Islam is unable to relate to the diverse contemporary cultures

[shunyadragon]

I don't think so. The very official sources of Saudi Arabia for instance mistranslate the Quran to justify the oppression of women. There must be people there who are aware of this and still support it.

According to the Sharia law women must cover them more here less there. It is widely recognized that the source of this rule is a Hadith which by many scholars is considered a weak one.

I accept that Islam is used as a mere reference to a religion that varies in time and place by its charactetstics, but I also believe that many are blasphemous in their religion and that way are not using the Quran as their source. And if your description of Islam is that its basis is in the Quran then there is a contradiction there.

The problem you describe is common in ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The guidance is not clear and specific and open to wide interpretation, particularly concerning the role of women, and fails to address a unified message for the contemporary world for the diverse cultures. What you consider blasphemous would be central to the belief of other Muslims.

There is no contradiction as Islam being based on the Quran. Just contradictions and conflicts between the different divisions of Islam. Those that believe in the Hadith believe it is based on the Quran.

 

[james blunt]

A religion doesn't have the capacity of being stupid either. Like I said you are referring to a bunch of people not a religion in itself.

I was making one example of peoples stupidity ! There is many examples I could give .

 

[Firemorphic]

What about Sufi beliefs. Sufi beliefs as written in Rumi poetry is Muslim beliefs that are universal and embraces all the religions.

"Sufi beliefs", what does that even mean?

Sufi's are Muslims, they are Esotericists. The whole point of the Sufi path is attainment of gnosis, as directly informed by Muhammad and his family. Sufi's are esotercists but have been branded in the 20th century by occult counterculture to be like some kind of sect, you have no idea how strange the misconception of a thing called "Sufism" existing is, when it doesn't exist. Rumi was in the Mevlevi Sufi Order though.
Rumi himself was a devout Sunni Muslim, his poetry is magnificent though, I agree.
Sufi's aren't any more "universal" than regular Islam....as to hint that the Islam of the Qur'an and Muhammad actually IS "Universal"

"Verily, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects - thou hast nothing to do with them. Behold, their case rests with God: and in time He will make them understand what they were doing."

 

[Firemorphic]

Needs clarification here. Your response is confusing. I said, 'Islam is the religion and belief system that has the Quran as its basis of belief, and considers it sacred text inspired by God.'

No:

Islam is the religion and world view that has the Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah at it's basis of belief, considering the Qur'an as a sacred text by God. Within Islam are a very wide range of conflicting world views and ideologies based off extra-scriptural sources (non-verifiable Hadith, people claiming to be new revolutionary leaders or prophets, etc etc etc).​

p.s. Remember, as a Baha'i, you've got to take a respectful nod to Shia Hadith for existing in the first place

 

[Firemorphic]

They're initially the same.

They're not at all, I can verify.

 

[Remté]

The problem you describe is common in ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The guidance is not clear and specific and open to wide interpretation, particularly concerning the role of women, and fails to address a unified message for the contemporary world for the diverse cultures. What you consider blasphemous would be central to the belief of other Muslims.

There is no contradiction as Islam being based on the Quran. Just contradictions and conflicts between the different divisions of Islam. Those that believe in the Hadith believe it is based on the Quran.

Whether the problem occurs in other religions or not makes no difference to what it is in Islam.

The Quran is clear and spesific, although it has been specially made to be understood by the society that it was sent to.

I am not aware of any Muslims who think the Hadith is based on the Quran.

 

[Remté]

They're not at all, I can verify.

How do you think they are different?

 

[Remté]

. Within Islam are a very wide range of conflicting world views and ideologies based off extra-scriptural sources (non-verifiable Hadith, people claiming to be new revolutionary leaders or prophets, etc etc etc).​

Is there a division of Islam that believes in a prophet after Muhammad?

 

[shunyadragon]

Whether the problem occurs in other religions or not makes no difference to what it is in Islam.

Well, it Does happen in Islam, and Islam shares this problem with all ancient religions. It is a very human issue, which represents the inability of Islam to provide any kind of spiritual consistency in the contemporary world.

The Quran is clear and specific, although it has been specially made to be understood by the society that it was sent to.

What you describe as the problems of interpretation and mistranslation of the Quran negates that the Quran is truly clear and specific. The lack of unity and understanding in the conflicts and inconsistencies in Islam do make it out of context with the contemporary world.

I am not aware of any Muslims who think the Hadith is based on the Quran.

Many believe the Hadith is compatible with the Quran, and reflects the early history of Islam, and of course, many do not. That is part of the problem with Islam

 

[Remté]

Well, it Does happen in Islam, and Islam shares this problem with all ancient religions. It is a very human issue, which represents the inability of Islam to provide any kind of spiritual consistency in the contemporary world.

It might only represent your inapability to find a spiritual consistency.

What you describe as the problems of interpretation and mistranslation of the Quran negates that the Quran is truly clear and specific. The lack of unity and understanding in the conflicts and inconsistencies in Islam do make it out of context with the contemporary world.

That has nothing to do with Quran. It is about the Hadiths.

Many believe the Hadith is compatible with the Quran, and reflects the early history of Islam, and of course, many do not. That is part of the problem with Islam

It's not a problem with Islam but with the people.

 

[shunyadragon]

It might only represent your inapability to find a spiritual consistency.

Your ignoring the facts of a divided Islam in conflict within and burdened by an Arabic culture and language in the contemporary world, that your posts have reflected the problem describing mistranslations, problems with interprettions, and calling what other Muslims believe as blasphamis.

It's not a problem with Islam but with the people.

Severe contradiction here. If the religion, in this case Islam, is not reflected in the believers, and the world, it was intended for, it fails to be relevant to the contemporary world

 

[Remté]

Your ignoring the facts of a divided Islam in conflict within and burdened by an Arabic culture and language in the contemporary world, that your posts have reflected the problem describing mistranslations, problems with interprettions, and calling what other Muslims believe as blasphamis.

How much of the conflict relates to Islam and how much to politics?

Severe contradiction here. If the religion, in this case Islam, is not reflected in the believers, and the world, it was intended for, it fails to be relevant to the contemporary world

Not at all.

 

[shunyadragon]

How much of the conflict relates to Islam and how much to politics?

Not at all.

Insufficient response for the problems, divisions, contradiction, conflicts in the reality of Islam regardless how you approach it.

Politics? The teaching of the Quran and Islam is there is no separation of religion and state.

It remains that your view of it being a human or political(?) problem negates the value of Islam being universally relevant in the contemporary world as spiritual guidance for humanity in the real sense.

Actually calling it a human or political(?) problem advocate humanism dominates the Islamic world instead of Divine guidance for humanity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe that at one time Islam was a light to the world and the spiritual renewal of civilization, but no more. As time passed Islam remained cloaked in ancient tribal culture, outdated Shiria Law, failure to separate religion from the secular state, violently divided and failure to acknowledge a diverse evolving world.

Consider the three monotheistic faiths: Judaism has gone through a reformation/update. Christianity has gone through both a Catholic and Protestant reformation/update. Islam has yet to go through a reformation. It still exists in the medieval world. It's time has yet to come.

 

[shunyadragon]

Consider the three monotheistic faiths: Judaism has gone through a reformation/update. Christianity has gone through both a Catholic and Protestant reformation/update. Islam has yet to go through a reformation. It still exists in the medieval world. It's time has yet to come.

Judaism and Christianity have gone through reformation, sort of, but both religions are severely divided over what is considered 'reform,' and like Islam my challenge is similar, they cling to ancient scripture and beliefs out of context with the contemporary world. Reformation has a considerable Humanist influence in trying to rationally adapt to a changing world, which results in divided religions that often do not relate to each other, In Christianity the fundamentalists are strong and dominant in the USA and much of the third world. A large percentage of Christianity remains not in the Medieval World, but in the more ancient view of a literal Bible. Judaism like Islam has an overwhelming tribal cultural identity which separates them from the rest of the world. Both Judaism and Islam are involved in tribal turf wars as they have been for over a thousand years. , and result is divisions in religion and often violence. Like in Christianity and Judaism some in Islam want to reform, but many if not most do not.

In summation I do not consider reformation sufficient to make an ancient religion relevant to the contemporary would outside the context of their own division of that religion. In the end their scripture calls them home, and reform only divides religions between those that want to change and those that do not.

 

[Remté]

Politics? The teaching of the Quran and Islam is there is no separation of religion and state.

The Islam you talk about has little to do with the Quran. Even if looked at this way the result, if Islam was truly following only the Quran (which the Quran tells them to do), would be completely different.

It remains that your view of it being a human or political(?) problem negates the value of Islam being universally relevant in the contemporary world as spiritual guidance for humanity in the real sense.

I don't think true Islam poses political problems, but like you pointed out, there are divisions of Islam who follow the Hadiths and those pose a political problem.

Actually calling it a human or political(?) problem advocate humanism dominates the Islamic world instead of Divine guidance for humanity.

Humanism? No, divine guidance can hardly be said to be dominating the Islamic world.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Islam you talk about has little to do with the Quran. Even if looked at this way the result, if Islam was truly following only the Quran (which the Quran tells them to do), would be completely different.

I believe the fact is ll Muslims believe they follow the Quran regardless of what you assert. So fr in the this thread this asertion and your description of mistranslations, misinterpretations, and claims of blasphamacy reflect the problems I have cited that Islam is divided to the point of not being relevant in provided a unified consistent guidance for the world, not even considering the inconsistent guidance for women in society.

I don't think true Islam poses political problems, but like you pointed out, there are divisions of Islam who follow the Hadiths and those pose a political problem.

Humanism? No, divine guidance can hardly be said to be dominating the Islamic world.

The choice is human motives and humanism or Divine Guidance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You could replace the words Islam and "Shiria Law" for Christianity, and it would be just as correct.

Not really, because at one point in time the Caliphate was a bastion of world learning, progress, and even tolerance towards others. What was practiced then looks nothing like it does today, especially with much of the rest of the world having moved on.

 

[shunyadragon]

No:

Islam is the religion and world view that has the Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah at it's basis of belief, considering the Qur'an as a sacred text by God. Within Islam are a very wide range of conflicting world views and ideologies based off extra-scriptural sources (non-verifiable Hadith,​

​

agree that the Quran is the sacred text of Islam, but apparently not all like @Remté agree.

​

You have described a significant part of my argument where Islam fails to provide unified relevant guidance to a more universal context of the contemporary world

p.s. Remember, as a Baha'i, you've got to take a respectful nod to Shia Hadith for existing in the first place

i never considered the Shia Hadith a problem as @Remté asserts. I believe that the Hadiths, Sunnah and the various Sharia law systems if applicable were for an age of the past that no longer has context nor relevance in today's world. Actually I am a bit indifferent here

I find similar problems with the ancient context of Judaism and Christianity as not relevant to the context of the contemporary world. I realize the objections, but I consider it overwhelmingly obvious that Judaism, Christianity and Islam have a strong cultural context that does not reflect the unified universal that is relevant today. The fact that Judaism and Islam, and wars within Islam, have been involved in a tribal war for thousands of years, virtually negates Islam to become a universal healing force in Islam

people claiming to be new revolutionary leaders or prophets, etc etc etc).

This is true, and a real problem for Islam. I see a not so subtle objection to the Baha'i Faith. The problem is what is the alternative to the failure of not only Islam, but also Judaism and Christianity to provide uniersal guidance to the people of the world?

I believe in God, therefore I choose the Baha'i Faith, but the humanist alternative of belief systems like the Universalist Unitarians is a very relevant alternative lacking the burdens of ancient scripture and religious belief that divide humanity sometimes violently like in Islam.

 

[Remté]

I believe the fact is ll Muslims believe they follow the Quran regardless of what you assert. So fr in the this thread this asertion and your description of mistranslations, misinterpretations, and claims of blasphamacy reflect the problems I have cited that Islam is divided to the point of not being relevant in provided a unified consistent guidance for the world, not even considering the inconsistent guidance for women in society.

No. Muslims in general believe they follow God's word which the think is also found in the Hadiths and the Sunnah. Again, this is because you can't find guidance or consistency for yourself from it. What inconsistent guidance for women? The Hadiths again?