orchestrated and directed the events. It just means that he allowed it to happen. We see the same expression in the book of Genesis when God is pronouncing the consequences of Adam and Eve's disobedience. He says to Adam that the earth will grow thorns and weeds and it will be hard to toil the ground, and to Eve he says that he will increase her birth pain and she will be dominated by man....neither of these consequences are caused by God, they are not part of his plan nor do they reflect his perfect standards, rather they will occur because God will allow the consequences of their actions to come upon them.

Its the same with the pronouncement about the Medes attacking Babylon. God doesnt orchestrate the event, but he allows it to happen which is why he says "I am raising up the medes..."

Are you saying God in the bible use RAPE as a way of punishing people?

 

[Sabour]

It is not "somewhat similar to marriage" when you are a RAPED SLAVE!




*

They are not raped, this is what your bias tell you. You are not even ready to get rid of your ego and read it properly, you walk around and blindly repeat what you hear.

 

[Ingledsva]

It is not "somewhat similar to marriage" when you are a RAPED SLAVE!

They are not raped, this is what your bias tell you. You are not even ready to get rid of your ego and read it properly, you walk around and blindly repeat what you hear.

We hear this kind of crap constantly from the religions of Abraham with their laws that allowed/allow slaves and rape!


When you have been taken in war as a slave, and then have to have sex with your slave master, or another slave whom he designates - to create more slaves - THAT IS RAPE!


No matter how you try to get around it - it is RAPE!



*

 

[Ingledsva]

'enjoy' does not mean have sex with.

Surely you can see it does not mean have 'sex with all the women children and livestock'

to enjoy the spoils of war means to derive benefit from those things. They could be utilized by the isrealites. The captive women could become wives for the unmarried men.

The rules governing the Isrealites were as follows:

Deut 21:10 “If you go to war against your enemies and Jehovah your God defeats them for you and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman and you are attracted to her and you want to take her as your wife, 12 you may bring her into your house. She should then shave her head, attend to her nails, 13 and remove the clothing of her captivity, and dwell in your house. She will weep for her father and her mother a whole month, and afterward you may have relations with her; you will become her husband and she will become your wife. 14 But if you are not pleased with her, you should then let her go wherever she wishes. But you may not sell her for money or treat her harshly, since you have humiliated her.


Once the woman was his wife, she had all the same legal rights as a free woman because she was now a free woman. Her marriage dignified her and she was no longer a captive...she was as free as every other Isrealite woman. And you might notice, that there was to be no sex... it was only when the man had sexual relations with her that she legally became his 'wife' and he was her legal 'husband'

Just as I told him - This is still RAPE!


It does not matter that they try to call these sex slaves "wives."


They have killed their families, kidnapped them for sex, are holding them against their will, etc.


How exactly would letting them scream and cry for 30 days, make the slave master then sc****ng them, - not RAPE?


Both of these religions of Abraham held sex slaves, and RAPED young women/girls.




*

 

[Sabour]

We hear this kind of crap constantly from the religions of Abraham with their laws that allowed/allow slaves and rape!


When you have been taken in war as a slave, and then have to have sex with your slave master, or another slave whom he designates - to create more slaves - THAT IS RAPE!


No matter how you try to get around it - it is RAPE!



*

Well have you thought of the idea that she might accept for example, have you seen if there is such a possibility in Islam? or it is just that your confirmation bias won't allow you to do that?

Have you compared it with what other armies would do to women and children of people who were trying to kill them? Have you asked about the rights Islam gives to these people instead of today's trend of wiping every one? Have you compared what Islam came with compared to what was already practiced?

 

[Ingledsva]

We hear this kind of crap constantly from the religions of Abraham with their laws that allowed/allow slaves and rape!


When you have been taken in war as a slave, and then have to have sex with your slave master, or another slave whom he designates - to create more slaves - THAT IS RAPE!


No matter how you try to get around it - it is RAPE!

Well have you thought of the idea that she might accept for example, have you seen if there is such a possibility in Islam? or it is just that your confirmation bias won't allow you to do that?

Have you compared it with what other armies would do to women and children of people who were trying to kill them? Have you asked about the rights Islam gives to these people instead of today's trend of wiping every one? Have you compared what Islam came with compared to what was already practiced?

LOL! It is ridiculous how far the followers of the religions of Abraham will give up normal morality, in order to qualify the lack of morality, in areas of their chosen religions!

Both religions said you could enslave and RAPE people! Get over it!


You cannot tell me that if I kill all of your family members including all of your little brothers and sisters, then take you for a life of slavery, then I allow you to scream and cry for a whole 30 days -


- AND -

- you supposedly are then going to say, I'm happy now - go ahead and Scr*w me! Or, I'd love to be your "wife" - but could you please clean the blood of my family off your shoes first, you're making the floor slick, honey?


Pure BULL! Such is RAPE! No matter how you try to get around it.


Also - it does not matter if other groups enslaved and RAPED people!


- ALL - of them are wrong!

I would NEVER dishonor myself, or my dead family, by marrying the enemy that murdered them! And neither would YOU! So quit defending such bull!


*

 

[Pegg]

Luke 22:35-36
"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"

Luke 22:38
". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".

Matthew 26:51
"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and
struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear."

these verses you've posted are not Jesus endorsing the use of warfare. He actually told his disciples to bring their swords, and then showed them that by example, that they were not to use them even when being attacked.

When Jesus was arrested, the high priests guards came to sieze him and Peter tried to defend Jesus by using his sword. Peter actually struck the soldier and cut off his ear.... thats when Jesus acted to correct his disciples and promptly healed the soldiers ear and told his disciple "put the sword in your its sheath" and "all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword"



Jesus did not endorse to use of weapons against his enemies and his disciples learned that lesson... for centuries, christians refused to participate in warfare because they knew exactly what Jesus had taught them.

 

[TashaN]

LOL! It is ridiculous how far the followers of the religions of Abraham will give up normal morality, in order to qualify the lack of morality, in areas of their chosen religions!

Both religions said you could enslave and RAPE people! Get over it!


You cannot tell me that if I kill all of your family members including all of your little brothers and sisters, then take you for a life of slavery, then I allow you to scream and cry for a whole 30 days -


- AND -

- you supposedly are then going to say, I'm happy now - go ahead and Scr*w me! Or, I'd love to be your "wife" - but could you please clean the blood of my family off your shoes first, you're making the floor slick, honey?


Pure BULL! Such is RAPE! No matter how you try to get around it.


Also - it does not matter if other groups enslaved and RAPED people!


- ALL - of them are wrong!

I would NEVER dishonor myself, or my dead family, by marrying the enemy that murdered them! And neither would YOU! So quit defending such bull!


*

You do have some valid points regarding forcing women to have sex. Since slavery is no longer legal these days, so i think i need to go back and search more about this topic and how it was dealt with in early Islam. I'll get back to you with answers once i'm done with my search "God willing".

 

[Pegg]

Are you saying God in the bible use RAPE as a way of punishing people?

no. Man uses rape as a way to punish people.

Gods one and only punishment for sin is death.

 

[Looncall]

Well have you thought of the idea that she might accept for example, have you seen if there is such a possibility in Islam? or it is just that your confirmation bias won't allow you to do that?

Have you compared it with what other armies would do to women and children of people who were trying to kill them? Have you asked about the rights Islam gives to these people instead of today's trend of wiping every one? Have you compared what Islam came with compared to what was already practiced?

Of more interest is what is happening now. I notice that both Boko Haram and ISIS kidnap, rape and enslave women. That behavior seems to turn up wherever there is fanatical islam. It seems to be a feature of the religion.

Historically, that behaviour did not even require fanaticism. I suppose that's some kind of progress.

 

[Chev Chelios]

You said it, some Muslims, in the same manner that some Christians will blow up abortion clinics. Is that in the Bible too?

Wow. Did you actually draw a parallel between the worldwide slaughter being carried out in the name of Islam to the bombing of a handful of abortion clinics in the US?? A slight dissimulation there I think! Sorry pal, but the analogy you just used is astounding. To compare a couple of nut jobs (if you will), to the literally thousands of Islamic militia involving/or supported by millions of Moslems worldwide which is carrying out heartbreaking terror such as the hundreds of thousands of people fleeing a virtual genocide by ISIS in the past few weelks alone is a complete fallacy. To discuss Islamic terrorism then Christian terrorism is a complete non-sequitar. How on earth people can even try and peddle such fallacious arguments is beyond me and makes a mockery of such a serious topic.

 

[Chev Chelios]

Really? Are you sure the bible doesn't speak of violence against other people? Christians are the last ones who dare speaking of violence in other faiths scriptures. Do you really want me to dig up the bible now and go that road? Jesus himself called for Jihad along with his disciples before they got caught, according to the bible itself.

Continuing this theme of Islam v Christianity….

No. The Koran is quite different – it explicitly commands Moslems to violence and nothing like these commands are seen anywhere in the New Testament. So, in order for you to be credible you will need to quote violent passages which COMMAND (not mention/describes) violence and also do it from the New Testament only because it is the teachings of Jesus Christ that Christians look to for their spiritual guide. The Old Testament, which is often quoted to show Christianities violence, is relevant in a contextual/background sort of way but with the coming of Jesus, Christians were no longer under the old covenant but rather a new one - it is the example laid down by Jesus that Christians must abide by – so forget the OT in this regard.

The 'I bring not peace but a sword' verse is the only one I can think of that you could use but as a former Catholic I know how that was taught to me (violence will be bought upon those that follow Jesus) and it was quite believable when we consider the overwhelmingly pacifistic theme of Jesus’ sayings. Also – we can clearly see that this is a passage and NOT a command as we see in the Koran repeatedly and as ISIS (amongst others) currently quote.

 

[outhouse]

How on earth people can even try and peddle such fallacious arguments is beyond me and makes a mockery of such a serious topic.
.

Welcome to fundamentalism, and religions that require fundamantalist attitudes.

 

[Chev Chelios]

Welcome to fundamentalism, and religions that require fundamantalist attitudes.

Indeed.

I never cease to be astonished by the lengths to which Moslems and their apologists will go to extract Islam from any culpability with all the violence, bloodshed and all round intolerance it so readily evokes. These arguments, which are nothing short of deception, merely serve to create the breathing space for which this violence can operate and propagate. If all these so called 'moderate Moslems' were to hold their hands up and say "not in my name" and channel the vigorous efforts they display when whining about their feelings being hurt in response to the naming of a teddy bear or some cartoons then just maybe we can start seeing Islam move into the 21st century and with it the chance of it being able to satisfactorily co-exist with the rest of us. But these so called moderate Moslems never do - do they?

No, they are more than happy to come out and show their hypersensitivity issues when moaning about people like me, who long ago noticed the many troubling aspects of this faith, but yet they are simply unwilling to deal with these odious aspects of their faith which I and others point out. And so around and around we go. What never ceases to amaze me is that if Islam really was made up of a 99.9 % peaceable people then they ought to have no problem stamping out this 0.01% shouldn’t they? That for 1400 years they haven't is very telling indeed. We have a real problem with Islam - more Moslems would do well to admit this if they truly cared about their faith because like it or not, by remaining eternally silent they have become tarred with the same brush so that quite frankly - the grievances of the Moderate peaceful Moslem are absolutely irrelevant. They fill me with no hope that they can deal with the damage their faith is doing to so many and sadly they are the only ones who can.

 

[TashaN]

these verses you've posted are not Jesus endorsing the use of warfare. He actually told his disciples to bring their swords, and then showed them that by example, that they were not to use them even when being attacked.

When Jesus was arrested, the high priests guards came to sieze him and Peter tried to defend Jesus by using his sword. Peter actually struck the soldier and cut off his ear.... thats when Jesus acted to correct his disciples and promptly healed the soldiers ear and told his disciple "put the sword in your its sheath" and "all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword"



Jesus did not endorse to use of weapons against his enemies and his disciples learned that lesson... for centuries, christians refused to participate in warfare because they knew exactly what Jesus had taught them.

So are you saying that he asked them to actually buy weapons in order to teach them that they are bad and not to be used?

This is like you ask your son to go and buy a gun in order to bring it home and teach him by example that carrying guns are bad?

I hope you are not being serious in here.

no. Man uses rape as a way to punish people.

Gods one and only punishment for sin is death.

Then why God says in the Bible that he will cause it to happen? why does he condone it?

 

[TashaN]

Wow. Did you actually draw a parallel between the worldwide slaughter being carried out in the name of Islam to the bombing of a handful of abortion clinics in the US?? A slight dissimulation there I think! Sorry pal, but the analogy you just used is astounding. To compare a couple of nut jobs (if you will), to the literally thousands of Islamic militia involving/or supported by millions of Moslems worldwide which is carrying out heartbreaking terror such as the hundreds of thousands of people fleeing a virtual genocide by ISIS in the past few weelks alone is a complete fallacy. To discuss Islamic terrorism then Christian terrorism is a complete non-sequitar. How on earth people can even try and peddle such fallacious arguments is beyond me and makes a mockery of such a serious topic.

This is a pure generalization. So those christians who blow up clinics are few crazy people who need help and God forbid that Christians do any bad thing, but Muslims are a bunch of terrorists. Good assessment. Bravo!

 

[outhouse]

This is a pure generalization. So those christians who blow up clinics are few crazy people who need help and God forbid that Christians do any bad thing, but Muslims are a bunch of terrorists. Good assessment. Bravo!

We do have a minority of fundamentalist who are fanatics who do bad things.

This happens so little though, it is not even on the radar.

NOW lets look at muslims, who own the terrorist title of being the most terrorist out of any religion or culture or state.


In comparison, it is not like david and goliath. It slike the empire state building representing muslims, compared to david standing in front of the building.