Islam and Women : The Head Scarf

[newhope101]

Just to briefly answer, No. Just like there's no punishment for lying,(unless a witness to a crime lies, and is caught for that) backbiting, staring, and showing extreme anger and etc. Although all these acts have been described to be extremely binding upon Muslims to avoid, for their dire consequences are to be dealt with in the afterlife, i do not yet know of a ruling placed on them.

(I could be wrong, But since most of these acts, get accounted for in one's life in normal observation, I have seen many people taste the bitterness of their own medicine, and have Always seen that what goes around ,comes around, so things not named as punishable by the Shariah, usually are handled by the Nature's rule of 'paying for your own dues through your own sins'.)

Never heard of a punishment for not covering your head, and never saw anyone EVEN suggesting for such a thing. The places it is said to be practiced at do so probably because of the view of some of the people who feel that its discrimination among women if some get to exhibit their beauty and the rest do not. I'm not sure how far applicable that discrimination is, but we'll find out.

I think Islam is a beautiful faith. I think there is merit in some of your tennants.

The male domination concerns me. I'm glad the veil has been banned in some countries. I know muslim women that both love and hate wearing the veil. Besides in most countries muslim males have plenty of western women to stare at. So regardless of muslim women wearing a veil. muslim men still have temptation they have to excercise control over. A male can't even look through a magazine these days without seeing barely clad women.

I do not know if it is true, but I was told the great reward in heaven for males is a thousand virgins. If that is true I think that is sick. Likewise if a male is allowed multiple wives..great for the guy, I guess the gals get to share the housework, but how berating for the wives. It is as if Islam has catered for the male needs but ignore that of the womens.

I can see the benifits of heads of families and no premarital sex. I also see that Muslims are different in different countries with some not so strict. In some countries women can work, can talk respectfully to the opposite sex etc. Other countries are extremely strict with full cover and NO talking to males. I understand that is about the interpretation of 'covering your beauty'.

Muslim men and women that work must liaise with the opposite sex and that involves working with westerners that do not cover up, flirt, tell dirty jokes have pin up women on the walls etc. It is unavoidable and men still have to contain themselves.

When Muslim men swim I think they wear normal swimming apparel. If they are good looking they can be a temptation also. I think males in your religion have scewed the readings and do not reflect the old testament. Rather it has been manipulated to suit a male dominated society where women have little or no power at all.

As I say, I think Islam is a beautiful faith, but I see the making of the veil illegal as a way of reverting some of of the excessive demands placed on women. I wonder how this will go. Will Muslim males make their women stay indoors forever? That would mean the male will have to do the shopping and all the tasks outside the home or allow his wife and daughters to go out unveiled. I expect a normal style scarf would still be allowed, but I am gald they do not have to wear that huge veil anymore in countries like France. It's a $200 fine for the women and I think something like a $42,000 fine for the male responsible. Great idea.

 

[Meow Mix]

I disagree with banning hijab.

Many women want to wear it and that should be their right to do so. I'm actually considering trying it sometime in the winter (one of our RF Muslims was kind enough to show me a how-to video on doing it stylishly ) just to see how people react to it. Maybe I'll love it?

I see where you're coming from though. I very much disagree with the social pressure on women to wear it. I disagree with any men or women who force a woman to wear it, or make them feel so uncomfortable when they don't wear it that they might as well be forced. I'm not sure to what extent that happens though, or where.

I'd guess it's probably not a big problem in France. Therefore I disagree with their decision to ban it. Banning a full-body burqa I can understand in some areas for security reasons (there have been at least a few attempted robbers hiding under burqas) but hijab, as far as I understand, just covers the hair.

 

[beenie]

I disagree with banning hijab.

Many women want to wear it and that should be their right to do so. I'm actually considering trying it sometime in the winter (one of our RF Muslims was kind enough to show me a how-to video on doing it stylishly ) just to see how people react to it. Maybe I'll love it?

I see where you're coming from though. I very much disagree with the social pressure on women to wear it. I disagree with any men or women who force a woman to wear it, or make them feel so uncomfortable when they don't wear it that they might as well be forced. I'm not sure to what extent that happens though, or where.

I'd guess it's probably not a big problem in France. Therefore I disagree with their decision to ban it. Banning a full-body burqa I can understand in some areas for security reasons (there have been at least a few attempted robbers hiding under burqas) but hijab, as far as I understand, just covers the hair.

very nicely put. i think banning the hijab is oppressing women just as much as forcing them to wear it...either way, someone (most likely men) are dictating what women should or shouldn't wear.

 

[newhope101]

I agree, that if a women truly want to wear it, it is unfair to ban it. I guess that putting on the harsh penalties for the wearing of the hijab in France was the only way they could free those women that do not wish to wear it. I think it was just the hijab. Veils should be OK.

As with many laws the rights of some are sacrificed for the rights of others.

 

[Sunstone]

very nicely put. i think banning the hijab is oppressing women just as much as forcing them to wear it...either way, someone (most likely men) are dictating what women should or shouldn't wear.

I agree. I would also like to add that one should never underestimate how often and how forcefully men have down through history dictated to women what women can and cannot wear. I very strongly suspect men do that in order to limit and restrain women's sexual choices.

 

[Starsoul]

I don't have a problem with the idea of wearing something to cover the hair, in fact sometimes it is very beautiful (ie the head veils on saris).

What I feel critical about is all this focus on men, their lust, their needs etc. When does a women really get some consideration? I'll be honest, I find a man with hair way more attractive than a bold man. I find the sight of a handsome face to be very sexually appealing and insights lust. Why shouldn't men wear veils? Why shouldn't they cover their face? Or is it ok for a woman to be lustful and impure? That seems a bit sexist.

Well, the Beard is a man's Hijab Although that looks really nice on some too. But usually it lessens the prettiness of a ' pretty looking male'. And adds a manly appeal to a male, while restoring the womanly appeal of a woman in comparison.

And the fact that ALL the civilizations had their men with beards. Having no beard was a huge embarrassment before one and a half or more of a century. It was very much a sign of a strong, mature and an eligible man.

Then the british army started trimming it, and when they used to come back home, they made the most eligible bachelors for their no-beard-pretty looks, and women would swoon more over them, hence the trend caught up with all slowly.

But i support beard, it is the thing!

 

[Starsoul]

I think Islam is a beautiful faith. I think there is merit in some of your tennants.

The male domination concerns me. I'm glad the veil has been banned in some countries. I know muslim women that both love and hate wearing the veil. Besides in most countries muslim males have plenty of western women to stare at. So regardless of muslim women wearing a veil. muslim men still have temptation they have to excercise control over. A male can't even look through a magazine these days without seeing barely clad women.

Well, the Muslim women are not happy about the veil ban, as most of them in the west do it out of their own choice.

And yes, some men do have the chauvinistic attitude towards their wives, but that is not something to link Islam with. Its all about your up-bringing and the openness of your mind, The Prophet (pbuh) set many examples and He was really very kind to all of his wives. And one of his wives was a business woman. That pretty much describes how he honored all of them, Muslims can very well take His examples if they wish to.

 

[Looncall]

Well, the Muslim women are not happy about the veil ban, as most of them in the west do it out of their own choice.

And yes, some men do have the chauvinistic attitude towards their wives, but that is not something to link Islam with. Its all about your up-bringing and the openness of your mind, The Prophet (pbuh) set many examples and He was really very kind to all of his wives. And one of his wives was a business woman. That pretty much describes how he honored all of them, Muslims can very well take His examples if they wish to.

Why is that chauvinistic attitude particularly prevalent in muslim societies? For example, Suadi Arabia and Afghanistan? If islam is so great for women, why does enthusiasm for islam correlate with oppression of women?

 

[Madhuri]

Well, the Beard is a man's Hijab Although that looks really nice on some too. But usually it lessens the prettiness of a ' pretty looking male'. And adds a manly appeal to a male, while restoring the womanly appeal of a woman in comparison.

And the fact that ALL the civilizations had their men with beards. Having no beard was a huge embarrassment before one and a half or more of a century. It was very much a sign of a strong, mature and an eligible man.

Then the british army started trimming it, and when they used to come back home, they made the most eligible bachelors for their no-beard-pretty looks, and women would swoon more over them, hence the trend caught up with all slowly.

But i support beard, it is the thing!

Hmm, beard/no beard is really a cultural thing. After all, beauty is learned (subjective).

I actually think that clean-shaven men are less attractive, especially as they get older. It's too feminine. But really long bushy beard are ugly too, so that would work.

 

[Starsoul]

Why is that chauvinistic attitude particularly prevalent in muslim societies? For example, Suadi Arabia and Afghanistan? If islam is so great for women, why does enthusiasm for islam correlate with oppression of women?

The chauvinistic attitutde exists in one form or the other everywhere. I'd say its probably Natural for a man to feel chauvinistic, its His decency and well mannerism when he suppresses that infront of females, because Men and women have different attitudes while dealing with the opposite sexes, what works for them among men is not going to work for them among women. Men have to soften down a bit towards women for the mutual relationship to grow in an amiable way.

People really have an arial view of things when they haven't even met people from Afganistan and Saudia. Just because they see women walking around all covered, they assume' ahh what opression and suppression!'. That is so not the case in reality. The women of Afganistan are probably the Strongest women out of the whole Muslim Ummah, physically, emotionally and mentally. And the most striking fact is that they are the SWEETEST and humblest of them all. And women CANNOT, usually do Not have much capability of showing sweetness if the male members of the family are not loving , caring and supportive. What seems oppressive to few, is cherished by those who practice it.

That said, there may be several cases of oppression in Afganistan owing to the fact that from the Last 40 yrs or so, Afganistan is in constant wars. The whole infrastructure of the country is destroyed and people really are living in the stone ages. There are hardly any good schools or colleges and hardly any sufficient health services. The new generation hasn't had any opportunity to educate themselves better, and If you have read about super powers' role in those wars, you'd have a good idea about the fact , that Us spent billions of dollars for war in Afganistan in the seventies and now too, but when the time of re-structuring appeared post war, they packed up their bags and left it as it is, totally destroyed. And it is struggling like a crippled baby ever since.

And saudi men are sooo good to their mothers, daughters and wives, you probably have no idea. They literally treat them like princesses And they are so open and frank in discussion about things with the male members of their family, no-one can even think for a moment for assigning suppression to any of them. There are universities, and really good education system existing in Saudia and education from primary levels upto high school is open and free for all. And as for the few of the rights of women in Saudia, they are constantly being worked upon.

But one must understand that their lifestyle is so privileged with maids and servants and since their men carry all the responsibility of work outside the house, it really is a huge comfort for them to stay indoors dealing the matters of the house. The climate of Saudia is so dry and hot most of the year that its a nightmare being out and about in the sun all day.

Everyone knows how demanding child minding and house work is, and women of the Muslim world take pride in raising their children themselves instead of dropping them to day cares , no person can replace the love and care of a mother. But offcorse, there are exceptions where daycares are a requirement for muslim women who are from the working class and have to utilize that option. The privileged families not only support their own huge families, they very much support the family members of all their servants, and working as a helper is supposed to be quite a good employment in Saudia, they live fairly comfortably.


But when we witness the plight of women in Europe and Us, all women have to work to financially support themselves and their families, and more so in cases where they are divorced and have full custody of their children. It is noted that women are sharing more than their fair share of responsibilities in a 'couple' and men tend to just laze around carrying only their own finances barely. And some just sitting on the couch enjoying the free show, where they just function as a non-functional 'partner', nothing else, how good is that? Is that not exploitation of women's rights?

 

[Autodidact]

Well, the Beard is a man's Hijab Although that looks really nice on some too. But usually it lessens the prettiness of a ' pretty looking male'. And adds a manly appeal to a male, while restoring the womanly appeal of a woman in comparison.

And the fact that ALL the civilizations had their men with beards. Having no beard was a huge embarrassment before one and a half or more of a century. It was very much a sign of a strong, mature and an eligible man.

Then the british army started trimming it, and when they used to come back home, they made the most eligible bachelors for their no-beard-pretty looks, and women would swoon more over them, hence the trend caught up with all slowly.

But i support beard, it is the thing!

Yes, no man ever shaved before the 18th century.

 

[Autodidact]

People really have an arial view of things when they haven't even met people from Afganistan and Saudia. Just because they see women walking around all covered, they assume' ahh what opression and suppression!'. That is so not the case in reality.

All women, regardless of age, are required to have a male guardian. Women cannot vote or be elected to high political positions.[1] It is the only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. The World Economic Forum 2009 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 130th out of 134 countries for gender parity. It was the only country to score a zero in the category of political empowerment. [wiki]

It is no secret that the women of Saudi Arabia live under a great deal of oppression. It’s not much of a stretch to claim that they are treated like property under, what has so far been, a rather strict fundamentalist Islamic law. They are subservient to men in every way. Women must be fully covered with black veils and are segregated from the males in society, having separate entrances and isolated areas within temples or places of business. They are not allowed to drive cars, may not travel in or out of Saudi Arabian cities without a designated male guardian, are not allowed to vote, must get the approval of their husband for nearly everything, are almost never allowed to be employed, and are denied the ability to represent themselves in a courts system that already regards women as inferior. here

Unlike other Persian Gulf women, Saudi Arabian women still face an uphill struggle to gain political and social rights and need the consent of male guardians for almost everything, including obtaining a passport and traveling.

They are also forced to cover up from head to toe when in public, and due to strict segregation rules their work opportunities are severely restricted. here.

So let's do this, Starsoul. Go buy yourself basically a body tent, and do not under any circumstances leave your house without it. Give up your driver's license and your right to vote. Do not leave your house without a woman to accompany you. Do not travel anywhere without permission from your female guardian. Do not enter any place of business where women are found, either as customers or employees. Post a year from now and let us know whether you feel oppressed, O.K.?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

All women, regardless of age, are required to have a male guardian. Women cannot vote or be elected to high political positions.[1] It is the only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. The World Economic Forum 2009 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 130th out of 134 countries for gender parity. It was the only country to score a zero in the category of political empowerment. [wiki]

It is no secret that the women of Saudi Arabia live under a great deal of oppression. It’s not much of a stretch to claim that they are treated like property under, what has so far been, a rather strict fundamentalist Islamic law. They are subservient to men in every way. Women must be fully covered with black veils and are segregated from the males in society, having separate entrances and isolated areas within temples or places of business. They are not allowed to drive cars, may not travel in or out of Saudi Arabian cities without a designated male guardian, are not allowed to vote, must get the approval of their husband for nearly everything, are almost never allowed to be employed, and are denied the ability to represent themselves in a courts system that already regards women as inferior. here

Unlike other Persian Gulf women, Saudi Arabian women still face an uphill struggle to gain political and social rights and need the consent of male guardians for almost everything, including obtaining a passport and traveling.

They are also forced to cover up from head to toe when in public, and due to strict segregation rules their work opportunities are severely restricted. here.

So let's do this, Starsoul. Go buy yourself basically a body tent, and do not under any circumstances leave your house without it. Give up your driver's license and your right to vote. Do not leave your house without a woman to accompany you. Do not travel anywhere without permission from your female guardian. Do not enter any place of business where women are found, either as customers or employees. Post a year from now and let us know whether you feel oppressed, O.K.?

The fact remains that as women, feminism is incredily relevent and necessary in many different parts of the world. I, for one, would not feel as if I'm a lucky girl if I gave up my freedom to wear what I want, talk to who I want, and drive wherever I want in order to be "treated like a princess."

 

[beenie]

Starsoul, anytime a wardrobe or lifestyle is forced on women, they are not treated well, liberated, or free.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Starsoul, anytime a wardrobe or lifestyle is forced on women, they are not treated well, liberated, or free.

:bow: Outstanding! :bow:

 

[MissAlice]

Starsoul, anytime a wardrobe or lifestyle is forced on women, they are not treated well, liberated, or free.

Agreed.

It is one thing for a woman to CHOOSE what she wears but it is quite another thing when a society, religion, culture mandate a said dress code because of her gender.

I've read through this whole thread thinking I might get a better understanding of why women SHOULD wear piece of head cloth and to my disappointment so far I have learned nothing except that the burden of such attitudes lies mostly on the woman in the eyes of both man and allah. I can't say much about Islam but in light of each individual's belief, but I must say it seems that there is an overwhelming attitude that it is the woman that must be controlled not the man. Even in rape cases in course of the shariah law, I'm a bit disgusted by how the victims are treated....as the adulterers. Rape is a universal problem and not one in which it is the woman or girl's fault. I see this excuse even in the western culture where it is usually the female's fault. I had a friend who was sexually abused by her step dad. She said nothing about it for a long time. I made the dumb mistake by making her tell her mother whom I didn't know well. Fortunately the mother blamed her for the way she dressed and chose her husband over her daughter. She lived with her aunt for a while and the rest I don't want to get into since it goes off the topic of this discussion but you see where I'm going with this?

 

[kai]

MOD POST

Personal Attacks will not be tolerated, and folks stay on topic please​

 

[gnostic]

Well, the Muslim women are not happy about the veil ban, as most of them in the west do it out of their own choice.

And yes, some men do have the chauvinistic attitude towards their wives, but that is not something to link Islam with. Its all about your up-bringing and the openness of your mind, The Prophet (pbuh) set many examples and He was really very kind to all of his wives. And one of his wives was a business woman. That pretty much describes how he honored all of them, Muslims can very well take His examples if they wish to.

Technically, you are incorrect.

Khadijah bint Khuwaylid was already a business woman before her marriage to Muhammad. It had nothing to do with Muhammad letting her to do business when she was already one before she even met her distant cousin. This (referring to the marriage) was 15 years prior to Muhammad's 1st visit by the angel Gabriel, hence 15 years before Muhammad became a prophet.

So it is nonsense to say that Islam or Muhammad allow women to become business-women (merchants or traders). Business women existed prior to Muhammad, hence pre-Islamic situation. I think it is misleading to assume otherwise.

Khadijah was the one who had power when she married the then 25-year-old, pre-prophet Muhammad.

 

[Cypress]

@ >>Audiodidact>> WARNING: You better remove your offenive post, and the images in it, You have really projected a sick image of yourself in this thread, Muslims dont undress their respect figures to show the whole world a blatant display of nakedness. You want to undress your parents for projection of your Glory, fine, do it in your drawing room, or on your sick Tv, don't show them to us!


Start another thread where you can spill your sick ideas and thoughts over, this is not the debate section. And I couldn't care less about what you say, what i said in the earlier post was not in context of the history of the world, it was in the context of the british invasion in the subcontinent.

And why do your BURN your thoughts out so much for people who live in the tents if you think what they endorse as an expression of living is ' oppressed, and powerless' ? you can walk around naked on the streets for all i care, thats the freedom of expression your pysche identifies with, what makes you think That 'Your' ideas are THE ideas of Freedom and Your definition of Oppression IS THE definition of oppression.

Neighter her posts nor her ideas are offensive or sick.
Check your tune.

 

[Sahar]

Oh God!! Can't a Muslim check this thread without seeing some people getting sexually excited after an avatar or without seeing statues of penises?!! Is having a decent respectful debate that difficult?