Islam rejects meritocracies?

[Jabar]

If God showed up, gave me some amazing evidence, and let me ask him to show up again later so that I could give him some tests and record his abilities... I would believe. I would believe because I had the chance to collect some true scientific evidence.

This shows your arrogance and ignorance, even if you met God you would still be in question of his existence? And you will just believe because of scientific evidence?

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse Okay, so let me see. If God said to you that you will be burned in hell. What would you say?

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse Okay, so let me see. If God said to you that you will be burned in hell. What would you say?

If he did not provide solid, scientific evidence that he was God, I simply would not believe him.

Look Jabar, I read the Quran. I agree that it says in the Quran (over and over and over again), that Allah is going to torment me in hell forever. The thing is, there is zero evidence.

 

[icehorse]

This shows your arrogance and ignorance, even if you met God you would still be in question of his existence? And you will just believe because of scientific evidence?

Well I could say this to God: "You gave me a brain and I'm using it the best way I know how to. Are you going to punish me forever because I'm using the brain you gave me?"

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse Exactly, you are using the brain he gave you in the wrong way. Allah will tell you that you were given the message. You are giving blame to God, when you yourself did not use your brain in the right way. For example, lets say a just teacher gave you a test and says its a important grade and it will be beneficial. She says you should not cheat. You try to cheat on the test. Is it the teachers fault especially when she had said not to? NO, it is yourself.

 

[Augustus]

Hey Augustus,

My last post to you was an attempt to establish some context. As you noted, it was NOT directly tied to the OP. If your opinion is that there is a problem, then we can hope to get back to the OP. I base a lot of the OP on those polls.

My issue with the OP was that you were making very specific claims on a complex problem with little to no justification. It doesn't really need context, it need very specific evidence. Disregarding the OP, on any issue when people do things like this it is generally meaningless as it is pretty much impossible to make a reasonable case for very specific causes playing a significant role in complex problems.

How do you believe the OP from those polls though re rejecting meritocracy and sense of entitlement?

How do you interpret the phrase 'Sharia Law' btw?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Ah okay, so that's what being a troll means, thank you!

In this context, yes. Usually a troll is someone who deliberately seeks to provoke argument and personal insults on fora.

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse Exactly, you are using the brain he gave you in the wrong way. Allah will tell you that you were given the message. You are giving blame to God, when you yourself did not use your brain in the right way. For example, lets say a just teacher gave you a test and says its a important grade and it will be beneficial. She says you should not cheat. You try to cheat on the test. Is it the teachers fault especially when she had said not to? NO, it is yourself.

Now remember that I don't believe that what the Quran says is true. But for the sake of discussion, in Surah 2 we are told that God made me to be a non-believer. He put a veil over my eyes so that I would not see. Even after I was given the message, I still would not see. And if I claimed to see, he would know I was lying. So in summary, God made me so that he could torment me. If all we have is the words in the book, then the logical conclusion is that your God is NOT merciful. Instead, if we are to believe what the book says, he made me so that he could torment me in hell. yikes! he doesn't sound like a fun guy to hang out with!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Now remember that I don't believe that what the Quran says is true. But for the sake of discussion, in Surah 2 we are told that God made me to be a non-believer. He put a veil over my eyes so that I would not see. Even after I was given the message, I still would not see. And if I claimed to see, he would know I was lying. So in summary, God made me so that he could torment me. If all we have is the words in the book, then the logical conclusion is that your God is NOT merciful. Instead, if we are to believe what the book says, he made me so that he could torment me in hell. yikes! he doesn't sound like a fun guy to hang out with!

That would also ruin the daft notion that us not believing in Islam due to our 'arrogance' since it is Allah causing us to not believe. It also renders him an unjust god since he intends to punish us for the unbelief he inflicts upon us.

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse Firstly, it is not good to just go out saying things that you have not given evidence for. What verse?

 

[Jabar]

Now remember that I don't believe that what the Quran says is true. But for the sake of discussion, in Surah 2 we are told that God made me to be a non-believer. He put a veil over my eyes so that I would not see. Even after I was given the message, I still would not see. And if I claimed to see, he would know I was lying. So in summary, God made me so that he could torment me. If all we have is the words in the book, then the logical conclusion is that your God is NOT merciful. Instead, if we are to believe what the book says, he made me so that he could torment me in hell. yikes! he doesn't sound like a fun guy to hang out with!

What on earth are you saying. When you are born you are Muslim, but throughout time you disbelieve. So, he did not make you a disbeliever. You made yourself a disbeliever and you continued to. Now God made you with a free will as the best creation, you must pass the test once again but if you fail you are not rewarded. It is yourself who causes yourself to torment in hell.

 

[icehorse]

What on earth are you saying. When you are born you are Muslim, but throughout time you disbelieve. So, he did not make you a disbeliever. You made yourself a disbeliever and you continued to. Now God made you with a free will as the best creation, you must pass the test once again but if you fail you are not rewarded. It is yourself who causes yourself to torment in hell.

I disagree with what you just said, and you have no scientific evidence to support these claims.

And what's more, there are about 5.5 billion human beings who would also disagree with what you just said.

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse

I disagree with what you just said, and you have no scientific evidence to support these claims.

And what's more, there are about 5.5 billion human beings who would also disagree with what you just said.

Scientific evidence? Haha. you are funny and very ignorant. The Qur'an contains many scientific evidence that in turn support these claims. You always beat around the bush. And what is more funny is that you say 5.5 billion human beings would disagree just because they are a part of a different belief. That statistic is very false. There are people who still believe in this concept outside of just Islam. That's like saying oh Islam is the fastest growing religion, so it is the truth. You disagree as Allah said disbelievers will always object, they think as though they are superior but truly they are the losers.

What is funny is that you regard science absolute when it contradicts its own self when talking about creationism. Yes science is a great thing however it is also a thing that is regarded as something that is complete when it really is not.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Jabar,

It seems to me that we're not going to make any progress in this discussion. Our views on science and evidence are too different for us to even be able to discuss anything meaningfully.

Good luck to you!

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse As you wish, brother. I have portrayed my message to you. You choose whatever is right for you.

Good luck to yourself!

 

[LuisDantas]

The Qur'aan is indeed Perfect. We are not, therefore we will inevitably struggle to grasp its True Meaning.

Those two statements are anything but established truths.

They are articles of faith that each person must feel free to accept or reject however they please.

If for no other reason, because the lack of such freedom would mean that they are in reality misguided.

Frankly, the very frequency with which I am invited to accept them at face values hints very strongly indeed that they are false.

Nothing that I have ever read of it, about it, or from anyone ever gives me a reason to doubt that assumption. I do not expect that to happen, either. And that is ok.

If anything, I feel sorry that so many people (mostly but not always Muslims) seem to feel so bothered by the simple, unimportant fact that not everyone is meant to be a believer in God nor in the Quran. Such a situation often puts us in a difficult situation, having to choose between lying to people or hurting their feelings.

Moreover, it was revealed in a particular context, a particular time and place, in accordance with the needs of its audience. God did not need to spell everything out because His audience was very familiar with those things and would have straightaway known what He was talking about. We live in a different time and/or place, so some things are not so clear to us. This is why we need the Ahaadeeth to help to guide us. And why we must talk to other people, hear their interpretations and consider them. And of course ultimately, and constantly, ask God for guidance.

If that works for you, that is great. I feel uneasy with the fear that you might expect it to somehow apply for everyone, though.

That is a challenge that Christians, Muslims and Bahais often present me. They tend to mean very well, even while holding entirely unreasonable and abusive expectations. Not everyone can or should be assumed monotheistic or converted into one.

 

[firedragon]

If he did not provide solid, scientific evidence that he was God, I simply would not believe him.

Look Jabar, I read the Quran. I agree that it says in the Quran (over and over and over again), that Allah is going to torment me in hell forever. The thing is, there is zero evidence.

Does the Quran say that he will torment Icehorse in hellfire? I would like to see evidence for that.

 

[firedragon]

Don't be an ***. You know fine well @icehorse meant he'd be tortured in his capacity as an unbeliever.

What verse?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

What verse?

[Quran 10:7-8]
[7] Those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, but are pleased and satisfied with the life of the present, and those who heed not Our signs -
[8] Their abode is the fire, because of the (evil) they earned.

[Quran 3:130-132]
[130] O you who believe. Devour not usury, doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that you may (really) prosper.
[131] Fear the fire, which is prepared for those who reject faith;
[132] And obey Allah and the messenger; that you may obtain mercy.

[Quran 40:6]
[6] Thus was the decree of your Lord proved true against the unbelievers; that truly they are companions of fire!

[Quran 32:20]
[20] As to those who are rebellious and wicked; their abode will be the fire: every time they wish to get away from it, they will be forced in it, and it will be said to them: "Taste you the penalty of the fire, the which you were wont to reject as false."

 

[The_Fisher_King]

In this context, yes. Usually a troll is someone who deliberately seeks to provoke argument and personal insults on fora.

Thank you for the further clarification. I have not spent very much time on these online fora, so these terms are new to me.