Kalki is a Hindu concept. I don't think it is very prudent nor very useful to conflate Hindu and Muslim conceptions of divinity. That would only create and maintain destructive confusion, IMO.
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Islamic concept of Mahdi/Jesus/Messiah
- Thread starter duvduv
- Start date
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Please quote verses of Quran to support one's point of view with reasons/arguments given from it.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Humanity is one and the globe has become one-village. The solution of the problems of humanity must be seen in this perspective. I don't believe water-tight classification of the religious concepts on regional, ethnic and racial basis. Almost all religions believe in coming of an end-times reformer. In the present global scenario if there are many reformers in every religion that would be divisive and add to the confusion. The world needs peace. I believe all religions prophesied for one reformer of end-times*, this will also prove that all religions in their origin were truthful and at end-times they will get unified under one peaceful Reformer.
Regards
__________
*[77:12]
And when the Messengers are made to appear at the appointed time —
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 77: Al-Mursalat
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71:
“On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71
And in Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."
In Al-kafi it is narrated that Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said: “... they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him.”
I quite agree with you on that.
I take it that you mean that you do not believe that it is a good thing to keep concepts with distinct origins separated if one can find similarities?
Sometimes that is indeed the case. Other times it is not.
As a rule of thumb, claims about end-of-the-world prophets are not very advisable to begin with. It is even bolder to conflate them with significantly different beliefs that exist in an even more different belief structure - and Hindu structure is very different indeed from the Abrahamic models, to the point that it seems that most Muslims are very much challenged by the attempt to grasp the basics.
In wildly different ways and with an even more varied collection of degrees of emphasis. It is hardly a very significant trait of religions in general.
Sorry, but I can not in good faith encourage such an effort.
It is IMO a serious mistake to put much thought in the idea of an end-times reformer, period.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Since there is no compulsion on other religions or no-religion/s, they are free to remain steadfast on them. Similarly, I/we being an Ahmadiyya peaceful have the same right to be steadfast on my/our concepts which I/we sincerely believe and are positive toward solving the problems of the humanity.
Right, please?
Regards
Reciprocity is a good principle to use for one's behavior, @paarsurrey .
But it is not supreme, and could never be, because we have to consider the consequences of what we do or fail to do.
In this case, raising scripture and hopes for a literal savior figure to a level of importance that cripples our ability to deal with the facts of reality (such as the clear constrast betwen Kalki and the Mahdi) is simply not defensible.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
One has provided only one verse of Quran 17:71 in which I don't see the concept of "Qaim" even mentioned.
The next one gave two quotations from "Al-kafi". Please mention when it was collected/written.
Right, please?
Regards
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Quranic verses can be interpreted in different ways, and can be seen in different ways by different people. As the Quran says, there are verses which are Mutishabihat and unclear.
How could Allah send down a Book, but does not provide correct interpretation? Just as one can believe Allah protected His Quran free from errors, one must also believe that same Allah has also provided and protected its interpretation according to the needs of people. This is why in Quran, Allah says, He has given knowledge of the Book to the Prophet and His family (sons) who are well grounded in knowledge. When you refer to the Hadithes of the Prophet and Imam Sadiq, you will see 17:71 is regarding the Qaim, or Mahdi.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Muhammad's "(sons)"
Sorry, I believe it is a wrong interpretation, and is out of the context verses of 17:71., and has no express clues/roots in Quran.
Quran is very clear that Muhammad left no sons* to succeed him, his sons died in infancy.
Regards
__________
*[33:41]
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 33: Al-Ahzab
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Sons is just a reference to the lineage of Prophet. It is also meant spiritual Sons. See Shia Traditions...for example Sadiq is Son of Muhammad (not literally). It is in Quran too. For example Jesus was Son of His grand father, and grand mother. Mary was a sister to another person in Quran (spiritual sister, not literal). I assumed you are familiar with these concepts since you are a Muslim.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
We are heading towards it, in due course of time,please.
Mahdi/Jesus to come or Jesus' Second Coming are names, among many others, of the End Time Reformer of Religions. The person is the successor/believer of Muhammad in End-Times.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Sorry, Islam is not a racial religion. This very fact has been elaborated in the verse [33:41]* without doubt, please.
Regards
_____________
*[33:41]
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 33: Al-Ahzab
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
InvestigateTruth said: ↑
Sons is just a reference to the lineage of Prophet. It is also meant spiritual Sons. See Shia Traditions...for example Sadiq is Son of Muhammad (not literally). It is in Quran too. For example Jesus was Son of His grand father, and grand mother. Mary was a sister to another person in Quran (spiritual sister, not literal). I assumed you are familiar with these concepts since you are a Muslim.
[24:56]
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, andthey will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: Al-Nur
The successors of Muhammad need not be from the lineage of Muhammad.
Regards
Sons is just a reference to the lineage of Prophet. It is also meant spiritual Sons. See Shia Traditions...for example Sadiq is Son of Muhammad (not literally). It is in Quran too. For example Jesus was Son of His grand father, and grand mother. Mary was a sister to another person in Quran (spiritual sister, not literal). I assumed you are familiar with these concepts since you are a Muslim.
The above points get elaborated when read with the following verse in Quran:
[24:56]
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, andthey will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: Al-Nur
The successors of Muhammad need not be from the lineage of Muhammad.
Regards
j1i
Smiling is charity without giving money
Yes, this was the liar
When Muhammad saw a successful and all the tribes follow him
He think success was only an effort and he wanted to do the same
But it failed
Jesus descends the son of Mary and says the Mahdi Come pray to us (imam) jesus say no, some of them prince of some of God's honor for this nation
so mahdi will be imam for pray
God will descend Jesus son of Mary for the purpose of ending the dispute over the question of the Trinity
For a false belief
It has been said that some will lead Christianity to fire
It is unthinkable that God (Jesus) is created (Growing baby) within the body of a human being (Mary)
Then the mother is a normal person and does not worshipped with God and mary parents >_<
Beliefs are close to paganism
Things are very confusing (really hard)
That is why you find many atheists
I apologize I do not mean hurt feelings
I respect you
this is about mahdi
Mahdi - Wikipedia
Who Is Mahdi According To Quran And Sunni Traditions
Atheism is just a natural result of the existence of theism. It is not to be taken as somehow "wrong" or even mistaken, @j1i
But I guess the Qur'an does teach a very specific form of perception of deity, and does not leave a lot of room for acceptance of atheism.
So, no hurt taken. I like that you decided to speak your mind. It has been my experience that it does not happen too often when Muslims have atheists as interlocutors.
I see that the second link is for a site that does not particularly acknowledge Sunni Islaam as valid, and that it does indeed say that the twelfth Iman is the Mahdi.
Thanks for the clarification.
j1i
Smiling is charity without giving money
thanks
What I understand about the Mahdi
He is a pure figure beloved by the children of Israel and the sons of Ishmael and will be a reason to stop evil and establish justice
But the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) will fighting the Mahdi as a criminal and terrorist
And will try to get rid of it completely like an attempt to extinguish the light
Then Jesus son of Mary will descend to end the farce and purify the earth with the Mahdi
Jesus is the highest house (level) than Mahdi
But Jesus will return as a teacher and not as a prophet
Because the role of prophecy is over
This will be the leadership of Mahdi and his teacher Jesus
Worship will be for God only and everyone will live with joy and pleasure
We believe that Jesus loves Muslims and we also love Jesus
He is of the children of Israel
In Islam Muhammad taught us to love the children of Israel as our brothers
I do not mean the Zionist or criminals
But the righteous are among the children of Israel
I pray daily that God will repair all creatures and be good
good luck
GOD bless you ^_^
No matter how many times people restate what they think are the respective roles of the promised Mahdi and "Jesus" according to Islam (outside of the Quran) it is never clearly stated exactly WHY Jesus is involved with the Mahdi at all when the Mahdi presumably does everything like a single Messianic figure. It seems as though there was some kind of syncretic mixture of a Muslim concept with some kind of dutiful adherence to Jesus between the 4th century and the 8th century but without any actual clear delineation. ;-(
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, the same happened with Jesus, when he appeared, there were other messiah claimants around the same time.
So, how can we make conclusion from the stories of the past Messiah or Messenger?
By the way, both Jesus and Muhammad were rejected by most people of their time, however their religion endured eventually and appeared in different parts of the world.