Islam is unable to relate to the diverse contemporary cultures

[IndigoChild5559]

Judaism like Islam has an overwhelming tribal cultural identity which separates them from the rest of the world.

I think there is a very big difference.

While Islam is very influenced by Arab culture, it is not a religion limited to the Arab people. An Indonesian who becomes a Muslim doesn't stop being an Indonesian. An American who become a Muslim doesn't become an Arab.

On the other hand, Judaism definitely is a tribal religion and will remain so -- it's why we feel no need to convert others. If someone does voluntarily convert, they actually are "adopted" into the People of Israel. They become Jews. Not just religiously. They are given new names to indicate that their father is Abraham and their mother is Sarah. There is no such thing as a Jew who is not a member of the Tribe.

 

[shunyadragon]

I think there is a very big difference.

While Islam is very influenced by Arab culture, it is not a religion limited to the Arab people. An Indonesian who becomes a Muslim doesn't stop being an Indonesian. An American who become a Muslim doesn't become an Arab.

True, Arab is an ethnic identity, but learning the Quran in Arabic to fully understand the Quran is indeed a part of Islam as well as other cultural aspects of Islam. Islam in and of itself is not a culture, but like Judaism it has an overwhelming cultural identity. IF you fully understand Islam you will realize that, of course, those that convert do become Muslims do not become Arab there is indeed a strong tribal identity in Islam and between the divisions of Islam,

On the other hand, Judaism definitely is a tribal religion and will remain so -- it's why we feel no need to convert others. If someone does voluntarily convert, they actually are "adopted" into the People of Israel. They become Jews. Not just religiously. They are given new names to indicate that their father is Abraham and their mother is Sarah. There is no such thing as a Jew who is not a member of the Tribe.

This will remain a self imposed cultural prison of Judaism for the rest of the history of humanity apart from the universal.

 

[Firemorphic]

How do you think they are different?

I can't sum the full extent in a mere paragraph but essentially:

The nature of God is far more philosophical and mystical within Shi'ism, our Hadiths also emphasize the mystical and profound state of all things.
The Qur'an is seen as the logos.
The Twelve Imams, starting with the Ahlbayt (family of the prophet), with Ali (the son-in-law of Muhammad), are seen as carriers of the gnosis (and interpretation) of the Qur'an.

In Sunnism, the father-in-law of Muhammad (through marriage to Aisha) becomes the propagator of the Sunni religion. After Ashura, Ali becomes considered the "fourth caliphate" of Sunnism but the religion rests within the bounds of the empire of emerging militant Sunnism.
The nature of God is considered far less philosophical and there is a deliberate cynicism towards mysticism within orthodox Sunnism. Their religion is primarily concerned with their Sunnah of the Prophet, who they think they have to live like (not in an extreme sense though).

 

[Firemorphic]

Is there a division of Islam that believes in a prophet after Muhammad?

Yes, Ahamadi's do, Alevi's kind of do.
Baha'ism is founded on the believe that the 19th century mystic Siyyid Shírází (the Bab) was a prophet (when he wasn't) and that Mírzá Núrí was the prophet to fulfill many religions from other religions besides just Islam. They're a more extreme case and the closest to being "successful" at it.

Other sects within Shi'ism (like the Ismailis and the Bayani's) have varying beliefs over the Imams (Ismaili's believe there are over 40 of them, Bayani's believe that the Bab is the Gate of knowledge before the Imam Mahdi still yet to come) but still hold firm to the finality of Muhammad's prophethood as the seal of all original revelations.

 

[Firemorphic]

agree that the Quran is the sacred text of Islam, but apparently not all like @Remté agree.

​

You have described a significant part of my argument where Islam fails to provide unified relevant guidance to a more universal context of the contemporary world

Diversity is a good thing, isn't it?

Actually, the Qur'an is very clear as far as sects go - it is against division. To understand how to interpret this, requires a meticulous study of the evolution of Islam starting before the prophet's death. Things aren't how Sunnis sell it.

i never considered the Shia Hadith a problem as @Remté asserts. I believe that the Hadiths, Sunnah and the various Sharia law systems if applicable were for an age of the past that no longer has context nor relevance in today's world. Actually I am a bit indifferent here

It's hard to converse here when I know exactly the Baha'i view on it.
But, at the least, you do recognise that without Shia Hadith and Shi'ism itself, that Baha'ism wouldn't exist. If Islam (in the wider scope) was majority Quran-only, there would be no Baha'ism.

God's laws aren't fads btw. Nor are they invitations to be robotic slaves either.

I find similar problems with the ancient context of Judaism and Christianity as not relevant to the context of the contemporary world.

Why do you consider this so important?
Hey, I live and breath within the contemporary world, yet I'm a devout Muslim.

I realize the objections, but I consider it overwhelmingly obvious that Judaism, Christianity and Islam have a strong cultural context that does not reflect the unified universal that is relevant today.

I'm noting.

The fact that Judaism and Islam, and wars within Islam, have been involved in a tribal war for thousands of years, virtually negates Islam to become a universal healing force in Islam

That's utterly absurd to say, sorry, but it is.

This is true, and a real problem for Islam. I see a not so subtle objection to the Baha'i Faith. The problem is what is the alternative to the failure of not only Islam, but also Judaism and Christianity to provide uniersal guidance to the people of the world?

What does that have to do with my text you quoted?


And btw, Your phrase "universal guidance" gives me the irks big time but you wouldn't see why.

I believe in God, therefore I choose the Baha'i Faith

I can't make sense of your line of reasoning but sure, whatever.

but the humanist alternative of belief systems like the Universalist Unitarians is a very relevant alternative lacking the burdens of ancient scripture and religious belief that divide humanity sometimes violently like in Islam.

I've already commented on the 'ole UU's before but you honestly see them as a "relevant alternative"?

"divide humanity", how you you draw the line between what is and what isn't? and how do you decide what division is positive and what is negative?

Btw, violence is not religion-exclusive and any sane person following the Qur'an is going to be fairly angered by the idea of people going around and harming (or killing) people unprovoked.

 

[Firemorphic]

I think there is a very big difference.

While Islam is very influenced by Arab culture, it is not a religion limited to the Arab people.

The extent of influence is so, so, so minor. Arabic itself (which many Muslims don't even learn!! ) is the only major aspect.
Ethnicity, dress and surrounding culture is guaranteed to be completely different between Muslims in different countries. The thing that ideally unites all of these very different people, is love of the Ultimate Reality (known by some as "God" or "Allah"), belief in the Qur'an and veneration for the Prophet Muhammad.

(however, between our sects you'll see a large variety of ideas and ideologies)

 

[shunyadragon]

Diversity is a good thing, isn't it?

Diversity is not the problem It is the adversarial opposition, conflict and violence as in the persecution of the Baha'is and other minorities in Iran and other Islamic countries.

Actually, the Qur'an is very clear as far as sects go - it is against division. To understand how to interpret this, requires a meticulous study of the evolution of Islam starting before the prophet's death. Things aren't how Sunnis sell it.

In your view the conclusion of the meticulous study of the evolution of Islam would be your view, Of course things are not as the Sunnis see it. The meticulous study of the history of Islam would of course justify their belief.

Being against the division of Islam does not negate the facts of history that Islam is contentiously and violently divided.

It's hard to converse here when I know exactly the Baha'i view on it.
But, at the least, you do recognise that without Shia Hadith and Shi'ism itself, that Baha'ism wouldn't exist. If Islam (in the wider scope) was majority Quran-only, there would be no Baha'ism.

Odd assumption. I do not recognize the necessary importance of the Shia Hadith and Shi'ism in and of itself. God's will and destiny are beyond this after the fact of a personal opinion critique of history.

God's laws aren't fads btw. Nor are they invitations to be robotic slaves either.

Of course not. I take them very seriously. The Laws have changed and evolved for the betterment of humanity particularly concerning the role of women in society, and slavery

Why do you consider this so important?
Hey, I live and breath within the contemporary world, yet I'm a devout Muslim.

Egocentric view of the importance of the self. You are not a Baha'i woman trying to survive in Iran.

I'm noting.

Incoherent response. Possible reflects the above.

That's utterly absurd to say, sorry, but it is.

Historically very accurate. The conflicts between Hebrews and Arabs, and the tribes of the Islamic world can be traced to tribal divisions. I will add more to document the tribal nature of the conflicts between Islam and Judaism, and the conflict between Shi'ism and Sunni.

What does that have to do with my text you quoted?

And btw, Your phrase "universal guidance" gives me the irks big time but you wouldn't see why.

It gives ALL the irks who egocentrically believe their way is the only way even in the divisions of their own religion. particularly the contentious conflict between the Shi'ism and Sunni Islam.

I can't make sense of your line of reasoning but sure, whatever.

If I did not believe in God I would be a follower of the UU. I believe in God, and the only option I have found even remotely viable is the Baha'i Faith.

I've already commented on the 'ole UU's before but you honestly see them as a "relevant alternative"?

Yes, your comments re one sided and fortunate and lack understanding of those that believe differently. Yes I honestly see them as an option over the world of the the ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Your comments reflect your own egocentric view in opposition to those who believe differently. Mine are more from the perspective and relevance of the contemporary world and without the conflicts and history of violence against those that believe differently, Along with the lack of judgmental superior view of those that believe differently.

The UU are not involved in the conflicts and violence of the worlds of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and has a healthy attitude toward the diversity of beliefs in the world.

"divide humanity", how you you draw the line between what is and what isn't? and how do you decide what division is positive and what is negative?

I do not draw the lines nor divisions, and the ancient religions and their differences draw the lines, and often in the absolute sense. The believers in the UU do not draw these lines either.

Btw, violence is not religion-exclusive and any sane person following the Qur'an is going to be fairly angered by the idea of people going around and harming (or killing) people unprovoked.

The Quran is not specific and clear as whether one can wage war in the name of religion. The Baha'i spiritual laws are clear and specific concerning forbidding war in the name of religion.

Angered?!?!?! Then why the violence between Shi'ism and Sunni, and persecution of the minorities in the Islamic world? The Baha'is and minorities do not provoke anyone.

 

[Remté]

The Quran is not specific and clear as whether one can wage war in the name of religion.

It just about couldn't be any clearer.

 

[shunyadragon]

It just about couldn't be any clearer.

Unfortunately many many Muslims disagree with you.in history. It actually shouldn't persecute minority religions like the Baha'i Faith, but hey do.

Where in the Quran does it absolutely forebide waging war in the name of religion?

 

[Firemorphic]

In your view the conclusion of the meticulous study of the evolution of Islam would be your view, Of course things are not as the Sunnis see it. The meticulous study of the history of Islam would of course justify their belief.

I'm sure it would appear that way to anyone that hasn't studied the history, critically.

Odd assumption. I do not recognize the necessary importance of the Shia Hadith and Shi'ism in and of itself. God's will and destiny are beyond this after the fact of a personal opinion critique of history.

Not an odd assumption at all, the Mahdi is not in the Qur'an, it's in Hadith. Baha'u'lly takes claim to things that require siding with Shi'ism to have anything to make a claim about in the first place!.
Keeping in mind that Baha'ism came out of a sect that came out of a separate movement, making Baha'ism "the prophecy of the prophets prophecy part three"
Without Shi'ism, you would not exist. You've got to give a friendly nod the the Shaykhi's and the Bayani's.

You are not a Baha'i woman trying to survive in Iran.

Neither are you, I presume.

Incoherent response. Possible reflects the above.

Try to reply properly dude. You obviously measure your religion by how 'in' it is, don't give me lies. You'll go rushing to something else that gives you an ego boost the second you find something even more irrational than Baha'ism.

Historically very accurate. The conflicts between Hebrews and Arabs, and the tribes of the Islamic world can be traced to tribal divisions. I will add more to document the tribal nature of the conflicts between Islam and Judaism, and the conflict between Shi'ism and Sunni.

Your conclusion is?

It gives ALL the irks who egocentrically believe their way is the only way even in the divisions of their own religion. particularly the contentious conflict between the Shi'ism and Sunni Islam.

No, it's just that I know what the Baha'i administration is and I find it all the more pathetic that you get hard from it. Good for you I guess but it's not so appealing under the bonnet.

Yes, your comments re one sided and fortunate and lack understanding of those that believe differently. Yes I honestly see them as an option over the world of the the ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Oh really now? so you're now the one going around telling people who knows what who knows?
I have more knowledge of all the religions that your religion takes claim to than you likely do, not to mention many other religions that Mizra Nuri obviously didn't have exposure to, too much of a shame that he didn't include other religions in his lineage....I wonder why

Your comments reflect your own egocentric view in opposition to those who believe differently. Mine are more from the perspective and relevance of the contemporary world and without the conflicts and history of violence against those that believe differently, Along with the lack of judgmental superior view of those that believe differently.

Not at all but you project a lot of ****, as demonstrable by the quoted post.

As for the UU, you are confusing obvious bull**** with the idea of acceptance and tolerance, the two aren't synonymous with a specific secular "church" such as the UU.

I do not draw the lines nor divisions, and the ancient religions and their differences draw the lines, and often in the absolute sense. The believers in the UU do not draw these lines either.

Should I clap?

Just remember, I did make a comment about the Qur'an stance on this before, which you conveniently ignored.

The Quran is not specific and clear as whether one can wage war in the name of religion.

No, it is morally opposed to the shedding of innocent blood.
It is not however, opposed to self-defense. After all, if your life is being threatened, are you going to stick up for yourself? or just let someone kill you?

Angered?!?!?! Then why the violence between Shi'ism and Sunni, and persecution of the minorities in the Islamic world? The Baha'is and minorities do not provoke anyone.

Sunnis have been killing Shias for centuries, brutally murdering us. Do you think we don't know what it's like?
Their fascism historically has tried to **** on the prophethood of Muhammad, the family and the Imams, since the ****ing beginning of Islam. Think about that while you enjoy your luxuries.
I know Baha'i's aren't innocent either, Baha'i's have done really evil things. Even the founder Mr Mizra was a deeply evil man.

Stop making this about football teams because this is not what religion is about, it's not about "Islam vs your team". If you honestly see things this way, don't expect me to have any interest in your antagonism. You cheer for the team you want to win and flock for the current trends, regardless of what is right and what is wrong. Stop doing this, if you have any decency.

 

[Remté]

Unfortunately many many Muslims disagree with you.in history. It actually shouldn't persecute minority religions like the Baha'i Faith, but hey do.

The Quran? It couldn't persecute Baha'i Faith as it is so new and Muslims should not according to Quran. If they do they do it of their own accord.

Where in the Quran does it absolutely forebide waging war in the name of religion?

What do you mean by 'in the name of religion'? The Quran gives clear guidance as to when the 'waging of war' is permitted and when it isn't or when it ceases to be permitted.

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." 2:190
"You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers." 2:191
"If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 2:192
"You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors." 2:193
"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." 8:61
"if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." 4:90​

 

[IndigoChild5559]

there is indeed a strong tribal identity in Islam

Please name the tribe.

 

[shunyadragon]

Please name the tribe.

From: Arabian tribes that interacted with Muhammad - Wikipedia

"The most prominent of such Arabian tribes were Quraish which were in turn divided into several sub-clans. The Qur'aish sub-clan of Banu Hashim was the clan of Muhammad, while their sister sub-clan, the Banu Abd-Shams became known as his most staunch enemies. After Muhammad, the Muslim nation was ruled exclusively through the Quraish tribe, all the way until the Ottoman Turks came into power.

Other tribes include various ones that were centered on different cities, for example the Banu Thaqif and the Banu Utub.

Notable are the Jewish tribes that had settled in Medina, they would play a prominent part in Muhammad's life, this included the Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir and the Banu Qainuqa, they participated in the Battle of Bu'ath, although they had a truce and an agreement with Muslims not to join the opposing armies, but they broke them."

This article goes into more detail into the origins of Shi'ism along tribal lines.

JOURNAL ARTICLE
The Conversion of Iraq's Tribes to Shiism
Yitzhak Nakash
International Journal of Middle East Studies
Vol. 26, No. 3 (Aug., 1994), pp. 443-463

More to follow . . .

Also: The Hebrew scripture describes the tribal conflicts in the evolution of Judaism. This tribal identity persists today as defining the Jewish religion and their relation to the rest of world that is not Jewish..

 

[shunyadragon]

The Quran? It couldn't persecute Baha'i Faith as it is so new and Muslims should not according to Quran. If they do they do it of their own accord.

The is passing the buck big time. Explain why the Baha'i Faith and other minority religions are persecuted and down right forebiden in almost all Islamic countries.

I have brought up this problem before and you side step it repeatedly. If the teachings of the religion are not reflected in the lives of the believers therefore, the religion is of no value in the contemporary world. You persist like many Muslims presenting an idealistic view of what "Islam" should be, and ignoring the matter of fact world of what "Islam" in reality is in the contemporary world.

You have also side stepped the reality of how women are considered and treated under Islam in the contemporary world.

What do you mean by 'in the name of religion'? The Quran gives clear guidance as to when the 'waging of war' is permitted and when it isn't or when it ceases to be permitted.

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." 2:190
"You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers." 2:191
"If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 2:192
"You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors." 2:193
"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." 8:61
"if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." 4:90​

I know these citations well, and yes "War in the name of religion in this case Islam" can be justified under Islamic scripture in the Quran, and has been over the Millennia.

Under the Baha'i spiritual laws it is forebiden. completely without room for justification. Your citations clearly and specifically justify my position,

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm sure it would appear that way to anyone that hasn't studied the history, critically.

Your view is anyone that does not agree with you does not study history critically as you do, which is very typical of extreme religious views.

I consider the secular historical academics to be best sources to study history critically without a religious agenda.

No, it's just that I know what the Baha'i administration is and I find it all the more pathetic that you get hard from it. Good for you I guess but it's not so appealing under the bonnet.

Not at all but you project a lot of ****, as demonstrable by the quoted post.

As for the UU, you are confusing obvious bull**** with the idea of acceptance and tolerance, the two aren't synonymous with a specific secular "church" such as the UU.

Their fascism historically has tried to **** on the prophethood of Muhammad, the family and the Imams, since the ****ing beginning of Islam. Think about that while you enjoy your luxuries.
I know Baha'i's aren't innocent either, Baha'i's have done really evil things. Even the founder Mr Mizra was a deeply evil man.

Stop making this about football teams because this is not what religion is about, it's not about "Islam vs your team". If you honestly see things this way, don't expect me to have any interest in your antagonism. You cheer for the team you want to win and flock for the current trends, regardless of what is right and what is wrong. Stop doing this, if you have any decency.

The above sums up the problem of ancient world views like Islam relate to those who believe differently, and in reality inspires conflict and violence against those who believe differently throughout the Islamic world.

 

[Firemorphic]

Your view is anyone that does not agree with you does not study history critically as you do, which is very typical of extreme religious views.

What an asinine statement.
I'm encouraging you to be skeptical and actually research things properly because you've demonstrated no workable knowledge of Islamic history and many misguided ideas about even the origins of your own religion.

Btw, religious extremists aren't critical of their own beliefs.

The above sums up the problem of ancient world views like Islam relate to those who believe differently, and in reality inspires conflict and violence against those who believe differently throughout the Islamic world.

I'm not to blame for your lack of reading comprehension and your attempts to pin this on your patronizing view of Islam and your superiority complex. You need to get your ego in check and learn to read things properly.


Some things you missed:

the idea of acceptance and tolerance, the two aren't synonymous with a specific secular "church" such as the UU. (aka brand or product you are selling)

Stop making this about football teams because this is not what religion is about, it's not about "Islam vs your team". If you honestly see things this way, don't expect me to have any interest in your antagonism. You cheer for the team you want to win and flock for the current trends, regardless of what is right and what is wrong. Stop doing this, if you have any decency.

And yes, I am well aware of the Baha'i administrations political corruption. It's quite easy to see. Your Mr Mizra wasn't a saint either, he committed some pretty disgusting atrocities that you plaster over.
I care deeply about human rights and tolerance and do not stand for your evil cult.

 

[shunyadragon]

And yes, I am well aware of the Baha'i administrations political corruption. It's quite easy to see. Your Mr Mizra wasn't a saint either, he committed some pretty disgusting atrocities that you plaster over.
I care deeply about human rights and tolerance and do not stand for your evil cult.

I have nothing to add, based on your dark view of those that believe differently from the perspective of an ancient religion not relevant to the contemporary world.

 

[Firemorphic]

I have nothing to add, based on your dark view of those that believe differently

You keep mindlessly saying this without any evidence that this is the case whatsoever. Keep prancing around in your fantasy land were you are better than everyone else but most people will see you for what you really are. To make it worse, your reply has nothing to do with my comment.

from the perspective of an ancient religion not relevant to the contemporary world.

I'm glad you've got all the answers and that you so openly display your opinion-centered prejudices as some kind of objective fact, without even hiding it. Bravo buddy.

 

[shunyadragon]

You keep mindlessly saying this without any evidence that this is the case whatsoever. Keep prancing around in your fantasy land were you are better than everyone else but most people will see you for what you really are. To make it worse, your reply has nothing to do with my comment.



I'm glad you've got all the answers and that you so openly display your opinion-centered prejudices as some kind of objective fact, without even hiding it. Bravo buddy.

No one has all the answers, but you seem to think you do. Including the omnipotent claim to judge other beliefs as evil.

I have nothing to add, based on your dark view of those that believe differently from the perspective of an ancient religion not relevant to the contemporary world.

 

[Remté]

The is passing the buck big time. Explain why the Baha'i Faith and other minority religions are persecuted and down right forebiden in almost all Islamic countries.

Culture and Hadiths.

I have brought up this problem before and you side step it repeatedly. If the teachings of the religion are not reflected in the lives of the believers therefore, the religion is of no value in the contemporary world. You persist like many Muslims presenting an idealistic view of what "Islam" should be, and ignoring the matter of fact world of what "Islam" in reality is in the contemporary world.

It is reflected in the lives of some believers; quranists for one.

You have also side stepped the reality of how women are considered and treated under Islam in the contemporary world.

I have pointed out to you the source of this problem; the Hadiths and culture.

I know these citations well, and yes "War in the name of religion in this case Islam" can be justified under Islamic scripture in the Quran, and has been over the Millennia.

I asked what do you mean by 'war in the name of religion so we'd get clarily to your argument However, the war spoken of in the Quran is not simply about religion, but about oppression. So why would it not be allowed?