Islamaphobia - Years later, I accept its a real/true phenomena and an industry

[icehorse]

He wrote "more morally good," not perfect. More morally good can and to me did mean treating one's slaves better than others did. It did not mean living up to our understanding today about perfect morality.

You're speaking for another RFer here. I think your inference is wrong, but ideally he should speak for himself, no?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I would say that we have true spiritual masters today as well. So are you in fact comparing the spiritual masters from 2000 years ago to the spiritual masters of today?

In my understanding the masters at that time was higher in wisdom level then those of today, the only really high level masters of today have gone in to hiding to preserve their wisdom, and not be affected by "normal humans of today"
Most of the higher level masters are somewhere in Himalaya deep in those mountains.My own teacher in Falun Gong was in those mountains too before coming forth to teach.

 

[firedragon]

I have indeed read the Quran, have you?

You think someone writes a post without reading it? I dont think you are here for any decent conversation.

Ciao.

 

[icehorse]

In my understanding the masters at that time was higher in wisdom level then those of today, the only really high level masters of today have gone in to hiding to preserve their wisdom, and not be affected by "normal humans of today"
Most of the higher level masters are somewhere in Himalaya deep in those mountains.My own teacher in Falun Gong was in those mountains too before coming forth to teach.

Ha! I think the Dalai Lama would be sad to hear your low opinion of him

 

[firedragon]

And reading one translation is not sufficient. There are parts that are translated very differently even to the verb tense.

Besides that, only Quranists rely solely on the Quran. Most Muslims hold the Hadith as expanding on and clarifying the Quran although there are differences in assumptions of authenticity of various ones.

I understand the intricacies brother. But an honest person must at least read the translation before going and making claims that are found on websites making money off "Islamaphobia Industry".

Through out time various religions and even things like anti communism, anti theism, anti anti theism were all used as a platform to make money. Its true. If you live in a country where the buzz is to hate Jews, anti jewish rhetoric can be turned into an industry. Hitler ran with it. These are sales tactics. Today, you write anything against Islam it will sell.

Only recently I was watching a Joe Rogan interview where he interview an ex muslim who is now becoming famous for his anti islamic campaigns. There are some things he said that are pure, baseless lies. Ill give you an example.

He spoke of an idea in Islam that's called Bidaa. He said Bidaa means innovation. And he said that Bidaa is forbidden in Islam. So innovation is forbidden in Islam. Thus, you can't make a new phone, a new plane, a new coffee or make any new invention because its all forbidden in Islam. You see that's an UTTER LIE. Even in the most backward schools of thought in Islam Bidaa is not technological innovation, it is religious innovation. So now this man is writing a book and people are waiting to buy his book. It will sell. Though he is completely uneducated and is making obviously stupid blunders, he knows he can exploit this industry to make money. There are many like that. Many. Thats the whole point.

Peace.

 

[icehorse]

You think someone writes a post without reading it? I dont think you are here for any decent conversation.

Ciao.

Hmmm. I never implied you were a liar, now tell me again who between us is trying to have a decent conversation?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Ha! I think the Dalai Lama would be sad to hear your low opinion of him

Do I have low opinion about his Holiness Dalai Lama? That is your opinion about me.
Not that it bothers me what you think of me and my understanding of the topic we discuss. All I have said is my own understanding. I have not claimed anything.

 

[icehorse]

I understand the intricacies brother. But an honest person must at least read the translation before going and making claims that are found on websites making money off "Islamaphobia Industry".

Through out time various religions and even things like anti communism, anti theism, anti anti theism were all used as a platform to make money. Its true. If you live in a country where the buzz is to hate Jews, anti jewish rhetoric can be turned into an industry. Hitler ran with it. These are sales tactics. Today, you write anything against Islam it will sell.

Only recently I was watching a Joe Rogan interview where he interview an ex muslim who is now becoming famous for his anti islamic campaigns. There are some things he said that are pure, baseless lies. Ill give you an example.

He spoke of an idea in Islam that's called Bidaa. He said Bidaa means innovation. And he said that Bidaa is forbidden in Islam. So innovation is forbidden in Islam. Thus, you can't make a new phone, a new plane, a new coffee or make any new invention because its all forbidden in Islam. You see that's an UTTER LIE. Even in the most backward schools of thought in Islam Bidaa is not technological innovation, it is religious innovation. So now this man is writing a book and people are waiting to buy his book. It will sell. Though he is completely uneducated and is making obviously stupid blunders, he knows he can exploit this industry to make money. There are many like that. Many. Thats the whole point.

Peace.

Is it fair for us to agree that when we discuss or debate ideas on RF we should do our best to use logic and critical thinking?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Islam is a set of ideas, correct. Muslims are people who believe in Islam, correct?

I think that many of the ideas in Islam are bad. But I do not fear Muslims.

So when you said this:

You were mixing ideas with people. That's what I meant when I said "conflating".

You're talking semantics here. If you fear some of the bad ideas in Islam then you also fear those Muslims who practice the bad ideas in Islam that you fear.

 

[icehorse]

Do I have low opinion about his Holiness Dalai Lama? That is your opinion about me.
Not that it bothers me what you think of me and my understanding of the topic we discuss. All I have said is my own understanding. I have not claimed anything.

In post #82 you said:

In my understanding the masters at that time was higher in wisdom level then those of today, the only really high level masters of today have gone in to hiding to preserve their wisdom, and not be affected by "normal humans of today"

It is completely logical for me to infer from your claim that you hold the Dalai Lama to be lower in wisdom than the old masters that you follow. This is just a simple logical step, correct?

 

[icehorse]

You're talking semantics here. If you fear some of the bad ideas in Islam then you also fear those Muslims who practice the bad ideas in Islam that you fear.

The distinctions here are very important. While your guess about what I fear is reasonable, it's incorrect. In general I find it's a waste of time to make guesses about what others believe.

What's closer to the truth is that I'm sad that many good people have to deal with the cognitive dissonance that Islam adds to their lives. This is an unfair burden.

 

[Spirit of Light]

In post #82 you said:

It is completely logical for me to infer from your claim that you hold the Dalai Lama to be lower in wisdom than the old masters that you follow. This is just a simple logical step, correct?

Do you see the words "in my understanding" it means it is how I understand those higher masters. It was you who started to say what my opinion about Daila Lama is.
Honestly I do not know what wisdom level he is on. I have never spoken to him in person. But I seen him in Oslo Norway one time many years ago.

But there are masters who are on a lot higher level then him. But that does not take away his wisdom or position in Tibetan Buddhism. He know that other monks are on higher levels then him, his own masters is according to him self.

 

[icehorse]

Do you see the words "in my understanding" it means it is how I understand those higher masters. It was you who started to say what my opinion about Daila Lama is.
Honestly I do not know what wisdom level he is on. I have never spoken to him in person. But I seen him in Oslo Norway one time many years ago.

But there are masters who are on a lot higher level then him. But that does not take away his wisdom or position in Tibetan Buddhism. He know that other monks are on higher levels then him, his own masters is according to him self.

Can I use logic when we have discussions on this forum?

If so, then when you say the old masters have a higher wisdom than the current masters, one logical conclusion is that you include the Dalai Lama in the group of "current masters" and therefore your opinion is that his wisdom is lower. You don't have to mention him specifically for this logic to be true. Does that make sense?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Can I use logic when we have discussions on this forum?

If so, then when you say the old masters have a higher wisdom than the current masters, one logical conclusion is that you include the Dalai Lama in the group of "current masters" and therefore your opinion is that his wisdom is lower. You don't have to mention him specifically for this logic to be true. Does that make sense?

Yes the masters who are in public view( also monks) are in my understanding on lower level then 1000-2000 years ago when the focus was a lot more on cultivation of mind and body.
Those masters who are still in Himalaya and cultivate away from the known world is in my understanding on a very high level still. They have not fallen in morality and not interested in fame.

 

[icehorse]

Yes the masters who are in public view( also monks) are in my understanding on lower level then 1000-2000 years ago when the focus was a lot more on cultivation of mind and body.
Those masters who are still in Himalaya and cultivate away from the known world is in my understanding on a very high level still. They have not fallen in morality and not interested in fame.

I believe I understand your opinion, thank you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I believe I understand your opinion, thank you.

It's not an opinion, it is my understanding from reading about this things in the teaching I follow

 

[firedragon]

Hmmm. I never implied you were a liar, now tell me again who between us is trying to have a decent conversation?

Ciao.

 

[firedragon]

There are some people who are eternally hellbent on derailing any thread to discuss their favourite irrelevant topic.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The distinctions here are very important. While your guess about what I fear is reasonable, it's incorrect. In general I find it's a waste of time to make guesses about what others believe.

What's closer to the truth is that I'm sad that many good people have to deal with the cognitive dissonance that Islam adds to their lives. This is an unfair burden.

What you happen to fear is irrelevant. I was responding to the thread which is about phobias or fears and simply stated that those with phobias do not consider their fears to be irrational. You're the one who wanted to talk about conflating Islam with Muslims, which is something I did not do.

 

[firedragon]

What you happen to fear is irrelevant. I was responding to the thread which is about phobias or fears and simply stated that those with phobias do not consider their fears to be irrational. You're the one who wanted to talk about conflating Islam with Muslims, which is something I did not do.

Brother. If you read the DSM 3 by the American psychiatric association one of the diagnostics of a phobia was to identify that the patient in concern does not the fear is irrational but still has that irrational fear. Thats a severe state of reaction. Again, psychology is not my field but I just read up on this matter a lot just for the purpose of understanding this topic. For example a
somatic symptomatology can occur where the state is irrational while the patient knows its irrational. Thats why I did not agree with the word Islamaphobia. But later psychiatrists changed the diagnosis in order to combat phobic reactions. Most of the phobic reactions are the patients try to avoid the situations they fear but in a case like Islamaphobia the patients like to read more about things that affirm their phobia. Do you understand? Thus there is clearly a divide in the diagnosis. These are reasons for me to negate this word Islamaphobia for a long long time. Now if you read up on Obsessive Compulsive Reactions the patient knows his reactions are irrational but he can't help it. Psychasthenia.

Anyway I respect your input and I doubt holding onto this minute point is of any significance.