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Islam: What the West needs to know

waitasec

Veteran Member
I really don't know. Can you help me to know what i should do about it please?

i couldn't even begin to start because it is not my problem...
you adhere to the islamic way of thinking, ultimately abiding to religious dogma, so go ahead and try to figure it out within the small confines of religious thinking...
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
i couldn't even begin to start because it is not my problem...
you adhere to the islamic way of thinking, ultimately abiding to religious dogma, so go ahead and try to figure it out within the small confines of religious thinking...

If it's not your problem then why are you discussing this with me?
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
It quotes several passages from the Koran and Hadith noting quite a violent undertone, while also mentioning some of the more peaceful passages originating from the earliest days of Islam.

I think we all see the world as we are. Islam isn't violent to my mind - quite the opposite.
If a person or society wants to be afraid they will find a reason to be so.
Me, I'm afraid of idiot, war-crazy politicians.
 

Chisti

Active Member
I think we all see the world as we are. Islam isn't violent to my mind - quite the opposite.
If a person or society wants to be afraid they will find a reason to be so.
Me, I'm afraid of idiot, war-crazy politicians.

And I am afraid of soldiers who obey them like sheep.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If it's not your problem then why are you discussing this with me?

well ahhh, if you haven't noticed we're on a debating forum. not a DIR where your statements are to be unchallenged, for one reason...
our discourse led us to this point for another reason
it isn't my problem if you refuse to answer the original question that would shed light on the islamic POV...
that problem is all yours captain...if you want to continue ignoring questions like, what do these passages mean?


"He it is Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may establish it superior over all religions. And All-Sufficient is Allaah as a Witness." [Quran 48:28]

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth to establish it superior over all religions even though the Polytheists hate (it)." [Quran 9:33]

my position has been established if i have already determined what those passages mean, so really, it isn't my problem.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
well ahhh, if you haven't noticed we're on a debating forum. not a DIR where your statements are to be unchallenged, for one reason...
our discourse led us to this point for another reason
it isn't my problem if you refuse to answer the original question that would shed light on the islamic POV...
that problem is all yours captain...if you want to continue ignoring questions like, what do these passages mean?


"He it is Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may establish it superior over all religions. And All-Sufficient is Allaah as a Witness." [Quran 48:28]

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth to establish it superior over all religions even though the Polytheists hate (it)." [Quran 9:33]

my position has been established if i have already determined what those passages mean, so really, it isn't my problem.

IMHO in the above verses the word religion is an incorrect translation of the word deen used in the original text. The correct translation should be way of life. (See The meaning and End of religion by WC Smith). In fact, Arabic does not even have a word which translates to religion in the modern sense.

I do not agree that the shariat as given by Muhammad (pbuh) of today is what is the only Islamic way of life.("And they say, "None but Jews or Christians shall enter Paradise" ; This is their wish. Say : Give your proofs if ye speak the truth. But they who set their face with resignation God-ward, and do what is right, -their reward is with their Lord ; no fear shall come on them, neither shall they grieve" 2: 111-2)

In my view the Quran never asks people to give up their former religions, and in fact never brought about a new religion at all.
("Verily, they who believe (Muslims) and they who follow the Jewish religion, and the Christians, and the Sabaeana - whosoever believeth in God and the last day, and doeth that which is right, shall have their reward with their Lord : fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they grieve.2:62".)

Throughout the Quran the message is always to ask people to discard wrong doings and turn towards God. According to it, if they did so and returned to the original teachings of whatever religion they were following they would have found that it was the same Islam to which Muhammad (pbuh) was calling them too. Din or the real religion of God is devotion to God and righteous living. Whatever be the race or community or country one belonged to, if only he believed in God and did righteous deeds, he was a follower of the Din of God, and salvation was his reward.The Quran condemns the Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhammad's time who had divided themselves into groups on the basis of religion and had devised codes of conduct exclusive to themselves. Such people had relegated the concept of faith and righteousness in the background by devising and splitting up into "religions". This defeated the purpose itself in a sense. For example a person who was good and an ardent devotee of God, if he was not a Christian was thus considered outside the circle of the ones being saved by the Christians, and on the other hand even if he was wicked though professed to be a Christian could still hope for salvation in the end. This groupism was rejected by the Quran which had a message for all humanity: Be good and turn towards God and you will be rewarded.

Finally, note that the above view is not originally mine, but has been developed by Sufi Saints (Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya, Mazhar Jan-i-Janan, Shah Waliullah) and scholars such as Mawlana Abul Kalam Azad. It is known in the literature as wahdat-e-deen (Unity of Religions).

Regards
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
IMHO in the above verses the word religion is an incorrect translation of the word deen used in the original text. The correct translation should be way of life. (See The meaning and End of religion by WC Smith). In fact, Arabic does not even have a word which translates to religion in the modern sense.

thank you for your reply...
so then am i to understand these passages as saying;
"He it is Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the way of life of Truth, that He may establish it superior over all other ways. And All-Sufficient is Allaah as a Witness."?

I do not agree that the shariat as given by Muhammad (pbuh) of today is what is the only Islamic way of life.("And they say, "None but Jews or Christians shall enter Paradise" ; This is their wish. Say : Give your proofs if ye speak the truth. But they who set their face with resignation God-ward, and do what is right, -their reward is with their Lord ; no fear shall come on them, neither shall they grieve" 2: 111-2)

not that it is the only way of life but the superior way of life because it is islamic...


In my view the Quran never asks people to give up their former religions, and in fact never brought about a new religion at all.
("Verily, they who believe (Muslims) and they who follow the Jewish religion, and the Christians, and the Sabaeana - whosoever believeth in God and the last day, and doeth that which is right, shall have their reward with their Lord : fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they grieve.2:62".)

but if that is what the scripture means about the islamic way of life...it is to be established as the superior way... i just want to understand what the word establish is insinuating....
if islam is called to cause a recognition and acceptance of their way of life to being superior, and the truth, isn't that being a bit over bearing and controlling of other people justified by god's supposed endorsement of it?

Throughout the Quran the message is always to ask people to discard wrong doings and turn towards God. According to it, if they did so and returned to the original teachings of whatever religion they were following they would have found that it was the same Islam to which Muhammad (pbuh) was calling them too. Din or the real religion of God is devotion to God and righteous living.
but as it has been proven time and time again, you don't need a belief in god to be able to discard wrong doings...people have and can think for themselves and determine what is right and wrong...without a belief in god. what moral act can a believer in god do that a non believer cannot?

Whatever be the race or community or country one belonged to, if only he believed in God and did righteous deeds, he was a follower of the Din of God, and salvation was his reward.The Quran condemns the Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhammad's time who had divided themselves into groups on the basis of religion and had devised codes of conduct exclusive to themselves.
hence the attempt of establishing the islamic superior way of life....

Such people had relegated the concept of faith and righteousness in the background by devising and splitting up into "religions".

once there is a condition established as superior, or as the original intention, which is classified as gods way, that tends to happen

This defeated the purpose itself in a sense. For example a person who was good and an ardent devotee of God, if he was not a Christian was thus considered outside the circle of the ones being saved by the Christians , and on the other hand even if he was wicked though professed to be a Christian could still hope for salvation in the end. This groupism was rejected by the Quran which had a message for all humanity: Be good and turn towards God and you will be rewarded.
as i said before, you do not need god to be good
the lines that are drawn are lines that divide humanity...
if we continue to abide by the lines drawn we will not find peace, but a perpetual state of division that religion, or an established way of life as the superior way.

in the end, we all want the same things...
don't we?

:rainbow:
 
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