Islam and Women : The Head Scarf

[beenie]

Why would those, who see, admire, and promote naked images of human beings be offended by liberal display of them? I'm sorry to announce it to you, but that kind of art or posters have NO place in an Islamic society, from any point of view. So just because some people 'accept and 'Enjoy' THAT kind of art does Not in any way make it acceptable for other people who, themselves and their cultural, and religious values do not endorse such vile expressions of wasted art.

where did i say i ENJOYED it? i said i wasn't offended. get your facts straight.

Islam does not support nakedness as a glorifying gesture, non-islamic countries liberally exhibit their admiration for such display and if one has become used to that kind of exposure, i don't really know how one protects haya (modesty) of Eeman (faith)inside, if you can see ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, whats the whole point of hijab, dressing up, and demanding men to lower their gaze?

did you read the quotes i posted? i posted from the SOURCE, not made up stuff...read again.

It is just cheap to even to suggest that ' sexual feelings didn't even enter the atmosphere when i saw them', You really need to revise your religious values to distinguish between liberal display of nakedness as to being aroused sexually. Really doubt what kind of self made Islam one is following after that comment.

excuse me, who are you again? i said i'm not offended or aroused by seeing that art. so that makes me a bad Muslim? just because i'm not grossed out or sexually aroused doesn't mean i have to re-evaluate anything.

...and we wonder why the world thinks we're nuts.

Athiests and non believers should ATLEAST respect the values of other people in an argument if they consider it too important offering their troll trash , otherwise they should just refrain from attempting to pose a despicable show of ignorance of other's values. If you see naked men everyday fine, don't speak for those who oppose to it and kindly refrain from implying your lack of modesty to those who treasure it.

way to be on a high-horse. again, thanks for proving others right about SOME Muslims.

Salaam.

 

[Meow Mix]

I can't imagine living in such a way that tasteful nakedness in art is so offensive, I don't think I could ever be a good Muslim as Starsoul sees it.

I personally disagree with the concept of physical modesty -- I'm not trying to attack or mock Islam, just giving my own opinion of it. It's sort of like when you're a small child and if anything is even slightly forbidden there's this ineffable taboo about it, such that if you so much as say a naughty word in hushed voices you glance over your shoulders with wide eyes to see if anyone heard...

...then as you grow up you start to figure out that bad language (while inappropriate in some social places) really isn't a big deal at all.

Nakedness really isn't that big of a deal and it's often not even sexual at all -- it only becomes "sexual" when someone is vehemently against it. I can't really find the words to express what I'm trying to say, but cultural taboos that turn natural things into hushed whispers to be avoided are strange to me.

 

[Sunstone]

Nakedness really isn't that big of a deal and it's often not even sexual at all -- it only becomes "sexual" when someone is vehemently against it. I can't really find the words to express what I'm trying to say, but cultural taboos that turn natural things into hushed whispers to be avoided are strange to me.

Mere nakedness is sexual if and only if you are the sort of person who for one reason or another sees it as sexual. There are many peoples around the world that live day to day in a state of nakedness and near nakedness without seeing nakedness as sexual. Again, for most of our 260,000 years on this earth as a species, we went naked. Scientists believe it likely that only in the last 70,000 years of that 260,000 years have we worn clothes. It is implausible that for all those tens of thousands of years before we wore clothes we went around turned on by mere nakedness. There is nothing inherent in human nature that says mere nakedness is sexual.

 

[Meow Mix]

Mere nakedness is sexual if and only if you are the sort of person who for one reason or another sees it as sexual. There are many peoples around the world that live day to day in a state of nakedness and near nakedness without seeing nakedness as sexual. Again, for most of our 260,000 years on this earth as a species, we went naked. Scientists believe it likely that only in the last 70,000 years of that 260,000 years have we worn clothes. It is implausible that for all those tens of thousands of years before we wore clothes we went around turned on by mere nakedness. There is nothing inherent in human nature that says mere nakedness is sexual.

I agree. People don't flinch away in locker rooms or tanneries if they see naked people, nor do they stare at them enraptured with sexual lust or anything. It's really not a big deal. I don't understand why cultures make it into a big deal.

Like I said I can't find the words to really describe it but comparing it to childhood is the best way: when something was taboo there was this great fear of it for no reason. I don't like that; remembering that feeling seems negative to me. There's something positive about being more open and accepting without fear of something that needn't be feared.

 

[Starsoul]

where did i say i ENJOYED it? i said i wasn't offended. get your facts straight.



did you read the quotes i posted? i posted from the SOURCE, not made up stuff...read again.



excuse me, who are you again? i said i'm not offended or aroused by seeing that art. so that makes me a bad Muslim? just because i'm not grossed out or sexually aroused doesn't mean i have to re-evaluate anything.

...and we wonder why the world thinks we're nuts.



way to be on a high-horse. again, thanks for proving others right about SOME Muslims.

Salaam.

Salamm to you too sister. Dont be offended, But I'm not the least bothered if some actual facts about my faith and religion FEEL uncomfortable to others , Islam is simply not for APPROVAL by the non- believers, anyone must shake that impression if he has it. Islam did not come to be 'evaluated' by human intellect, As for those who feel that being super -laxed about something will make you acceptable / welcome to the non-muslim society that you live in, is a sweet lie they are toying with.

Its one thing being polite and its completely another revolting against the whole idea of modesty under the slight cover of religion. Just exactly as one cannot be a good muslim just by being born into a Muslim family, one cannot treat Islam as a buffet dinner where you wear exactly what you like, and eat exactly what 'Appeals' to you, while comfortably ignoring the rest.

Having a belief means complete belief, even if that means that im probably the worst muslim you know, BUT my belief in Islam stands un-shaken, and I must work towards evaluating myself, rather than impose my personal likeness on something that is completely forbidden in islam, this isn't the thread about images, otherwise i'd quote relative stuff.

And do whatever they would, Do You think that people of the world at the time of Prophet Muhammad SAWW did not call him and his companions things that people call muslims today? Do you think we are any better muslims that nobody's going to pick dirt on us, whether it was justified or not? People on this forum only aim at personal attacks and argue just for the sake of arguing, So if a coupla people think Im nuts, be it, couldnt be happier But I'm not one of those who deliberately LOOK for approval by the non muslims , in time they will know whos the bigger nut.(maybe im a bigger one, but we'll let God be the judge)

p.s. i'm only referring to your having APPROVED of naked images, INSPITE of the fact you post Quotes from Quran that its not to be, n yet you STILL find yourself in line with the non-muslim belief, confirming it, rather than standing your own good ground. please do remember, this is just a forum, and nobody is getting personal with anyone, I cant say about others, but my focus is always the argument, not the people. peace.

 

[beenie]

Salamm to you too sister. Dont be offended, But I'm not the least bothered if some actual facts about my faith and religion FEEL uncomfortable to others , Islam is simply not for APPROVAL by the non- believers, anyone must shake that impression if he has it. Islam did not come to be 'evaluated' by human intellect, As for those who feel that being super -laxed about something will make you acceptable / welcome to the non-muslim society that you live in, is a sweet lie they are toying with.

Its one thing being polite and its completely another revolting against the whole idea of modesty under the slight cover of religion. Just exactly as one cannot be a good muslim just by being born into a Muslim family, one cannot treat Islam as a buffet dinner where you wear exactly what you like, and eat exactly what 'Appeals' to you, while comfortably ignoring the rest.

Having a belief means complete belief, even if that means that im probably the worst muslim you know, BUT my belief in Islam stands un-shaken, and I must work towards evaluating myself, rather than impose my personal likeness on something that is completely forbidden in islam, this isn't the thread about images, otherwise i'd quote relative stuff.

And do whatever they would, Do You think that people of the world at the time of Prophet Muhammad SAWW did not call him and his companions things that people call muslims today? Do you think we are any better muslims that nobody's going to pick dirt on us, whether it was justified or not? People on this forum only aim at personal attacks and argue just for the sake of arguing, So if a coupla people think Im nuts, be it, couldnt be happier But I'm not one of those who deliberately LOOK for approval by the non muslims , in time they will know whos the bigger nut.(maybe im a bigger one, but we'll let God be the judge)

p.s. i'm only referring to your having APPROVED of naked images, INSPITE of the fact you post Quotes from Quran that its not to be, n yet you STILL find yourself in line with the non-muslim belief, confirming it, rather than standing your own good ground. please do remember, this is just a forum, and nobody is getting personal with anyone, I cant say about others, but my focus is always the argument, not the people. peace.

you are reading way to far into this. i said i'm not offended because i'm NOT. i can't help the way i feel. i don't seek out naked images to look at; they were in the thread and i just looked at Auto's point and moved on. i was UNAFFECTED by them. i can't help what is placed in front of me, but i can help my reaction to it. making a big deal out of it only draws attention to the matter.

by the way, i'm not taking a non-Muslim side in the least. just because i'm not offended by something doesn't mean i'm going to decorate my home with it. i just ignore and move on.

for what it's worth, if you read my past posts, i have NO problem standing my own ground.

 

[Madhuri]

Nakedness really isn't that big of a deal and it's often not even sexual at all -- it only becomes "sexual" when someone is vehemently against it. I can't really find the words to express what I'm trying to say, but cultural taboos that turn natural things into hushed whispers to be avoided are strange to me.

I know, why do some people have to make everything so sexually perverted? Sex doesn't even occur to me when looking at those images. And now, because of all this fuss, I have to forcefully put myself in that frame of mind. It is the same with covering up so much. As soon as you cover something up, the mind associates it with perversion. I've noticed that some religious people are completely obsessed with sex. All that thinking about things you shouldn't do...makes you think about those things

 

[Starsoul]

I know, why do some people have to make everything so sexually perverted? Sex doesn't even occur to me when looking at those images. And now, because of all this fuss, I have to forcefully put myself in that frame of mind. It is the same with covering up so much. As soon as you cover something up, the mind associates it with perversion. I've noticed that some religious people are completely obsessed with sex. All that thinking about things you shouldn't do...makes you think about those things

you have mentioned sex so many times in your sentences, it hardly leaves anyone a doubt as to who was referring to the sex appeal of the images.

My post only put across the portrayal of the images which is prohibited in Islam, and no where in my post there is any hint towards the sexual implication of it, i wonder why all of you just needed a chance on to jump to the topic, there was Nothing in my post regarding that word. If you do not know regarding that rule of religion, with due respect, there's really no need to comment over it.

 

[Madhuri]

you have mentioned sex so many times in your sentences, it hardly leaves anyone a doubt as to who was referring to the sex appeal of the images.

My post only put across the portrayal of the images which is prohibited in Islam, and no where in my post there is any hint towards the sexual implication of it, i wonder why all of you just needed a chance on to jump to the topic, there was Nothing in my post regarding that word. If you do not know regarding that rule of religion, with due respect, there's really no need to comment over it.

True, but in order to regulate our behaviour appropriately we need to understand the reasons for it. If nudity is not offensive due to it's sexual nature then why is it offensive?

Further more, Not4me did in fact mention sexuality and between you and ssainhu there was talk of sexuality. Even if I misconstrued, it was because sexuality was brought up and also because I have no idea why else it would be discouraged in your religion. Sexuality is generally the basis of modest dressing in religion, after all.

 

[Starsoul]

True, but in order to regulate our behaviour appropriately we need to understand the reasons for it. If nudity is not offensive due to it's sexual nature then why is it offensive?

Further more, Not4me did in fact mention sexuality and between you and ssainhu there was talk of sexuality. Even if I misconstrued, it was because sexuality was brought up and also because I have no idea why else it would be discouraged in your religion. Sexuality is generally the basis of modest dressing in religion, after all.

I think that somebody put a very offensive post after mine which carried that inference but got deleted by moderation right after. Anyhow, i'm sorry people got the wrong impression about it, offcorse nudity is offensive owing to its sexual nature, but that does not mean that all nudity caries a sexual message which some Rfers insisted upon( including the grotesque grizly image).

But in any case nudity, in sculptures, in images, in paintings, in anywhere, is prohibited in Islam regardless of the message it carries. The nude aspect of art is prohibited, infact its not even allowed to make human sculptures in islam, and if any one comes across such material un-intentionally, it is offensive because muslims are to really guard their gaze from any display of nudity and it really feels awfully (nauseating) if such an image crosses one's eye without any warning. Hope you understand.

 

[gnostic]

The whole issue about nudeness of men have been blow all out of proportions.

Starsoul stated that men in past civilisations always had beards.

And the fact that ALL the civilizations had their men with beards. Having no beard was a huge embarrassment before one and a half or more of a century. It was very much a sign of a strong, mature and an eligible man.

Then the british army started trimming it, and when they used to come back home, they made the most eligible bachelors for their no-beard-pretty looks, and women would swoon more over them, hence the trend caught up with all slowly.

But i support beard, it is the thing!

Autodidact replied with some images of ancient artworks to show that starsoul's comments about beards is nonsense...which I happened to agree it is...a load of nonsenses.

Yes, no man ever shaved before the 18th century.

not4me was offended by the artwork, ssainhu wasn't.

ssainhu was not affected one way or another by the nudity of the Greek statues. She didn't feel offended. And she didn't feel aroused. She just understand autodidact's point, and nothing more than that, then as she said she "moved on".

You are misreading and misunderstand what she have written, and explain to you, again and again, only to have you misunderstand her next post, again and again.

My question to you, starsoul, is why should she or anyone feel offended by the artwork? Do you have to feel one or the other?

Only someone who feel one or the other, either have too much sex on their mind or don't understand with art you don't necessarily need to feel aroused or guilty to look.

I am far used to see artworks that have nudity and not feel aroused, guilty or offended. What I do feel is the admiration on the artist's realistic and naturalistic portray of the model.

 

[MissAlice]

I think that somebody put a very offensive post after mine which carried that inference but got deleted by moderation right after. Anyhow, i'm sorry people got the wrong impression about it, offcorse nudity is offensive owing to its sexual nature, but that does not mean that all nudity caries a sexual message which some Rfers insisted upon( including the grotesque grizly image).

Oh no the grizzly pic had nothing to do with the s word.

So don't even go there....

 

[Starsoul]

The whole issue about nudeness of men have been blow all out of proportions.

Starsoul stated that men in past civilisations always had beards.



Autodidact replied with some images of ancient artworks to show that starsoul's comments about beards is nonsense...which I happened to agree it is...a load of nonsenses.



not4me was offended by the artwork, ssainhu wasn't.

ssainhu was not affected one way or another by the nudity of the Greek statues. She didn't feel offended. And she didn't feel aroused. She just understand autodidact's point, and nothing more than that, then as she said she "moved on".

You are misreading and misunderstand what she have written, and explain to you, again and again, only to have you misunderstand her next post, again and again.

My question to you, starsoul, is why should she or anyone feel offended by the artwork? Do you have to feel one or the other?

Only someone who feel one or the other, either have too much sex on their mind or don't understand with art you don't necessarily need to feel aroused or guilty to look.

I am far used to see artworks that have nudity and not feel aroused, guilty or offended. What I do feel is the admiration on the artist's realistic and naturalistic portray of the model.

Only one post by me to warn the post maker, and i have a cascade of irrelevent comments over it. Nobodys asked how you feel about the artwork, no need to repeat irrelevant stuff out of context. My comment about the beard was in the context of pre historic men, and then in reference to the influence of shaven men on british army , american army and then the armies of the rest of the world. Since i posted the comment in a muslim majority thread, the contexts are well understandable without requiring an elaborate explanation, Didnt know its more of interest to those who only visit such threads to make mountains out of molehills.

I'd suggest you NOT blow the comment out of context and if you do not have any info on that matter, i doubt anyone's interested in knowing about the rest. Can you please move on ? arent some people just stretching it too far? That post is well far behind now, clarified, don't see any point why anyone would want to keep on bringing it up again and again, unless being prompted to by those who cant even discuss their point of view respectfully.

If you do not have anything to say about the thread, will you clarify why you are commenting here and who for? I dont cross talk to 20 people indirectly to get my point across, Id replied ONCE to that post myself, and thats enough, Its kind of childish to drag it any further, and contribute to significant waste of space. peace.

 

[Looncall]

But in any case nudity, in sculptures, in images, in paintings, in anywhere, is prohibited in Islam regardless of the message it carries. The nude aspect of art is prohibited, infact its not even allowed to make human sculptures in islam, and if any one comes across such material un-intentionally, it is offensive because muslims are to really guard their gaze from any display of nudity and it really feels awfully (nauseating) if such an image crosses one's eye without any warning. Hope you understand.

That's your problem. Muslim taboos do not apply to non-muslims. You are wrong to be offended.

On the other hand, why does your religion oblige you to despise humanity?

 

[Madhuri]

The nude aspect of art is prohibited, infact its not even allowed to make human sculptures in islam, and if any one comes across such material un-intentionally, it is offensive because muslims are to really guard their gaze from any display of nudity and it really feels awfully (nauseating) if such an image crosses one's eye without any warning. Hope you understand.

But if you have such a repulsion toward nudity, how do husband and wife face each other in the bedroom? Do you just keep the lights off?

 

[Sahar]

I don't understand why art can be offensive?

There's nothing sexual or arousing about Greek statues. The human form is beautiful and should be appreciated. I guess I don't understand why there's an aversion.

In any case I don't think it's disrespectful to post art; there is a difference between art and pornography.

Isn't pornography a form of art too? Your argument can be used also to justify posting a piece of "erotic art"...we can find excuses for anything...
In my opinion, modesty deserve to be much more appreciated.

 

[Meow Mix]

Isn't pornography a form of art too? Your argument can be used also to justify posting a piece of "erotic art"...we can find excuses for anything...
In my opinion, modesty deserve to be much more appreciated.

Pornography or "erotic art" (if such a thing exists) is inappropriate for a message board though. Utterly non-sexual nudity, however, is extremely harmless. I guess it's just a cultural difference that I have a hard time understanding. I will of course respect it, and if I ever post an image with non-sexual nudity I will put it in a spoiler tab so as not to offend. I'm just saying that I don't understand the offense.

But I guess if we were all the same the world would be boring, huh?

 

[gnostic]

Only one post by me to warn the post maker, and i have a cascade of irrelevent comments over it. Nobodys asked how you feel about the artwork, no need to repeat irrelevant stuff out of context. My comment about the beard was in the context of pre historic men, and then in reference to the influence of shaven men on british army , american army and then the armies of the rest of the world. Since i posted the comment in a muslim majority thread, the contexts are well understandable without requiring an elaborate explanation, Didnt know its more of interest to those who only visit such threads to make mountains out of molehills.

I'd suggest you NOT blow the comment out of context and if you do not have any info on that matter, i doubt anyone's interested in knowing about the rest. Can you please move on ? arent some people just stretching it too far? That post is well far behind now, clarified, don't see any point why anyone would want to keep on bringing it up again and again, unless being prompted to by those who cant even discuss their point of view respectfully.

If you do not have anything to say about the thread, will you clarify why you are commenting here and who for? I dont cross talk to 20 people indirectly to get my point across, Id replied ONCE to that post myself, and thats enough, Its kind of childish to drag it any further, and contribute to significant waste of space. peace.

If you now understand that you have misunderstood ssainhu's comments and that you now recognize that you've taken ssainhu's comments out of context, then I'll be more than happy to move on.

 

[beenie]

The whole issue about nudeness of men have been blow all out of proportions.

Starsoul stated that men in past civilisations always had beards.



Autodidact replied with some images of ancient artworks to show that starsoul's comments about beards is nonsense...which I happened to agree it is...a load of nonsenses.



not4me was offended by the artwork, ssainhu wasn't.

ssainhu was not affected one way or another by the nudity of the Greek statues. She didn't feel offended. And she didn't feel aroused. She just understand autodidact's point, and nothing more than that, then as she said she "moved on".

You are misreading and misunderstand what she have written, and explain to you, again and again, only to have you misunderstand her next post, again and again.

My question to you, starsoul, is why should she or anyone feel offended by the artwork? Do you have to feel one or the other?

Only someone who feel one or the other, either have too much sex on their mind or don't understand with art you don't necessarily need to feel aroused or guilty to look.

I am far used to see artworks that have nudity and not feel aroused, guilty or offended. What I do feel is the admiration on the artist's realistic and naturalistic portray of the model.

If you now understand that you have misunderstood ssainhu's comments and that you now recognize that you've taken ssainhu's comments out of context, then I'll be more than happy to move on.

trying to give you Frubals, but i can't.

 

[gnostic]

Isn't pornography a form of art too? Your argument can be used also to justify posting a piece of "erotic art"...we can find excuses for anything...
In my opinion, modesty deserve to be much more appreciated.

The 3 images of Greek nude sculptures were created with the intention of the pornography. They were never intended for it to be "erotic art" as well.

You need to understand the ancient Greek culture, especially its arts were never intended to be "erotic". The Greeks used to participate in sports without clothing, especially in the tracks and fields. It was how they took part in the Olympic Games and other Hellenic games (Pythian, Nemean and Isthmian games). Even if they were to wear loincloth, vigorous movements from athletes, whether it be running, jumping or throwing, or wrestling or boxing, would cause their loincloth to fall off. Nudity were out of necessity than out of erotic or pornography. Of course, some competitions didn't require nudity, like chariot or horse racing, or for music contests (in the Pythian games).

So in the case of the discus thrower statue, a sculptor would most likely depict an athlete without clothes. It was a way of commemorating the games and the athletes. Pindar commemorated the games and athletes, not through sculptures or paintings, but through his writings, victory odes, a collection of 5th century lyric poems. Pindar compared these winners with heroes of their mythical past.

I don't know what were the purposes of the other 2 sculptures, but they were certainly not created out of male pornography. Nudity was not an issue of the Greeks.