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Islam as a dangerous bet with no return

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
But we are also kind, compassionate, caring, loving, worshipful and happy. Oh no.
That is true, but we have looked far more at things like this, and have discovered things such as empathy and mirror neurons, but when it comes to our violent tendencies we want to blame religion, blame video games, or blame this-or-that ideology. We seem extremely reluctant to blame ourselves, and acknowledge we may not be dealing with a religious fundamentalist problem, but a fundamental human problem.
 

faroukfarouk

Active Member
Hello Luis
No doubt you have your rights to be critical.But consider.......
If 10 people go to a ice cream shop and all buy different flavors of ice cream.
So what do we learn.
All 10 ate ice cream but all 10 got different taste of the ice cream.
Now go and figure if a million people has to study Islam then will all derive the same knowledge?
Further better than a thousand hollow words just one good word can bring peace.There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it.
In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.The tongue is like a sharp knife and it can kill without drawing blood.Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.There is nothing more dreadful than hate.Hate is a poison that disintegrates friendships and breaks up pleasant relations. It is a thorn that irritates and hurts; it is a sword that kills.
Finally whatever words we utter should be chosen with care for people will hear them and be influenced by them for evil.
Peace
faroukfarouk
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hello Luis


Hello, Farouk.


No doubt you have your rights to be critical.But consider.......
If 10 people go to a ice cream shop and all buy different flavors of ice cream.
So what do we learn.
All 10 ate ice cream but all 10 got different taste of the ice cream.
Now go and figure if a million people has to study Islam then will all derive the same knowledge?

Obviously not. Not sure what you mean to say here.

Further better than a thousand hollow words just one good word can bring peace.There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it.

I don't think I can agree with that.

In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.The tongue is like a sharp knife and it can kill without drawing blood.Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.There is nothing more dreadful than hate. Hate is a poison that disintegrates friendships and breaks up pleasant relations. It is a thorn that irritates and hurts; it is a sword that kills.
Finally whatever words we utter should be chosen with care for people will hear them and be influenced by them for evil.
Peace
faroukfarouk

Honestly, I'm still not sure what you meant to say.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
.....On a minor note: It should be remembered that DawudTalut is an Ahmadiyya Muslim and represents the thinking of a fraction of a fraction of the Muslim world.
Peace be on you.

Thanks you....but may I humbly remind that in the world of religious reforms, the sphere of true divinely sent reformers spreads, there are happenings with results e.g.

[Quran @ alislam.org ch2: words from v250] "..........................‘How many a small party has triumphed over a large party by Allah’s command! And Allah is with the steadfast.’"

[7:138] "And We caused the people who were considered weak to inherit the eastern parts of the land and the western parts thereof, which We blessed. And the gracious word of thy Lord was fulfilled for the children of Israel because they were steadfast; and We destroyed all that Pharaoh and his people had built and all that they had erected."
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Is Islam ideology holds peaceful ??
Is Islam carries moral ideology intact ??
Is Islam holds ideology believes in freedom ??
Is Islamic laws best of humanitarian laws ???
Is the Koran is the one who announced the idea of one God ??
What is the good thing about the Islamic ideology ??
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Peace be on you.

Thanks you....but may I humbly remind that in the world of religious reforms, the sphere of true divinely sent reformers spreads, there are happenings with results e.g.

[Quran @ alislam.org ch2: words from v250] "..........................‘How many a small party has triumphed over a large party by Allah’s command! And Allah is with the steadfast.’"

[7:138] "And We caused the people who were considered weak to inherit the eastern parts of the land and the western parts thereof, which We blessed. And the gracious word of thy Lord was fulfilled for the children of Israel because they were steadfast; and We destroyed all that Pharaoh and his people had built and all that they had erected."
Sadly, the Muslim world does not give a hoot what Ahmadiyya Muslim have to say on much of any consequence.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Is Islam ideology holds peaceful ??

Often. Not always.

Is Islam carries moral ideology intact ??

If you mean as compared to some original standard of reference established about 1400 years ago or even earlier, then I would say that it tries hard, but it is not a good thing that it does.

Is Islam holds ideology believes in freedom ??

Apparently not. The word does not mean "submission" for nothing.

Is Islamic laws best of humanitarian laws ???

It would be very hard to convince me of that, if the stances they have towards women's rights, homosexuality and freedom of belief are any indication.

Is the Koran is the one who announced the idea of one God ??

If you mean to ask whether it was the Quran that introduced the idea of a monotheism with a God that somehow has power over everyone regardless of belief, that idea goes back to the Gospels at least, a few centuries earlier, doesn't it?


What is the good thing about the Islamic ideology ??

It values hospitality, straightforwardness, respect for one's duties towards the community.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Is Islam ideology holds peaceful ??
Is Islam carries moral ideology intact ??
Peace be on you.
A-- You are very welcome to know about morals, its stages and how they evolve to reach spirituality @
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

B- Current Islamic societies are not paying enough attention to real Islamic morals, need to rise.


Is Islam holds ideology believes in freedom ??
Yes, Real Islam gives freedom from many chains which were tied by people around their bodies by themselves. As you live under laws in a country, similarly as a real Muslim one has to follow laws of ethics of Quran.


Is Islamic laws best of humanitarian laws ???
Yes the best of best, if practiced in true sense, not in the way, current politico-religious rulers and their subjects are practicing.
You are welcome @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Islam-HR.pdf
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/Islam-HR.pdf


Is the Koran is the one who announced the idea of one God ??
Idea of One-God [Tauheed] is the root of all religions which began to evolve right from Prophet Adam (on whom be peace) and the second part was human rights. The real Christianity was believer of One-God too. At Islam the evolution of understanding of One-God and human rights got perfected.



What is the good thing about the Islamic ideology ??
It gives teaching to human how to grow from cradle to grave; it explains how our faith and deeds will make effect on our life in the Hereafter. How to love God and humanity.
It is hope in Islam that one waits one day, good person like you will join it. It gives hope everyone will join it.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
As of late I have come to feel that the religion of Islam is ultimately very dangerous in an usually well-meaning way.

While it is very plain that most Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning, very honest people, it is just as obvious that Muslim cultures just aren't well equiped to deal with questioning of the Quran and of tradition.

It is almost embarrassing at times, when one realizes that at least some Muslims sincerely do believe that deep down we are in awe of the Quran, in denial of our supposed deep knowledge that there is a creator God, in flippant or proud defiance of the divine disapproval of homosexuality.

There is a whole lot of belief floating up there, and far too little acceptance of things as they are.

In a way it is much like passive-aggressive manipulation.

When a Muslim fails to accept that there are indeed misguided theists and well-meaning atheists, that no one needs to justify themselves to the Quran or to God, it is his or her own problem... except that it may very easily become someone else's, even everyone else's problem.

People have needs and expectations. They need land to live in, political structures to make decisions on their behalf, mutual cooperation in order to have a measure of stability and security.

It is a sublime yet rather fragile weave of mutual cooperation, all too easily perverted, neglected or corrupted, as we all can tell. And it is particularly vulnerable to people with a sincere yet fragile belief that forces others to become either their subjects or their challengers.

Which, I have come to realize, is all too often exactly the role that Muslims impose upon themselves, apparently because for the most part they have never really learned other ways of living, and may well have been raised into an instinctive rejection of even considering anything else.

Dealing constructively with such a situation is possible, yet unavoidably challenging. We must walk a rather narrow path that exists in the intersection of the firm decision to be respectful of people who usually mean well and are nearly always just taken by fear of change when they do not and the solid acknowledgement that people are not always reasonable and may well do things that they would repent doing if they knew better.

In short, we must learn to respect them while at the same time refusing the continued, insistent, often sincerely unconscious invitations for us to submit to their self-imposed needs and expectations, from which they are basically unable of ever releasing us.

We must learn to be at ease challenging them quite consistently, quite fiercely in fact - because they are not truly equipped to accept anything more conciliatory without perceiving it as a prelude to subjugation. They seem to rarely ever learn any better. They are literally bred to believe that deep down we need or want to take refuge in the wisdom of the Quran and the grace of God, our own protests being supposedly evidence of how much patience they must have towards us, not of what we truly want or need.

It is very difficult to counter such a state of mind - which may well explain why Islam is such a demographic success despite what is, frankly, a rather disastrous theology and doctrine, far too often fully occupied with efforts to deny its own branches and sister faiths to make much if any advance in actual relevant religious matters such as nurturing brotherhood and other moral virtues.

But I digress. How should we deal with Muslims then? To the best of my knowledge, by exercising genuine respect and caring. It is very important not to attempt to deceive Muslims. There is very little hope of tricking Muslims out of their tendency of somewhat innocently perceive non-Muslims as lesser people, and it would (and historically was) very destructive to make such an attempt.

We must make every sincere effort to truly earn their respect and keep deserving it, even while making it abundantly clear that we are not Muslims-in-the-making, and in many cases are all too certain that we could never be. We must, as a matter of fact, leave them no choice but to respect us despite our often deep disagreements. We must suffer on their stead, take trouble for their well being, bleed for them, hunger for them, die for them if it comes to that. We must not only be certain that they are wrong in hoping for our collective need to ultimately submit to the Quran's authority, but actually win them over, if not to agreement, at least to genuine, earned respect.

True respect, that is. The one that arises not of cheap agreement of words, but often of showing the value of deeds over disagreements on esoterical matters of lesser importance such as, say, how many gods there are or fail to exist, who their prophets might be, which sexual ethics they might expect of people, how many hells do exist and how one gets assigned to them. All of those are petty distractions unworthy of anyone's attention. We should waste no time with such nuisances and care instead about true religion, true civilization, true human consideration. Once that is well established we might return to those matters if there is anything in there for us - which is not very likely at all, in my opinion.

Attaining such a difficult yet deeply rewarding feat, in and of itself, goes a long way towards lessening many of the dangers associated with Islam, and should be rewarding every step of the way.

It saddens me that instead we seem to be sliding gradually yet surely towards badly hidden hopes of scaring, overpowering, surviving or just blasting out of existence those who we have such a hard time dealing with.

That led to tragedy pretty much every single time in human history, and it is not at all likely to bring better results any time in the future.

I was surprised that the post received so few likes.

How can we separate the effects of various other factors and pin the apparent effects on a particular religion only? This post seems so much opposed to the concept of 'interdependent rising'.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
.....How can we separate the effects of various other factors and pin the apparent effects on a particular religion only? .......
Control on Oil and natural resources
Arms selling and testing
Land
Dynasties
Corrupt leaders and clergies
-
-
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
How can we separate the effects of various other factors and pin the apparent effects on a particular religion only?

Carefully and if at all possible while aware of the seriousness of the matter.


This post seems so much opposed to the concept of 'interdependent rising'.

Is that so? I'm not seeing it, but of course I am suspect.

Being aware of interdependent arising does not in my mind translate into an inability of perceiving causes and consequences.

It does mean being wary of "origin and destination" complex chains, but even those are not necessarily false.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
In a way it is much like passive-aggressive manipulation.

We must learn to be at ease challenging them quite consistently, quite fiercely in fact -

But I digress. How should we deal with Muslims then? To the best of my knowledge, by exercising genuine respect and caring.

We must make every sincere effort to truly earn their respect

True respect, that is.

It saddens me that instead we seem to be sliding gradually yet surely towards badly hidden hopes of scaring, overpowering, surviving or just blasting out of existence those who we have such a hard time dealing with.

Hello again.
I read the post a few times............
I'm just mind-boggled at how the scattered ideas in that post could be considered as an appropriate approach towards a religion of millions of people.
Your use of 'passive-aggressive' to describe what is in fact an extremely assertive following is amazing. To use a definition created to coerce and manipulate diplomatic reservation in, for instance, employees, and force them into the 'you're with us or against' policies of (often) inept management organisations is ....... so out of context.

So you want 'us' to respect Islam.......... how.... by supporting sleazy nasty little pictures of the prophet and calling this free speech, and then howling when such scummy ideas cause conflict? Thank goodness that Washington has banned such nasty pictures from its public transport system. Common sense at last.

So you want a successful working community......... yet I have read that there would be no Courts to support legislation, no laws, or at least no lawyers in your world. The people would be subdued, as now, by masses of laws (!!!! amazing!!!) banning all kinds of commodities, yet I haven't yet read about the presence of police forces to uphold community decisions..... blah blah.
In fact., the World that you might seek to produce could well be an absolute shambles.........

So, it's time to tell us clearly what you would want to do, free of all those double meanings and innuendos that I seem to see there.........
 

Musty

Active Member
Thank you for your post LuisDante.

I am inclined to agree with your view of Islam (Which incidentally applies to the position held by adherents of several religions and ideologies including atheism) and your suggested approach to dealing with them. Islam has largely existing within the confines of societies where it's been the principle belief system and therefore it's adherents have not had to go through to the transition that comes with operating within a more secular and/or multicultural environment that imposes a shift towards towards tolerance and ultimately acceptance that others can hold equally valid but different views to yourself.

Within the UK Christianity has and continues to go through this transition through in some quarters there still remains an assumption that Christian beliefs and values hold precedence over all others. Somewhat ironically parts the growing atheist movement appear to be mirroring the remaining die-hard parts of the Christian community in their intolerance of views which differ from their own, a wholly unhelpful position in my opinion. I suspect that given time Muslims in the west at least will increasingly shift towards a more secular and tolerant position towards non-Muslims.

As you say, the best way to encourage this shift it to demonstrate that non-Muslims are just as worthy of respect as Muslims.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hello again.
I read the post a few times............
I'm just mind-boggled at how the scattered ideas in that post could be considered as an appropriate approach towards a religion of millions of people.

So I take it that you have a better approach? Share it.


Your use of 'passive-aggressive' to describe what is in fact an extremely assertive following is amazing. To use a definition created to coerce and manipulate diplomatic reservation in, for instance, employees, and force them into the 'you're with us or against' policies of (often) inept management organisations is ....... so out of context.

I suspect you are failing to understand what the context is, hence that impression.

So you want 'us' to respect Islam..........

No, I do not. I don't think Islam can actually survive, nor do I think we should spend a lot of effort trying. Its self-imposed contradictions and limitations are far as I can tell terminal.

We should all do our best to give it the most gracious death we can, then move on.

It is Muslims who deserve our respect, not their beliefs.


how.... by supporting sleazy nasty little pictures of the prophet and calling this free speech, and then howling when such scummy ideas cause conflict? Thank goodness that Washington has banned such nasty pictures from its public transport system. Common sense at last.

You are either misguided or confused.


So you want a successful working community......... yet I have read that there would be no Courts to support legislation, no laws, or at least no lawyers in your world.

Last I checked I was no prophet nor creator deity, so to the best of my understanding you mean our world.

I do support a drastic lessening of emphasis on laws, mainly because I perceive them as inherently flawed and therefore dangerous when relied too much on. They are unavoidable, but also unreliable, and a healthy society would treat them as just about as central as, say, lottery.

The people would be subdued, as now, by masses of laws (!!!! amazing!!!) banning all kinds of commodities, yet I haven't yet read about the presence of police forces to uphold community decisions..... blah blah.
In fact., the World that you might seek to produce could well be an absolute shambles.........

So, it's time to tell us clearly what you would want to do, free of all those double meanings and innuendos that I seem to see there.........

What on Earth are you talking about again?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thank you for your post LuisDante.

I am inclined to agree with your view of Islam (Which incidentally applies to the position held by adherents of several religions and ideologies including atheism)

Uh, I am just not seeing it. Maybe you can elaborate on that part?

The whole point of this thread is that of the faiths with comparable demographic success, Islam is indeed remarkable on its degree of self-inflicted defects, mainly because of the intense and unhealthy reliance on belief in a very specific, very questionable understanding of deity.

Such an understanding, as a matter of fact, that I just can't conceive Islam actually surviving as such for more than a couple centuries more, and that if we decide to accept a lot of unnecessary pain in order to over-extend its survival.

When one takes the demographic reach into consideration, only a percentage of Christianity and some assorted fringe groups can even claim to be comparably flawed.

Outside those groups neither religion nor atheism have much of a tendency to become quite that much of a threat. One could pick and choose to perceive things differently, I suppose, but that would ultimately be a fraud, even if well-meaning and self-afflicted.

Your statement implies that you either did not understand that argument or do not agree with even the general outlines of it.

and your suggested approach to dealing with them. Islam has largely existing within the confines of societies where it's been the principle belief system and therefore it's adherents have not had to go through to the transition that comes with operating within a more secular and/or multicultural environment that imposes a shift towards towards tolerance and ultimately acceptance that others can hold equally valid but different views to yourself.

Indeed, and that is the catch. Part of the premise of Islam, as reaffirmed with eerie consistency by various sources, is that it is all-out wrong to even want to operate in a secular or multicultural environment. Islam is supposed to be supreme, all-encompassing, all-absorbing actually. Several Muslims seem to sincerely believe that all it takes for much everyone to accept Islam is to "honestly" read the Quran, to the point that they flat out presume that dissenters are automatically acting out of dishonesty.

I have seen increasing evidence that they are actually unprepared to deal with any other kind of criticism. They seem to hold a firm belief that such honest criticism just can't exist. I for one am not about to passively accept to pay the price for their mistakes. I have the right to challenge their views. So does everyone.

Within the UK Christianity has and continues to go through this transition through in some quarters there still remains an assumption that Christian beliefs and values hold precedence over all others. Somewhat ironically parts the growing atheist movement appear to be mirroring the remaining die-hard parts of the Christian community in their intolerance of views which differ from their own, a wholly unhelpful position in my opinion.

That would be ironical indeed, but is that an actual reality? I keep hearing rumors with no evidence. It is difficult to avoid the perception that it is just wishful thinking, close to if not already firmly into the field of libel and slander.

While I understand that it would be in some senses reassuring to perceive things that way, I can't in good faith encourage such an unfair mistake.

I suspect that given time Muslims in the west at least will increasingly shift towards a more secular and tolerant position towards non-Muslims.

They don't have a choice not to. The matter to be settled is how traumatic that shift will be, and whether Islam as a religion can survive it.


As you say, the best way to encourage this shift it to demonstrate that non-Muslims are just as worthy of respect as Muslims.

Indeed. Even if it means attracting their wrath while we go through the much needed step of pointing out that while Muslims must be respected, Islamic doctrine does not, and will probably have to be challenged all the way into full destruction eventually.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
So I take it that you have a better approach? Share it.

........ in a minute.
You wrote, in your OP:-
In short, we must learn to respect them..............
I asked for confirmation:-
Old-B:So you want 'us' to respect Islam..........
And you just replied:-
No, I do not............

Luis..... your opening post held so much double-meaning, as shown above.
It was just rhetoric, and could have been 'taken' in so many different ways.
You seem to be just riding a fashionable passion, rather than seriously seeking peace in the World.

And who is 'We'? Who are 'We'?
You even point the reader to other options available to the World, such as outright wars.
It's 'this' or it's 'that'!!!! ????

Militant approach? Possibly.
Ah..... you denied and denied and denied (before) that atheism could possibly be militant, but I notice examplres ;popping up now. I shall collect them in the hopes of converting your denial to acceptance, such as that gunweilding atheist nut who initiated a gun toting gathering outside that Phoenix Mosque.

Anyway, here is my suggestion of an approach.
1. Before you criticise the governments of other countries and communities you need to think of a stable and balanced community to better them, and just now your ideas seem (to me) to be dangerously unstable.
2. When you've figured out such a system of communal self-determination, for God's sake don't try and subject any other communities to it........ leave them alone.
3. Leave them alone!

I know that the laws of Islamic countries do not run on principles of equality, but that's not enough to engage them in bloodshed, which I think your viewpoint could lead to in the long run. You've got plenty to sort out in your own country first, and you can't blame Islam for that.

And who the hell are 'WE'?
 
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