Islam: Why do Muslims think that Jesus was Islamic or Muslim?

[firedragon]

So, their evidence is only in the Quran? That doesn't prove that he was Muslim, does it?

Well. You are gonna get into the realm of traditional Islamic scholarship with this question. They use both the Qur'an as well as a rational argument.

Well. You will obviously resent the Qur'an. So let's leave that aside. Traditional Islamic scholars have simply said that because Jesus submitted to God, he was a Muslim. Because that's what it means.

Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

I _do_ suspect that Islam grows far more due to rasing offspring into it than to any level of conversions, and probably always did.

But do you also reject there are more conversions to Islam than other theologies? It will be great to see some stats.

 

[LuisDantas]

But do you also reject there are more conversions to Islam than other theologies? It will be great to see some stats.

Hey, why do you think you have earned my time? Rest assured, you did not.

 

[firedragon]

Hey, why do you think you have earned my time? Rest assured, you did not.

Great. Thanks. Happy that you value your time. I just asked you since you made a statement only about procreation ignoring other factors and you never quoted your study.

But statistics suggest that out of all theologies studied by PEW research, Islam has a better "out" to "in" ratio as in there are more "in" statistics than "out". So though you are right that Muslims make more children, the theology as a whole whole has more converts "in" than other theologies statistically.

Anyway, since your time is scarce, you don't have to engage anymore.

Cheers.

 

[SLPCCC]

Can you show evidence of this?

I'm sure you are aware that leaving Islam makes one an apostate which means death to that person. So, there are no accurate statistics out there. I remember reading, but I don't remember where exactly of many Muslims playing the role of being Muslim but not really believing because if they came out it would be a death sentence. But here's a video I found. I'm not preaching here. I just found this video interesting. No offense to anyone.

Muslims Are Leaving Islam In Record Numbers

 

[Link]

I'm sure you are aware that leaving Islam makes one an apostate which means death to that person. So, there are no accurate statistics out there.

Okay thanks.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you have anything to say about how apostasy from Islam is treated or how it should be treated, @Link ?

 

[Link]

Do you have anything to say about how apostasy from Islam is treated or how it should be treated, @Link ?

Killing for apostacy is against Quran.

Salam In the 4th Chapter of Quran, we read: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[SLPCCC]

• Well that’s just semantics. You agree with me that father here just means god. The creator of the heavens and earth. So if Jesus submitted his will to the creator or father or god then by the definition of Muslim Jesus is a Muslim.

So, you are saying that it's OK that a Muslim, in this case, Jesus, can call Allah/God "Father" because what he really means is Allah/God??? If so then that means anyone can call Allah/God "Father", correct? In that case, Jesus is not a Muslim because, according to Muslims, anyone who calls Allah "Father" in any sense is committing a grave sin.

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i already told you that Allah words cannot be changed because it is talking about his speech which is eternal. Where as the written words can be changed.

No, not even Allah's written words can be changed! The Quran stresses this and shows that the Torah and the Gospel, which were written since the time of Mohammed, are the same as those we have today.

Quran 7: 157

• Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil . . .

Quran 6: 114, 115

• ˹Say, O Prophet,˺ “Should I seek a judge other than Allah while He is the One Who has revealed for you the Book ˹with the truth˺ perfectly explained?” Those who were given the Scripture know that it has been revealed ˹to you˺ from your Lord in truth. So do not be one of those who doubt. The Word of your Lord has been perfected in truth and justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearing, All- Knowing.

Quran 18:27

• Recite what has been revealed to you from the Book of your Lord. None can change His Words, nor can you find any refuge besides Him.

Quran 5:47

• So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.

Quran 5:68

• Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve.

 

[GoodAttention]

So, you are saying that it's OK that a Muslim, in this case, Jesus, can call God Father because what he really means is God???

Jesus never call God Father.

No, not even the written words of Allah can be changed! the Quran shows that we had the Torah and the Gospel written since the time of Mohammed which is the same ones that we have today.

The Quran doesn't say the Torah/The Law, or the Gospel/Injeel, are the written words of Allah.

Quran 7: 157

• Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil . . .

Parts of the Torah and Gospel describe the coming of Muhammad as a prophet.

Quran 6: 114, 115

• ˹Say, O Prophet,˺ “Should I seek a judge other than Allah while He is the One Who has revealed for you the Book ˹with the truth˺ perfectly explained?” Those who were given the Scripture know that it has been revealed ˹to you˺ from your Lord in truth. So do not be one of those who doubt. The Word of your Lord has been perfected in truth and justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearing, All- Knowing.

Allah's words cannot be changed, and has been revealed to Muhammad.

Quran 18:27

• Recite what has been revealed to you from the Book of your Lord. None can change His Words, nor can you find any refuge besides Him.

The Book is the speech of Allah that has been revealed to Muhammad.

Quran 5:47

• So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.

Let Christians judge by what Allah has revealed in it, meaning the true parts of it, namely there is no God but God.

Quran 5:68

• Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve.

Again, the Torah and Gospel are not the word of Allah in completeness. Only Muhammad can reveal the true word to the Jews and Christians.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

So, you are saying that it's OK that a Muslim, in this case, Jesus, can call Allah/God "Father" because what he really means is Allah/God??? If so then that means anyone can call Allah/God "Father", correct? In that case, Jesus is not a Muslim because, according to Muslims, anyone who calls Allah "Father" in any sense is committing a grave sin.

I am a Muslim so I use the Quran as my criteria. You on the other hand believe the Bible as your source. We can go to in discussion what Jesus truly said or not but that’s has nothing to do with this thread, which I find it weird you are the one that opened this thread.

That’s why I think you don’t really want an answer to your initial question.
It’s very simple , if a Muslim means submitting your will to the creator then Jesus is a Muslim according to my scriptures and your scriptures.

So let me try again. Did Jesus submitted his will to the creator of the heavens and earth according to your scriptures. And please don’t get in to semantics since you believe the father is god?

 

[SLPCCC]

I am a Muslim so I use the Quran as my criteria. You on the other hand believe the Bible as your source. We can go to in discussion what Jesus truly said or not but that’s has nothing to do with this thread, which I find it weird you are the one that opened this thread.

So let me try again. Did Jesus submitted his will to the creator of the heavens and earth according to your scriptures. And please don’t get in to semantics since you believe the father is god?

Perhaps the reason you are not getting it is because you are cherry-picking the parts of the scriptures that support the submission and are not taking the whole content of the verse. It's very simple:

You Muslims are claiming that Jesus was a Muslim, correct? So, the burden of proof lies with you. Where? Where is your evidence? You are taking a part of scripture that shows Jesus submitting and saying this is the proof. Dude that is not proof. I've submitted to my parents. Does that make me a slave of them? A Muslim surrenders/submits to Allah. I'm pointing out to you that there is more to that scripture than just the submitting. There's also Jesus calling Allah/God Father which outweighs the submission. A Father-Child relationship is more than just submitting. Now did the Jews and Christians see themselves as children of God? Did God call them children? That's what should be your sincere question, which I will answer below . . .

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Jesus never call God Father.

. . . Oh really? And what Gospel are you using that proves this? I'll use Allah's words to back up our claims that we have and always had the Gospels even when Mohammed was alive.

Quran 46, 47

• Then in the footsteps of the prophets, we sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing. So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.

Did you see that., "So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. " Let us judge the Gospels! Why are you judging it when Allah clearly says to let us judge it?

So, we judge it to say we are God's children because that is what the scriptures say, and in it, Jesus calls God "Father". Therefore, Jesus is not a Muslim.

Now, finally, if you have a different Tarah and Gospel then let us see it!

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BTW, I appreciate your responses because where I live, there are no Muslims. So, I have no way to sit with a Muslim and have a conversation on such topics. Someone I know read somewhere that Muslims are saying that Jesus was a Muslim, so I figured I would post it here to see if there are good reasons for saying so. Thank you.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Perhaps the reason you are not getting it is because you are cherry-picking the parts of the scriptures that support the submission and are not taking the whole content of the verse. It's very simple:

You Muslims are claiming that Jesus was a Muslim, correct? So, the burden of proof lies with you. Where? Where is your evidence? You are taking a part of scripture that shows Jesus submitting and saying this is the proof. Dude that is not proof. I've submitted to my parents. Does that make me a slave of them? A Muslim surrenders/submits to Allah. I'm pointing out to you that there is more to that scripture than just the submitting. There's also Jesus calling Allah/God Father which outweighs the submission. A Father-Child relationship is more than just submitting. Now did the Jews and Christians see themselves as children of God? Did God call them children? That's what should be your sincere question, which I will answer below . . .

---

. . . Oh really? And what Gospel are you using that proves this? I'll use Allah's words to back up our claims that we have and always had the Gospels even when Mohammed was alive.

Quran 46, 47

• Then in the footsteps of the prophets, we sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing. So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.

Did you see that., "So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. " Let us judge the Gospels! Why are you judging it when Allah clearly says to let us judge it?

So, we judge it to say we are God's children because that is what the scriptures say, and in it, Jesus calls God "Father". Therefore, Jesus is not a Muslim.

Now, finally, if you have a different Tarah and Gospel then let us see it!

---

BTW, I appreciate your responses because where I live, there are no Muslims. So, I have no way to sit with a Muslim and have a conversation on such topics. Someone I know read somewhere that Muslims are saying that Jesus was a Muslim, so I figured I would post it here to see if there are good reasons for saying so. Thank you.

Sorry where did I cherry picked?

And agains you are still missing the point.
Your question of the thread is why do Muslims believe that Jesus is a moslim correct?
Islam position is that he was a prophet and submitted his will to the creator. That’s the whole theme of prophethood in the Quran.

So let me be honest with you, the only thing what you should be bother is the definition. You as a Christian should look into your own scriptures to answer that question. Did Jesus submitted his will to the creator? You don’t need the Quran to answer that question because you don’t accept the Quran to be the word of god.

There is nothing bad about acknowledging that jesus submission towards god is present in your scriptures. And with all respect if you deny that there is no submission of Jesus to god then you are unintentionally rejecting the verses where he does.

 

[GoodAttention]

Quran 46, 47

• Then in the footsteps of the prophets, we sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing. So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.

Did you see that., "So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. " Let us judge the Gospels! Why are you judging it when Allah clearly says to let us judge it?

Allah gave you, the people of the Gospel, to judge what Allah has revealed (the truth) and separate the non-truth from it!

Allah said do not commit idoltry and have no God but God. Instead, the "truly rebellious" judge wrongly what Allah had revealed, proclaiming Allah has a son, and this son is also God! WRONG!

JUDGE IT CORRECTLY!

AND IF YOU CAN'T, THEN LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF HIS PROPHET MUHAMMAD WHO HAS HEARD THE WORD OF ALLAH AND THE TRUTH OF IT!!!


Sorry, I had to bring out my inner angry Arab to get the message across but hope it worked. Go well.

 

[SLPCCC]

Allah gave you, the people of the Gospel, to judge what Allah has revealed (the truth) and separate the non-truth from it!

Allah said do not commit idoltry and have no God but God. Instead, the "truly rebellious" judge wrongly what Allah had revealed, proclaiming Allah has a son, and this son is also God! WRONG!

JUDGE IT CORRECTLY!

AND IF YOU CAN'T, THEN LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF HIS PROPHET MUHAMMAD WHO HAS HEARD THE WORD OF ALLAH AND THE TRUTH OF IT!!!


Sorry, I had to bring out my inner angry Arab to get the message across but hope it worked. Go well.

No worries, LOL. As long as you agree that the Gospels and Torah have been in the hands of Christians since the time of Mohammed, which is the same one we have today because we can trace it back to the 7th, 6th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st centuries. Do your research. Have you not read the Gospels? They all say Jesus was the son of God, which makes him a non-Muslim. Not all who call themselves Christian believe that Jesus was God. The point is that all understand that the Gospels say that Jesus was the son of God. Do you have another Gospel? Share so we can learn. All talk and no proof is a waste of time. Getting angry is a waste of energy. These are not good strategies to win the argument that Jesus was Muslim. It just shows that you have no evidence to bring out.

 

[SLPCCC]

Sorry where did I cherry picked?

And agains you are still missing the point.
Your question of the thread is why do Muslims believe that Jesus is a moslim correct?
Islam position is that he was a prophet and submitted his will to the creator. That’s the whole theme of prophethood in the Quran.

So let me be honest with you, the only thing what you should be bother is the definition. You as a Christian should look into your own scriptures to answer that question. Did Jesus submitted his will to the creator? You don’t need the Quran to answer that question because you don’t accept the Quran to be the word of god.

There is nothing bad about acknowledging that jesus submission towards god is present in your scriptures. And with all respect if you deny that there is no submission of Jesus to god then you are unintentionally rejecting the verses where he does.

I have no problem seeing that Jesus, being a son, summits to the Father. I summited to my parents all the time, and again some who call themselves Christian don't all believe that Jesus was God. But the point is when Muslims use our Gospels to say that this is proof enough for them that Jesus was Muslim, and therefore, we should also accept this reasoning from our Gospels . My answer is no, it is not a good argument because he is calling Allah/God "Father". Again, can Allah be a father in any sense? Not for a Muslim and not for a Christian because to Muslims, all are just slaves to Allah. To Christians and Jews, all are children of God. This makes a big difference.

Let's move on because we are going in circles. What other Proofs do you have for a Christian that Jesus was Muslim?

 

[GoodAttention]

No worries, LOL. As long as you agree that the Gospels and Torah have been in the hands of Christians since the time of Mohammed, which is the same one we have today because we can trace it back to the 7th, 6th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st centuries. Do your research. Have you not read the Gospels?

You should read about the history of the church, in particular about the Ebionites.

Have you read Mark?

They all say Jesus was the son of God, which makes him a non-Muslim.

So you haven't read Mark. He refers to himself repeatedly as the Son of Man.

Not all who call themselves Christian believe that Jesus was God.

Exactly! So where did these Christians get their understanding of Jesus?

The point is that all understand that the Gospels say that Jesus was the son of God.

In Mark, even his disciples don't understand if he is or isn't. This is how he submits to God and shows he is subordinate.

Do you have another Gospel? Share so we can learn. All talk and no proof is a waste of time. Getting angry is a waste of energy. These are not good strategies to win the argument that Jesus was Muslim. It just shows that you have no evidence to bring out.

Read Mark and then read about the Ebionites if you are interested in evidence.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

I have no problem seeing that Jesus, being a son, summits to the Father. I summited to my parents all the time, and again some who call themselves Christian don't all believe that Jesus was God. But the point is when Muslims use our Gospels to say that this is proof enough for them that Jesus was Muslim, and therefore, we should also accept this reasoning from our Gospels . My answer is no, it is not a good argument because he is calling Allah/God "Father". Again, can Allah be a father in any sense? Not for a Muslim and not for a Christian because to Muslims, all are just slaves to Allah. To Christians and Jews, all are children of God. This makes a big difference.

Let's move on because we are going in circles. What other Proofs do you have for a Christian that Jesus was Muslim?

Yeah indeed we are going in to circles since you are trying to find proof from the Quran that Jesus is a Muslim. I don’t use the gospels to prove Jesus is a Muslim. I do that with the Quran and the Hadith. But you seem to have problem looking in to your own scripture to acknowledge that Jesus did submit to the creator. I mean most Christian’s would say Jesus indeed worshippped and submitted to god. It’s like you are denying that the father is god, are you? Is the father the god of the Old Testament? Is the father the creator of the heavens and earth?

 

[SLPCCC]

You should read about the history of the church, in particular about the Ebionites.

Read Mark and then read about the Ebionites if you are interested in evidence.

Yes, I know the history of the Church well, the bad and the good. I take all four Gospels as a whole, not in parts, and I'm aware of all the heretics; some still exist today but under different names because under their previous names, they lost the debates back then and got kicked out.

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Yeah indeed we are going in to circles since you are trying to find proof from the Quran that Jesus is a Muslim. I don’t use the gospels to prove Jesus is a Muslim. I do that with the Quran and the Hadith. But you seem to have problem looking in to your own scripture to acknowledge that Jesus did submit to the creator. I mean most Christian’s would say Jesus indeed worshippped and submitted to god. It’s like you are denying that the father is god, are you? Is the father the god of the Old Testament? Is the father the creator of the heavens and earth?

I don't, but this guy in this video does. He says he's an atheist, and so can be neutral. I think he has good arguments on the topic we are on, so I'll post it here if it's OK.

JESUS WAS A MUSLIM! - Debunked​

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Yes, I know the history of the Church well, the bad and the good. I take all four Gospels as a whole, not in parts, and I'm aware of all the heretics; some still exist today but under different names because under their previous names, they lost the debates back then and got kicked out.

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I don't, but this guy in this video does. He says he's an atheist, and so can be neutral. I think he has good arguments on the topic we are on, so I'll post them here if it's OK.

JESUS WAS A MUSLIM! - Debunked​

Sorry but why don’t you go to Christian’s sources instead of a listening to ex-Muslim who works with a Christian that eats a Qurans for a living?

You are clever enough to come to your own conclusions when reading your scriptures.
The question in this thread is not the first time being asked.

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ's Submission

Philippians 2:5-8Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not c

www.cgg.org