Islam and the West ~ Finding Common Ground (the Non-DIR thread)

[kai]

I agree that the cultures may have very little in common. What I've read about some of the men is unrecognizable to me.

No normal woman, however, wants to be neglected, abused, or see her daughters suffer ~ I don't care where you are born. This is something we definitely have in common

.

That may well be something you have in common with other women but this thread is about common ground with Islam. Now i know that "true Islam" is not around so lets deal with what we have right now and there is in truth very little common ground if any.

 

[*Anne*]

Damn. I should change the title of the thread since I didn't mean to include "Islam" only. I don't mind if the conversation goes in that direction, but I was thinking more along the lines of how we as people can relate.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Anne,

Another possible point of common ground: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Islam calls for women to be treated honorably. I realize that what we've seen in some cultures isn't reflecting that at all, but that doesn't change the original blueprint. I think women of Islam and women of the West can definitely bond over this particular issue. Better yet, we can fight for women who are being abused.

Women comes after we as humans agree that we are all same but in different forms; in such a case it happens that men and women together make a complete whole.
Energy is energy be it positive or negative but both poles are required to light a bulb.
Treatment of women in the present context is cultural and as we see that the scenario is fast evolving and slowly the tide is tilting towards women who are more and more in responsible positions in society which has been male dominated which personally visualize will be women dominated in future and this is a normal process or law of nature where everything tends to balance out by trying to move towards the opposite.
So, only by recognizing each human to be human from the same source can we all live in unity and peace.
Love & rgds

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Greetings!
And GWW, you're quite mistaken when you describe us as doing nothing! The key is that we operate by CONSENSUS, not through divisive measures, and find that this is most desireable and effective!

Peace,

Bruce

Eh... Bruce, if it's a consensus then there's nothing to decide upon since everyone would already be in agreement with one another with no debate and no opposition party. Have fun waiting for that to just up and happen.

But, enough with the thread derailing.

 

[*Anne*]

So, only by recognizing each human to be human from the same source can we all live in unity and peace.

:rainbow1: I'll take any connection I can get.

 

[BruceDLimber]

f it's a consensus, then there's nothing to decide upon since everyone would already be in agreement with one another, with no debate and no opposition party.

On the contrary, the Baha'i scriptures state explicitly, "From the clash of differing opinions comes forth the spark of truth!"

Peace,

Bruce

 

[maro]

Now i know that "true Islam" is not around so lets deal with what we have right now and there is in truth very little common ground if any.

The true islam is still around ,alhamdulilah...the religion of allah is always around , in the hearts and actions of many muslims

Regarding the state of women in islamic countires...it's not that bad as the media portryas it....most countries grant women plenty of their rights and i am generally satisfied

having some issues to discuss like driving in saudi arabia or some cultural practices is some social classes across the islamic world doesn't make the picture entirly black as you wish to portray it for others !!

 

[kai]

The true islam is still around ,alhamdulilah...the religion of allah is always around , in the hearts and actions of many muslims
I meant a true Islamic state really
Regarding the state of women in islamic countires...it's not that bad as the media portryas it....most countries grant women plenty of their rights and i am generally satisfied

having some issues to discuss like driving in saudi arabia or some cultural practices is some social classes across the islamic world doesn't make the picture entirly black as you wish to portray it for others !!

so where do you think we have common ground with an extant Islamic state ?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Anne,

I'll take any connection I can get.

Every moment one is connected; except some are conscious and others not.
Only gap between the two lot are *Consciousness*.
When one becomes *conscious*, is one connected; that happens when one drops the *I*.
Best Wishes!
Love & rgds

 

[Iman]

As for the common grounds between Islam and the west , I think that the early schools of Islamic thought were the first beneficiaries of Greek philosophy, including Aristotle and Plato, which became a cornerstone in western civilization. The regression to extremism and marginalization of logic and common sense are relatively new phenomena in Islamic culture. Both cultures are deists although the west is more secularized than the Muslim world. They are both secular to some extent in the sense that there is a separation between religious institutions and governance. Many of the values of modernity such as the codes for human rights, equality and freedom are embraced on a popular front although not always alligned with western appilcations. Governments, however, manipulate and redefine these values to prolong their rule and tighten their grip on their population. In terms of views regarding science, Islam has never had a problem with physical sciences, therefore, Muslim view of science is largely compatible with the western view of science. In both cultures, you'd find many people who want to regulate scientific research and applications based on ethics, and/ or religion.
The relationship between Islam and the west is undergoing a great transition. On the one hand there are remnants of historic rivalries and hostilities, on the other, there is greater contact and greater necessity for coexistence and understanding. The west itself includes Islam as one of its major religions, especially in Europe.

As for what we need to work for, I think both camps have their work cut out for them. The Muslims need to reexamine their values, approach and revitalize their civilization and culture and try to reclaim their rights and their voices from their dictators. They also need to work for a unified vision that is genuinely Muslim and true to its roots, but also reflective of the modern age and values we have come to adopt as global comrades at a very deep level. As for the west, it needs to realize that ravaging the Muslim world, and dehumanizing its people is counter productive. It will only wreak havoc at the whole world eventually. There needs to be a more patient, and sensible policy towards the multiple layers of the Islamic world including its political issues, popular demands and grievances, and the very core of the Muslim identity which will not succumb to forced global westernization. It can only become capable of genuine friendship and collaboration with the west when both parties are mutually respected and no one tries to coerce or abuse the other.

 

[*Anne*]

Thank you, Iman.

 

[maro]

so where do you think we have common ground with an extant Islamic state ?

I think the more westernes learn about islam ,the more common ground they will be able to see..and the less fearful they will become of it
The truth is that i expected you to be one of those who are able to see the common ground more than anyone else considering that your knowledge about islam is not critically lacking

As for the political system , islam is generally compatible with democracy...the islamic state is not a theocracy as many people might think...and the rulers are not by any means infallible or representatives of God...you can read Cordoba's thread about al shura if you haven't already did

As for the scientific approach of the west and the technological advances...those are supposed to be encouraged by islam...and i would argue that the current state of muslims is the entire opposite of what their religion encouages them to do...thanks to the extended colonial periods we went through and which was followed immediately by corrupt governments that couldn't care less about the interests of their people ,we have become in this unfortunate state..which must change sooner or later inshallah

As for women's right's , i would say that islam offered them long before any western mind could ever think about it...we learn ,work and vote long before others..we were the first to be granted the right to inherit , to be financially independant and to have divorce whenever we wish
as i said ,the current state of muslim women is generally satisfying to me except in some countries like afghanistan ,for example

The major difference is that many westerners think that the more surface area of the woman's body is exposed ,the more liberated and progressive she is...while islam view women as precious pearls that shouldn't ,by any means ,be degraded to please every wandering eye around
We view the hijab as an honour ,while many westerns view it as opression

Moreover ,

We both are Human Beings....we all aspire for happiness ,good and justice....and as Moez masoud said...we only define them differently
I find his short speech very beautiful and relevant

[youtube]zDJVUnX0rwQ[/youtube]
YouTube - The True Message of Islam

 

[*Anne*]

I think the more westernes learn about islam ,the more common ground they will be able to see..and the less fearful they will become of it

I agree. I just started reading about Islam and plan on teaching my daughters what I've learned. I don't want them to associate Islam with 9/11, which seems too easy to do.

The political struggle between Israel and the Palestinians is not something I think most Americans totally understand either. Obviously some educate themselves on the matter, but I know many in my social circle couldn't tell you much more than what they see on the news. I personally am very isolated from it unless I make the effort to learn.

...The major difference is that many westerners think that the more surface area of the woman's body is exposed ,the more liberated and progressive she is...while islam view women as precious pearls that shouldn't ,by any means ,be degraded to please every wandering eye around
We view the hijab as an honour ,while many westerns view it as opression

For me personally, the hijab doesn't register at all. The burqa, on the other hand, reminds me of a video I saw shortly after 9/11 of a man (Taliban, I believe) hitting a woman in a burqa on the street, herding her and others like animals it seems. Heck, I don't even believe in hitting animals, so you can imagine how that video went over with me.

I realize it's not the burqa itself. I know the abuse I saw is the result of corrupt human beings, not the dress, not Islam. It's very hard, however, to get that image out of my mind. I need something more positive to replace it, I guess.

We both are Human Beings....we all aspire for happiness ,good and justice....and as Moez masoud said...we only define them differently
I find his short speech very beautiful and relevant

Thank you for the video.

 

[.lava]

Current common ground:

Aside from the obvious, which is wanting to live and love in peace, I would say we're all at the mercy of our governments. The actions and reactions of our leaders push and pull us in different directions, and I think a lot of us feel helpless. I know I do, and I can't imagine I'm the only one.

yes, being human, being father, being mother, being a family, being friends, to love, to care, to wish...etc aka humanity is the common ground.

Current relations:

Within my culture, I see two camps: Those who clearly separate violent extremists and wacky fundamentalists from the general Muslim population, and those who think we're at war with Islam itself. I feel the former should be encouraged, otherwise we run the risk of creating a much bigger problem.

Western governments are in war with Islam. those camps do exist everywhere.

What to work for:

#1 Getting troops out of the Middle East.

I don't think much can be accomplished until we do this first.

(Just some initial thoughts.)

face it gently that it is not going to happen by their wills. they would be kicked out and they will fail terribly

.

 

[kai]

I think the more westernes learn about islam ,the more common ground they will be able to see..and the less fearful they will become of it The problem is maybe more muslims should learn about Islam and then we in the west ould actually see the Islam that you espouse. Its a difficult task indeed to attempt to learn what is the "true islam" when Muslims themselves seem have such difficulty in doing so
The truth is that i expected you to be one of those who are able to see the common ground more than anyone else considering that your knowledge about islam is not critically lacking
Its my knowledge of Islam that leads me to beleive its incompatible with the west, i am still open to persuasion though.

As for the political system , islam is generally compatible with democracy...the islamic state is not a theocracy as many people might think...and the rulers are not by any means infallible or representatives of God...you can read Cordoba's thread about al shura if you haven't already did
I have indeed and i come to the conclusion that Shura is seeking council or consultation and is not a democracy where in theory the majority could vote for something un islamic,the shura in Islam is for seeking opinion and not for ruling. This is contrary to the parliamentary system in democracy.

As for the scientific approach of the west and the technological advances...those are supposed to be encouraged by islam...and i would argue that the current state of muslims is the entire opposite of what their religion encouages them to do...thanks to the extended colonial periods we went through and which was followed immediately by corrupt governments that couldn't care less about the interests of their people ,we have become in this unfortunate state..which must change sooner or later inshallah

As for women's right's , i would say that islam offered them long before any western mind could ever think about it...we learn ,work and vote long before others..we were the first to be granted the right to inherit , to be financially independant and to have divorce whenever we wish
as i said ,the current state of muslim women is generally satisfying to me except in some countries like afghanistan ,for example

The major difference is that many westerners think that the more surface area of the woman's body is exposed ,the more liberated and progressive she is...while islam view women as precious pearls that shouldn't ,by any means ,be degraded to please every wandering eye around
We view the hijab as an honour ,while many westerns view it as opression
I think most westerners beleive its up to the woman what she wears, the current tendency to interfere with this is worrying
Moreover ,

We both are Human Beings....we all aspire for happiness ,good and justice....and as Moez masoud said...we only define them differently
I find his short speech very beautiful and relevant

[youtube]zDJVUnX0rwQ[/youtube]
YouTube - The True Message of Islam

Please tell me Maro can a sharia based administration allow itself to be voted out in favour of a non Islamic administration if the majority wishes it. this is the crux of the matter when considering the compatibility with democracies

 

[YmirGF]

I think the more westernes learn about islam ,the more common ground they will be able to see..and the less fearful they will become of it

The problem is maybe more muslims should learn about Islam and then we in the west ould actually see the Islam that you espouse. Its a difficult task indeed to attempt to learn what is the "true islam" when Muslims themselves seem have such difficulty in doing so

What I find puzzling is that we are told we need to learn about Islam and that will heal our fears. Oddly, it was reading purely Muslim sources that began to cause me alarm. Which Islam? Which interpretation? Why is it that there are so many Muslims who misunderstand their beautiful religion?

The truth is that i expected you to be one of those who are able to see the common ground more than anyone else considering that your knowledge about islam is not critically lacking

Its my knowledge of Islam that leads me to beleive its incompatible with the west, i am still open to persuasion though.

Based on my imperfect understanding of Islam, Kai, I am inclined to agree with you here. Personally, I do not see how Islam can be made compatible with "the West" and remain Islam. Theoretically, it is "the West" that would have to go through significant changes into order to align with Islam... and I don't see that happening.

I have indeed and i come to the conclusion that Shura is seeking council or consultation and is not a democracy where in theory the majority could vote for something un islamic,the shura in Islam is for seeking opinion and not for ruling. This is contrary to the parliamentary system in democracy.

Exactly, from what I can tell it is like a committee decision designed to further a given existing narrative. That is not the same as in a democracy where attitudes can be very flexible, hence our expression of politician's "flip-flopping" on issues. I don't see that as being particularly possible in Islam. Furthering the narrative, yes, sudden abrupt shifts, no.

Please tell me Maro can a sharia based administration allow itself to be voted out in favor of a non Islamic administration if the majority wishes it. this is the crux of the matter when considering the compatibility with democracies

That is an interesting question due to the fact that non-Muslim political parties are far from encouraged in Muslim states. I know I have asked before how exactly you get rid of Islamic government once it is in power without a civil war given that there is no real opposition.

 

[Iman]

Please tell me Maro can a sharia based administration allow itself to be voted out in favour of a non Islamic administration if the majority wishes it. this is the crux of the matter when considering the compatibility with democracies

This is indeed one of the points that keep coming up whenever political islam is mentioned. IMO , every nation has its constitution and fundamental values. Muslim nations derive their constitution and fundamental values from their Islamic identity and resources as well as the needs, aspirations, and collective perceptions of justice, liberty, and social order. Such a constitution is not comprehensive nor is it to be taken literally or in a monodimensional manner. Much like the American constitution, it is open to several interpretations and amendments based on the changing needs, and collective development of the society and the nation at large. The elected governments vary in their perceptions, interpretations, plans for socioeconomic and political reform and vision rather than having core differences that make one Islamic and the other non Islamic.

 

[Cosmos]

This is indeed one of the points that keep coming up whenever political islam is mentioned. IMO , every nation has its constitution and fundamental values. Muslim nations derive their constitution and fundamental values from their Islamic identity and resources as well as the needs, aspirations, and collective perceptions of justice, liberty, and social order. Such a constitution is not comprehensive nor is it to be taken literally or in a monodimensional manner. Much like the American constitution, it is open to several interpretations and amendments based on the changing needs, and collective development of the society and the nation at large. The elected governments vary in their perceptions, interpretations, plans for socioeconomic and political reform and vision rather than having core differences that make one Islamic and the other non Islamic.

:clap

This is the most intelligent answer that a Muslim can give to the secular West. In reality the Islamic East does not lack secularism in many Islamic countries, as majority Sunni nations are secularized to many extents and the government is separate from religion, although religious jurisprudence shapes how law is founded and implemented. In fact, not only does this precede Western concepts of separation of Church and State, but, again, the reality is that American government, for example, IS Islamic governance!:foot:
Democratic principles predate democracy in any European society by centuries and is rigorously incorporated in tribal Muslim cultures even outside of nation-state governing. Facts! The word 'mayor' we derive from the Arabic 'amir' (amongst several others) and many other facets of modern Western democratic governance is directly responsible by the primarily Arab Muslims.
Now, the question amongst Muslim countries and its citizens is whether or not the Sharia can or cannot be modified for cultural necessity or social exigencies. Most liberal or moderate Muslims and the Islamic governments accepting secular values have done much headway in establishing a more modern culture of equal rights and opportunity for women and men, ethnic and religious minority groups. So, before anyone dare say that Islam better conform to the West's ethical standards and cultural values, Westerners better look themselves in the mirror and see their Islamist progenitor!:bow: Muslims in their right minds do well to oppose Islamic governments or elements therein who insist on keeping the masses following a strictly Middle Age style brand of Islam with a social code required for the peoples of those times.

 

[kai]

This is indeed one of the points that keep coming up whenever political islam is mentioned. IMO , every nation has its constitution and fundamental values. Muslim nations derive their constitution and fundamental values from their Islamic identity and resources as well as the needs, aspirations, and collective perceptions of justice, liberty, and social order. Such a constitution is not comprehensive nor is it to be taken literally or in a monodimensional manner. Much like the American constitution, it is open to several interpretations and amendments based on the changing needs, and collective development of the society and the nation at large. The elected governments vary in their perceptions, interpretations, plans for socioeconomic and political reform and vision rather than having core differences that make one Islamic and the other non Islamic.

my question still stands, once you have an Islamic state is it that Islamic states duty to resist non Islamic change by the majority? In other words once in, is it possible to get it out by a democratic process?

 

[Iman]

Muslims in their right minds do well to oppose Islamic governments or elements therein who insist on keeping the masses following a strictly Middle Age style brand of Islam with a social code required for the peoples of those times.

Could not agree more.