Islam and Women : The Head Scarf

[beenie]

Allow me to clarify one thing, to me the Hijab is just the headscarf, the Niqab is the Saudi-type face covering which reveals only the eyes, and the Burki to my knowledge is an Afghani dress which covers absolutely everything except for a loosly-stitched segmeant near the eyes, so that you cannot see anything.

Now, I personally have no problem with the Hijab, I mean c'mon it's basically just a headscarf, the Niqab and Burka though are different issues, not because of the actual body dress but because of the identity-hiding face section.

One thing I must argue though is that I really, really don't acgree with this idea that the Hijab "preserves modesty/chastity/purity" etc, and that it's used as an effective counter-rape tactic (LOLWUT?). I also disagree that it prevents Men from perving on Women and somehow generates additional "respect" for them.

"Modesty" and ideas like that should be assessed through behavour and conduct, not dress sense. As we have seen with the many tribal areas of the World where Women spend all their time topless, and the Men don't even care about it.

:clap well said.

 

[Autodidact]

Many many westerners both females and males tend to hold this twisted thinking regarding Hijab , i.e that we're wearing it to help men lower their gaze and preserve their chastity, lol

To help WHAT?? No!! Thats not what we want at all , in fact Hijab is more about not caring about what men think lol so the idea is basically wrong but let me explain more specifically:

Then you disagree completely with the OP? I was responding to the OP.

Hijab is about OUR protection, OUR personality , OUR preservation and chastity. You think if I wear Hijab, sick men wont have sexual desires towards women anymore ? Never! Sick men are sick men, but at least they wont have sexual desire about ME.

Our bodies naturally atract men, and when its happens men would do anything to get you: wether by abusing you emotionally ( if they're smart) or physically ( if they're dumb and dangerous). And Im sure you know how words like I love you or you're the women of my life , if said by guys we like, turn us to dumb little girls which you can shape as it fits you lol.

Now to protect our selves, Quran teaches us two basic levels of protection from abuse : 1) Protect our bodies by Hijab 2) Protect our emotions by not leaning in discussion ( dont know if its the correct word but Ill explain )

Part of Quran ( 33: 32):

If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.

Since you're in a western country I dont think you may have the chance to see how muslim females ( if sticking to religion correctly ) deal with men, if you were here in my country I would have shown you but Ill give you an example to approach the idea:

Say that you went to a market and the merchant liked you. Of course he will use anything to get you, and of course he thinks that between you and him theres a vast large area filled with flowers and butterflies , i.e easy prey.

Now, first of all he noticed that you're wearing Hijab so he cant see your beautiful body , bingo you just built the first line of bricks of your future wall

Then when you're near he welcome you with a large smile and blinking eyes, but you remember the second teaching of Islam; so you dont smile back at him and of course you lower your gaze you dont look in his eyes for too long ( I forgot to mention this teaching). Main point: You keep a dead face when dealing with men/

Congratulations! He's shocked , and youve just added the second line of bricks on your whole new wall. But hes still convinced that he can get you, the challenge keeps growing for him and hes sure you'll surrender at the end

Merchant (stupid smile and blinking eyes) : How can I serve you Miss?

Customer ( dead face) : I need X and Y

Merchant : Oh you want that!! What a coincidence ! You know, yesterday a lady came to take the exact same thing and you know what happened ... Blah Blah Blah

Customer ( dead face, not paying attention, ignoring etc)

Now, you may or may not be familiar with this technic but I assure you, as Im filled with more than thousands of similar experiences, that at this specific moment the merchant shut his big mouth , give you want you want silently , and sometimes if hes really shocked he cant even look at you anymore in the front and he lowers his gaze.


You may find it cruel, men may find you impolite but thats whats Hijab is all about: You dont care a minute about what they think as long as they're letting you alone.

Of course this technic is to be used with the majority of men that you dont care about, but of course you'll be wondering that you may like a men too and want to attract him to get his attention. But here you gotta have a strong faith to keep yourself clean because as Muslims we believe we'll be rewarded for our patience on keeping chastity.

Thats on the emotional level, on the physical one:

You may or may not notice it or may even ignore it , but some men can have really erotic ideas about you if they like your body. Some females may like the idea , but for us or me personally it is the most disgusting thing for me ever.

Which law gave him the right to think about ME that way??

Who gave him the permission?? You dont just come and have disgusting thoughts about me .

Moreover, if a men has such thoughts about you ( I said if a men, not all of them) , he may try to show you that he cares about what you think , your personality , your ideas; but trust me all his talks are based on something totally different.

And that is why, as Muslims, we do not give anyone the opportunity to minimize us to a beautiful object ( like they usually do in commercials, Ive never understood the relationship between beautiful girls and washing machines but anyway), we force men to interact with us ,when needed, mentally not physically. We push our personalities , ideas , ideologies and thoughts on the frontground by putting our physical beauty in the background. But of course and as I said earlier, only faith can make you keep steadfast on it because desires can throw you in the darkest places ever.


And personally, I think the idea of Hijab is the most connected idea to the ideology of Feminism, since we are the ones hurting men more than any presumed Feminist and thats what Feminism is all about

Sounds like you really hate and mistrust men.

My view is that I should be able to dress, walk, travel and speak freely--as freely as men, and it's the job of my government to keep me safe while I do that.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Sounds like you really hate and mistrust men.

Sounds like you thought I was serious with my last sentence.

As for mistrusting, then I just give value to my beauty and body by not letting everyone wether hes good or bad enjoy looking at it as he wishes. Never, if you wanna enjoy it you gotta strive or just go find some free beauties ( I mean free beauties to watch, not that they come for free ) to catch or to date or anything else. As for us, nothing works on us except marriage.

As for this:

My view is that I should be able to dress, walk, travel and speak freely--as freely as men, and it's the job of my government to keep me safe while I do that.

Then Im not the kind of person who rely on others to protect her, or to give importance to her skills. I do that myself.

Also, after saying this " free as man" you should try to tolerate the freedom of men too. Not all men are like that ( before you think that Im a freak ) , I know that there are men who love you for who you are etc , but if they wanna get something in Islam, they'll need to enter the golden cage where he become responsible financially and emotianally for your AND for your kids.
i.e you dont just love me, make me pregnant and then tell me you finally found your soul mate nd intend to leave me sinking with the kids, No , the law protect me from that and I protect myself by not letting anyone have anything without marriage.

Btw, it sounds you still think Hijab protect you from being raped lol.
This is what I wrote:

we force men to interact with us ,when needed, mentally not physically. We push our personalities , ideas , ideologies and thoughts on the frontground by putting our physical beauty in the background. But of course and as I said earlier, only faith can make you keep steadfast on it because desires can throw you in the darkest places ever.

 

[love]

Many many westerners both females and males tend to hold this twisted thinking regarding Hijab , i.e that we're wearing it to help men lower their gaze and preserve their chastity, lol

To help WHAT?? No!! Thats not what we want at all , in fact Hijab is more about not caring about what men think lol so the idea is basically wrong but let me explain more specifically:

Hijab is about OUR protection, OUR personality , OUR preservation and chastity. You think if I wear Hijab, sick men wont have sexual desires towards women anymore ? Never! Sick men are sick men, but at least they wont have sexual desire about ME.

Our bodies naturally atract men, and when its happens men would do anything to get you: wether by abusing you emotionally ( if they're smart) or physically ( if they're dumb and dangerous). And Im sure you know how words like I love you or you're the women of my life , if said by guys we like, turn us to dumb little girls which you can shape as it fits you lol.

Now to protect our selves, Quran teaches us two basic levels of protection from abuse : 1) Protect our bodies by Hijab 2) Protect our emotions by not leaning in discussion ( dont know if its the correct word but Ill explain )

Part of Quran ( 33: 32):

If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.

Since you're in a western country I dont think you may have the chance to see how muslim females ( if sticking to religion correctly ) deal with men, if you were here in my country I would have shown you but Ill give you an example to approach the idea:

Say that you went to a market and the merchant liked you. Of course he will use anything to get you, and of course he thinks that between you and him theres a vast large area filled with flowers and butterflies , i.e easy prey.

Now, first of all he noticed that you're wearing Hijab so he cant see your beautiful body , bingo you just built the first line of bricks of your future wall

Then when you're near he welcome you with a large smile and blinking eyes, but you remember the second teaching of Islam; so you dont smile back at him and of course you lower your gaze you dont look in his eyes for too long ( I forgot to mention this teaching). Main point: You keep a dead face when dealing with men/

Congratulations! He's shocked , and youve just added the second line of bricks on your whole new wall. But hes still convinced that he can get you, the challenge keeps growing for him and hes sure you'll surrender at the end

Merchant (stupid smile and blinking eyes) : How can I serve you Miss?

Customer ( dead face) : I need X and Y

Merchant : Oh you want that!! What a coincidence ! You know, yesterday a lady came to take the exact same thing and you know what happened ... Blah Blah Blah

Customer ( dead face, not paying attention, ignoring etc)

Now, you may or may not be familiar with this technic but I assure you, as Im filled with more than thousands of similar experiences, that at this specific moment the merchant shut his big mouth , give you want you want silently , and sometimes if hes really shocked he cant even look at you anymore in the front and he lowers his gaze.


You may find it cruel, men may find you impolite but thats whats Hijab is all about: You dont care a minute about what they think as long as they're letting you alone.

Of course this technic is to be used with the majority of men that you dont care about, but of course you'll be wondering that you may like a men too and want to attract him to get his attention. But here you gotta have a strong faith to keep yourself clean because as Muslims we believe we'll be rewarded for our patience on keeping chastity.

Thats on the emotional level, on the physical one:

You may or may not notice it or may even ignore it , but some men can have really erotic ideas about you if they like your body. Some females may like the idea , but for us or me personally it is the most disgusting thing for me ever.

Which law gave him the right to think about ME that way??

Who gave him the permission?? You dont just come and have disgusting thoughts about me .

Moreover, if a men has such thoughts about you ( I said if a men, not all of them) , he may try to show you that he cares about what you think , your personality , your ideas; but trust me all his talks are based on something totally different.

And that is why, as Muslims, we do not give anyone the opportunity to minimize us to a beautiful object ( like they usually do in commercials, Ive never understood the relationship between beautiful girls and washing machines but anyway), we force men to interact with us ,when needed, mentally not physically. We push our personalities , ideas , ideologies and thoughts on the frontground by putting our physical beauty in the background. But of course and as I said earlier, only faith can make you keep steadfast on it because desires can throw you in the darkest places ever.


And personally, I think the idea of Hijab is the most connected idea to the ideology of Feminism, since we are the ones hurting men more than any presumed Feminist and thats what Feminism is all about

I would like to put a different spin on this tale.
First let me begin with the saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.To go a little deeper beauty can be found in how you carry yourself, how you speak, and so many variables it can only be described as in the eye of the beholder.
In a society where women are covered but men are not you can't tell me women involved don't consider the man's physical attributes.
In a world where physical beauty is paramount most women will feel that they fall short. Of 10,000 applicants to a high profile modeling agency only a few will be choosen. That does not mean that the women rejected don't have the qualities that would make any man swoon.
You describe a woman who knows her beauty and must guard against the advances of men at every turn even though she is totally covered.
You must think I have a veil over my brain. A woman of extraordinry beauty in such a society would be recognized as such by her family and unlikely be allowed to go the market or anywhere else alone. But it would never the less be common knowledge that such a beauty existed. She would be trapped by her beauty even though she was veiled. The bidders would probably include rich, old, fat farts with three wives.
But let us consider for a moment the woman of average beauty or the one whose self esteem has lowered her self conscience. When she is offered to a man of even modest means she will certainly dread the unveling at the bridal bed.
That puts a lot of pressure on how it goes from there. She may have the skills to gain the upper hand at that moment. But it would have to be a natural gift because she would not have any experience to fall back on.
It could go the other way and she could become a brow beaten servant for the rest of her life and the lower her spouses self esteem the lower she would become.
But these things go on all over the world everyday, just more so in some cultures.

 

[hyacinthus]

Actually that wisdom is lost entirely on me. I think people should really get to know everything about each other before they get married, and that includes sex. My life has certainly not been detrimented because of my premarital sex. So when you say "anyone" you might want to be a little more exclusive.

I am an atheist myself, though i believe the promiscuity is a matter of personal choice not limited to any group or religious members. i believe in the adherence to propriety and discipline in sexual matters. anko chose to be a promiscuous atheist ( which is his choice) while i chose to be a chaste atheist because of a sense of reverence to human values combined with an understanding of the acute need to preserve the integrity and honor of Atheism.

 

[blackout]

It is now offensive to call a beautiful and alluring woman, beautiful and alluring.

For those of you who missed the notice.

 

[Starsoul]

It is now offensive to call a beautiful and alluring woman, beautiful and alluring.

For those of you who missed the notice.

No its not. Incase you've clearly skipped, It was homosexuality, and In Islam That is an offense.

 

[blackout]

No its not. Incase you've clearly skipped, It was homosexuality, and In Islam That is an offense.

So if a bisexual or lesbian woman
finds a woman in a veil attractive....
what then?

And if a heterosexual male finds a woman in a veil attractive...
what then?

Are we all to just keep quiet about it?
Not mention it?

I don't get it.

What is the point of the veil
if it does nothing to veil a woman's sexual beauty,
from .... people.... who might might find her attractive?

Bottom line, if you don't want men and/or women
to find you attractive
you are going to have to make yourselves ugly.
Unattractive.
Plain and simple.
And a veil won't do it.

Veils on attractive women
hide nothing.
As I've said before
veils on a beautiful woman
can make her even more alluring.
It's true.
What can I say?

 

[beenie]

So if a bisexual or lesbian woman
finds a woman in a veil attractive....
what then?

And if a heterosexual male finds a woman in a veil attractive...
what then?

Are we all to just keep quiet about it?
Not mention it?

I don't get it.

What is the point of the veil
if it does nothing to veil a woman's sexual beauty,
from .... people.... who might might find her attractive?

Bottom line, if you don't want men and/or women
to find you attractive
you are going to have to make yourselves ugly.
Unattractive.
Plain and simple.
And a veil won't do it.

Veils on attractive women
hide nothing.

i'm afraid i don't follow what you're talking about, unless you're referring to not4me's avatar and your exchange with her...

anyway, i agree that wearing a headcover doesn't completely take away the beauty of a woman, especially when she wears make-up, is dressed well, etc. that's why you'll see many women wear the headcover, no make-up, the long dress and all in very subdued, dull colors. i don't like this practice either, as i think it's unnecessary to look drab.

but who am i?

 

[blackout]

i'm afraid i don't follow what you're talking about, unless you're referring to not4me's avatar and your exchange with her...

anyway, i agree that wearing a headcover doesn't completely take away the beauty of a woman, especially when she wears make-up, is dressed well, etc. that's why you'll see many women wear the headcover, no make-up, the long dress and all in very subdued, dull colors. i don't like this practice either, as i think it's unnecessary to look drab.

but who am i?

Avitars say things.

They say "beautiful", "snarky", "revolting", "alluring", "sexy", "silly", "cute", "warm and fuzzy"....

whatever.

And I never had an exchange with not4me.
Besides the suggestion that she put me on ignore.

I wrote a post that referenced her avitar,
because it made my point.
It was nothing personal.

(though I might add,
if you don't want your avitar to "say"
a particular thing?
Don't pick an avitar that says it.)

 

[Sahar]

Violet, you are not on my ignore at all, actually no-one is. I thought your remark was completely out of line, I didn't like it but I didn't report it either or something...just to let you know. And actually I wanted to reply to your posts and have a discussion with you, (but time didn't allow me)...so we can continue disagreeing and having debates but that the way you phrased your post wasn't appropriate in my opinion...

 

[Starsoul]

@ Ultraviolet:

Your statement is self contradictory.

Anyhow, are you implying that less than average looking girls don't or shouldn't get married? Or you probably think that woman In parts of the world where they cover up completely, don't get married and have children?

In either case, all these women not only get married , but they have very satisfactory lives as compared to the ,lets say, hollywood's ageless timeless beauties, who have a very poor success rate in marriages.

Sometimes i just feel for them, because I feel that their beauty is just lost and wasted for the purpose of appreciation by the whole world, and even if the whole world worships them for their beauty, they are dumped by their husbands for a better new face or they die depressed (not all, but an overwhelming majority) How good is a beauty which brings so much sorrow...

And do you think men did not find women beautiful when makeup and fancy clothes were not invented? I'm so sure a man loved his wife even in a drab then. I can almost bet marriages were more soulful and long lasting back then than in today's world.

Because the concept of beauty has destroyed countless homes for the search of better, for those who are willing to fall for it.

 

[blackout]

Violet, you are not on my ignore at all, actually no-one is. I thought your remark was completely out of line, I didn't like it but I didn't report it either or something...just to let you know. And actually I wanted to reply to your posts and have a discussion with you, (but time didn't allow me)...so we can continue disagreeing and having debates but that the way you phrased your post wasn't appropriate in my opinion...

Unfortunately I don't have time right now to actually exchange with you.

(Dare I say) that I like you,
and I find this whole thing was blown way out of proportion.

Perhaps if you and I had ACTUALLY had an exchange,
you would have realized my post was not personal.

Sometimes the best way to make a point
is to just make it.

Of course there are things about me
you are not going to like or understand.
(including my bisexuality)
I figure we're here to try and understand one another.

Anyway,
I have to go out now.

Don't want to be your enemy.
Never did.
~Violet~

 

[Autodidact]

Here's my view on the head scarf, burka, turban, tefillin, wig, yarmulke, etc.

Here you have a universe with thousands of trillions of stars, nebulae, black holes, and trillions of trillions of miles of vast empty space. In one tiny corner there is the equivalent basically of a sub-atomic particle. On the thin skin of that particle live more than 12 million different species of organisms. And the Creator of all of this, who has swirled the vast dark with innumerable suns and set galaxies on their course, is extremely concerned about what one of those species chooses to wear on its head? It just seems like about the least likely thing imaginable to me.

 

[Cypress]

Here's my view on the head scarf, burka, turban, tefillin, wig, yarmulke, etc.

Here you have a universe with thousands of trillions of stars, nebulae, black holes, and trillions of trillions of miles of vast empty space. In one tiny corner there is the equivalent basically of a sub-atomic particle. On the thin skin of that particle live more than 12 million different species of organisms. And the Creator of all of this, who has swirled the vast dark with innumerably suns and set galazies on their course, is extremely concerned about what one of those species chooses to wear on its head? It just seems like about the least likely thing imaginable to me.

Very good comment.
I think those who place such emphasis on things of complete unimportance in the name of their god do not realize how small & insignificant the make him look like, how limited & poor their idea of a supreme being is.

 

[Looncall]

Just pointing to one reason why men are not required to cover up in front of women. But, like I said, just one reason.

The reason for veiling is that women are considered to be livestock, to be traded away in arranged marriages for the benefit of men. All this guff about purity is hypocrisy. Muslims are just aping nasty arab marriage and inheritance customs.

I note that muslim men are notorious as rapists and abusers of boys. Sexual apartheid does not strike me as such a very good idea.

 

[beenie]

The reason for veiling is that women are considered to be livestock, to be traded away in arranged marriages for the benefit of men. All this guff about purity is hypocrisy. Muslims are just aping nasty arab marriage and inheritance customs.

I note that muslim men are notorious as rapists and abusers of boys. Sexual apartheid does not strike me as such a very good idea.

why don't you post some facts instead of random hate-speech?
men rape and abuse everywhere.

 

[Meow Mix]

Yeah I'm not really a fan of the anti-Muslim vitriol and stereotyping either. Can't we get along here without just being mean-spirited?

 

[Cypress]

The reason for veiling is that women are considered to be livestock, to be traded away in arranged marriages for the benefit of men. All this guff about purity is hypocrisy. Muslims are just aping nasty arab marriage and inheritance customs.

I note that muslim men are notorious as rapists and abusers of boys. Sexual apartheid does not strike me as such a very good idea.

Look at the Catholic Church: If women are forbidden, men turn to children.

 

[Starsoul]

The reason for veiling is that women are considered to be livestock, to be traded away in arranged marriages for the benefit of men. All this guff about purity is hypocrisy. Muslims are just aping nasty arab marriage and inheritance customs.

I note that muslim men are notorious as rapists and abusers of boys. Sexual apartheid does not strike me as such a very good idea.

Ofcorse why not, we have plenty of evidence standing tall and shinning bright for the claims of piousness & purity of non-muslim men. They not only treat their women like fairies, they make sure it happens every hour of everyday. Infact the statistics are so ever on the rise, they might just make huge impressions on muslim men for them to follow such morally sound enlightened practices.

"Every 2 minutes, someone in the U.S. is sexually assaulted."

A Report by Rape Abuse &Incest National Network


The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics. It's 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.



In 2007, there were 248,300 victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault.1 (These figures do not include victims 12 years old or younger.)[cant imagine the statistics to go beyond the moon when that happens.]

Here's the math. According to the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey -- the country's largest and most reliable crime study -- there were 248,300 sexual assaults in 2007 (the most recent data available).

There are 525,600 minutes in a non-leap year. That makes 31,536,000 seconds/year. So, 31,536,000 divided by 248,300 comes out to 1 sexual assault every 127 seconds, or about 1 every 2 minutes."

Must say thats an Impressive record. Keep it up.