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Islam vs western values

Orbit

Orbit

I'm a planet
Pro Gamer said:
developed countries still have death sentences and what's barbaric about hanging a murderer? do you want him to walk free after 20 years or so? you have spent time in the middle east so you might have seen that their life in terms of happiness is better than those westerns so how do you think they live a better life without "essential western moralities" such as liberalism,feminism etc? aren't you guys supposed to be the happiest and most moral people on earth? why doesn't your ideas work practically? people will behave soft towards you in real life regardless of what laws they believe should be applied in the country
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I think you'll find that life goes on no matter where you live.
 
Valjean

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Pro Gamer said:
developed countries still have death sentences and what's barbaric about hanging a murderer? do you want him to walk free after 20 years or so? you have spent time in the middle east so you might have seen that their life in terms of happiness is better than those westerns so how do you think they live a better life without "essential western moralities" such as liberalism,feminism etc? aren't you guys supposed to be the happiest and most moral people on earth? why doesn't your ideas work practically? people will behave soft towards you in real life regardless of what laws they believe should be applied in the country
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How about social mobility, prosperity, and freedom of conscience? Islam represses these. Everyone has a place and is expected to know it -- and stay in it. Education and critical thinking is repressed. Exposure to non-Muslim ideas and inconvenient facts is repressed. You advocate a society of faithful, thought-free, automatons, with neither the desire or ability to expand their knowledge, understanding, or social position. Such people are not happy. In fact, the most happy and moral societies are the least religious societies.

Liberalism? Feminism? Why do you hate liberty? Why do you believe women are incompetent and eternal children? Islam, as you conceive it, produces misery, ignorance and stagnation.
 
Ella S.

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I don't think it makes sense to compare "Western values" with "Islam" as if these are two very specific, mutually contradictory monoliths.

There is a wide variety of thought in Islamic moral philosophy and a great diversity of positions in Western moral philosophy. In fact, some Western moral philosophers are Muslim, so the two are not necessarily in contradiction.

There are plenty of ancient Western moral philosophies that predate Islam that are still around today, like Epicureanism and Aristotleanism. So I'm not sure where you get the impression that Islam doesn't change while Western values do. I think you have to cherry-pick a specific strain of Islamic philosophy and intentionally omit a great deal of Western philosophy to make that claim.
 
MikeDwight

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Under Ottoman rule, Athens was denuded of any importance and its population severely declined, leaving it as a "small country town" (Franz Babinger).the temple of Athena Nike was dismantled by the Ottomans to fortify the Parthenon. A shot fired during the bombardment of the Acropolis caused a powder magazine in the Parthenon to explode (26 September), and the building was severely damaged, giving it largely the appearance it has today.English visitors during the 1760s report a population of around 10,000 inhabitants, around four-fifths of which were Christians.

The leading statesman of the mid-fifth century BC was Pericles, who used the tribute paid by the members of the Delian League to build the Parthenon and other great monuments of classical Athens. The city became, in Pericles's words, "the school of Hellas [Greece]."The period from the end of the Persian Wars to the Macedonian conquest marked the zenith of Athens as a center of literature, philosophy, and the arts.

 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
Valjean said:
But the Bible condones slavery, and killing mothers and fathers and taking virgin girls as sex slaves. You could beat your slave as long as you didn't injure his eyes or teeth, and if he died a couple days later, that was perfectly OK.
This doesn't sound very egalitarian to me.
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Doesn't the Bible also "condone" beating anyone else the same way? Or is there a scripture that tells, don't beat people? Yes, I think there is, the love your neighbor as yourself. I think no one who obeys that, beats people (slaves are people also), except maybe in self-defense. That same rule also means, nobody would keep anyone as slave against the persons will.
Valjean said:
In fact, morality, as depicted in the Bible, is atrocious
Was the slaughter of the Midianites moral or justified? How about slaughtering the Amalachites or the prophets of Baal?
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I think God has right to kill anyone, because He has given life. But, I believe He does so only in the case if people are evil and unrighteous. I can accept it, because I think it is not good, if evil continues forever. Do you think evil should be endless?
Valjean said:
Wasn't Abraham was perfectly willing to kill his son?
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He knew his son could not die, because God had made promises for him that would not be fulfilled, if his son would die.
Valjean said:
Should someone who breaks the Sabbath be put to death? Yes, according to the Bible.
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I don't think that is true. Or can you show a rule from the Bible that says, all Shabbat breakers should be killed?
Valjean said:
How about someone who takes the lord's name in vain, blasphemes or criticizes the religion? Again, death, by stoning..
What if you fail to kill a blasphemous friend? Then you must be put to death -- along with your friend.
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Please show the scriptures that you are referring to?
Valjean said:
Adultry? Death!
What of a woman who's not a virgin on her wedding day? She must be stoned to death on her father's doorstep.

This is Biblical morality. I think we could do better if we just forgot the whole book and relied on compassion and common sense.
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I think Biblical morality is actually based on the question, is person righteous or not. If not, then that person doesn't live forever. And I think that is good. If unrighteous people would live forever, they would make life eternal suffering for all.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

Evil actions like adultery can be signs that person is not righteous. And if person is not righteous, he deserves death.

However, all people don't have the right to be judges. And for those who were judges, appointed by God, there was also these rules:

So says Jehovah of hosts, saying, Judge true judgment, and practice kindness and pity, each man with his brother.
Zac. 7:9
And I commanded your judges at that time, saying, Hear between your brothers; and judge with righteousness between a man and his brother, and his alien. You shall not respect persons in judgment; you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid because of the face of a man, for the judgment is God's; and the thing too hard for you, you shall bring near to me, and I shall hear it.
Deu. 1:16-17
You shall not utter a false report; You shall not put your hand with the wicked, to become a violent witness. You shall not run after many to gain evil things. And you shall not testify as to a lawsuit, to turn aside after many in order to pervert justice . And you shall not favor the lowly in his lawsuit.
Ex. 23:1-3
At the mouth of two witnesses or three witnesses shall he that is to die be put to death. He shall not be put to death at the mouth of one witness.
Deu. 17:6

So, person can deserve death for being evil, but, lawful Judges should be better than what atheists are. And I think Biblical morality is much better than atheistic "compassion" and "common sense", because it is against evilness and doesn't accept and encourage to do bad things.
 
Pro Gamer

Pro Gamer

Member
exchemist said:
As you will have seen from the map, most developed countries no longer put criminals to death. It is thought barbaric, risks irreversible miscarriages of justice and is not particularly effective as a deterrent.

You are not making a very persuasive case for the intrinsic superiority of your idea of islamic values. Are you actually here to persuade us? Or do you just want to make a series of assertions and then disappear before anyone can challenge you to justify them? I've spent time in the Middle East and I'm very willing to admit that there are some attractive aspects to islam, in the gentle, thoughtful form in which it was represented by many muslims - of both sexes - I met. But you seem to come from a different, harsh and unappealing tradition.
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www.statista.com

U.S. capital punishment - executions per year 2023 | Statista

In 2023, 24 death row inmates were executed in the United States.
www.statista.com www.statista.com
 
sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Pro Gamer said:
developed countries still have death sentences and what's barbaric about hanging a murderer? do you want him to walk free after 20 years or so? you have spent time in the middle east so you might have seen that their life in terms of happiness is better than those westerns so how do you think they live a better life without "essential western moralities" such as liberalism,feminism etc? aren't you guys supposed to be the happiest and most moral people on earth? why doesn't your ideas work practically? people will behave soft towards you in real life regardless of what laws they believe should be applied in the country
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The Western World is the happiest in the world. Please don't let your biases cloud the actual reality of the matter. Middle East, South Asian and African nations are the unhappiest people in the world.
1689154379771.png


World Happiness Report Data Dashboard
 
sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
MikeDwight

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Those riots didn't achieve anything, and France will remain a beacon of secularism.
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Read between the lines.

He's saying that his muslim bretheren's contribution to france (which is his idea of "taking over") is turning to riotting, vandalism, civil unrest and targetting the innocent.

And somehow, such is "superior" to western morals and values.
 
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