Islamic concept of Mahdi/Jesus/Messiah

[paarsurrey]

So, if Allah comes and asks everyone to worship Him, will you accept or will you say He has lust of divinity? How do we know if He is really Allah or not? Maybe some people wont be able to recognize Him. There are Hadithes that when Allah comes, people will not recognize Him and tell Him, no we want to wait for Allah.

"There are Hadithes that when Allah comes, people will not recognize Him and tell Him, no we want to wait for Allah"

Hadith is the third source of guidance and was collected 250/300 years after Muhammad. Quran is the first source of guidance of Islam/Quran/Muhammad and all Muslims follow it, whatever the denomination/sect. Quran correct correct Hadith, Gospels, Torah and all other revealed scriptures, old or new.

Please quote the Hadith for its correct understanding in light of verses of Quran.

Regards

 

[j1i]

So, if Allah comes and asks everyone to worship Him, will you accept or will you say He has lust of divinity? How do we know if He is really Allah or not? Maybe some people wont be able to recognize Him. There are Hadithes that when Allah comes, people will not recognize Him and tell Him, no we want to wait for Allah.

If God reveals his cover, he will burn the earth and turn into dust

The sun is not greater than God

Do you want to keep up with the desires of people and their desire to take someone in every godly time to enjoy the play of divinity and practice it as a kind of spiritual training


medicine are now being discovered to prolong life
Bahaa al-Din how long he lived
Why did not the pond bless him and live for at least ten years?
Why he lived and was sick
Imagine that if Bahauddin had dinner, then he would house fly and take food
Believe me, everyone in the world will not be able to return food to the Bahauddin until today, if the world gathered his expertise will not be able to return food

When will we be convinced that God does not materialize and that God is greater than being a tool according to the desires of man
You can do some taming for some animals
But tame God and make him into the body of a creature
These superstitions are not realistic
Heretical superstitions

regards ^_^

 

[paarsurrey]

If God reveals his cover, he will burn the earth and turn into dust

The sun is not greater than God

Do you want to keep up with the desires of people and their desire to take someone in every godly time to enjoy the play of divinity and practice it as a kind of spiritual training


medicine are now being discovered to prolong life
Bahaa al-Din how long he lived
Why did not the pond bless him and live for at least ten years?
Why he lived and was sick
Imagine that if Bahauddin had dinner, then he would house fly and take food
Believe me, everyone in the world will not be able to return food to the Bahauddin until today, if the world gathered his expertise will not be able to return food

When will we be convinced that God does not materialize and that God is greater than being a tool according to the desires of man
You can do some taming for some animals
But tame God and make him into the body of a creature
These superstitions are not realistic
Heretical superstitions

regards ^_^

"Bahauddin" Unquote

Did one mean Bahaullah, the leader of Bahais?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Not really, Allah in Quran says, He revealed the Quran, but afterword it is Him who will explain it, and also He had said, No one knows its interpretation except God and those who are well-grounded in Knowledge.

Please quote the verse of Quran and the verses in the context for correct understanding.
Have you read Quran from cover to cover yourself or just quoting from the Bahaism sources, please?

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please quote the verse of Quran and the verses in the context for correct understanding.
Have you read Quran from cover to cover yourself or just quoting from the Bahaism sources, please?

Regards

Those verses are well-known. Just refer to the Surah of the Resurrection verses 16-19. And also see Quran 3:7.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If God reveals his cover, he will burn the earth and turn into dust

The sun is not greater than God

Do you want to keep up with the desires of people and their desire to take someone in every godly time to enjoy the play of divinity and practice it as a kind of spiritual training


medicine are now being discovered to prolong life
Bahaa al-Din how long he lived
Why did not the pond bless him and live for at least ten years?
Why he lived and was sick
Imagine that if Bahauddin had dinner, then he would house fly and take food
Believe me, everyone in the world will not be able to return food to the Bahauddin until today, if the world gathered his expertise will not be able to return food

When will we be convinced that God does not materialize and that God is greater than being a tool according to the desires of man
You can do some taming for some animals
But tame God and make him into the body of a creature
These superstitions are not realistic
Heretical superstitions

regards ^_^

Well, if you read Quran, it says, God comes to earth, and humanity will meet with Him, though many will not recognize Him. I don't know where you got your idea that if God opens His veil, earth will burn. There is nothing like that in Quran. I dont know who Bahaudin is.

 

[paarsurrey]

Those verses are well-known. Just refer to the Surah of the Resurrection verses 16-19. And also see Quran 3:7.

Does one mean:
Al-Qiyamah (The Resurrection) Surah 16-19: Move not thy tongue with ...

"Move not thy tongue with this revelation,
That thou mayest hasten to preserve it.
Surely upon Us rests its collection and its recital.
So when We recite it, then follow thou its recital.
Then upon Us rests the expounding thereof."

Maulawi Sher' Ali, The Holy Qur'an
The Oriental and Religious Pub. Corp. Ltd., Pakistan.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Well, if you read Quran, it says, God comes to earth, and humanity will meet with Him, though many will not recognize Him. I don't know where you got your idea that if God opens His veil, earth will burn. There is nothing like that in Quran. I dont know who Bahaudin is.

"Quran, it says, God comes to earth, and humanity will meet with Him" Unquote.

Kindly quote the verse, with verses in the context for perusal and correct understanding of it, please.

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Does one mean:
Al-Qiyamah (The Resurrection) Surah 16-19: Move not thy tongue with ...

"Move not thy tongue with this revelation,
That thou mayest hasten to preserve it.
Surely upon Us rests its collection and its recital.
So when We recite it, then follow thou its recital.
Then upon Us rests the expounding thereof."

Maulawi Sher' Ali, The Holy Qur'an
The Oriental and Religious Pub. Corp. Ltd., Pakistan.

Regards

Yes, that's right.
"Move not thy tongue with this revelation,
That thou mayest hasten to preserve it.
Surely upon Us rests its collection and its recital.
So when We recite it, then follow thou its recital.
Then upon Us rests the expounding thereof."

These verses are about revelation of the Quran. God says, He recites the Quran to Muhammad. God did this through Angel Gabriel. Then He asks everyone to follow its recital, meaning read its verses. In another words, He taught its recital. But for explanation and expounding and to make the meaning of verses clear, it is God who would expound it, not the ordinary human beings. In another words, God would also explain the verses. So, how would God expound it? Would He directly expound it to each human? No! He will give the knowledge of the Book to Muhammad and His people of the house, and Those who are called 'well-grounded' in knowledge, so, that They explain the verses to people. This is why, God in Quran did not ask ordinary people to expound it. It is His Own work to expound it. Right? Therefor for Muslims to know the explanation of the verses of Quran, they must learn how Muhammad and His people of house who had the knowledge of the Book to explain them. Right?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I have spoken to Muslims (especially Sunnis) on and offline a number of times to explain what exactly is the role of the expected Mahdi and the role of Jesus.

I believe you'll hardly get anything out of Sunni Muslims regarding this matter. The Mahdi is an Islamic concept but it is the Shia Muslims who view it with great importance and have thousands of narrations in their scripture about the Mahdi. You'll probably be better off asking them.

what exactly is the role of the expected Mahdi and the role of Jesus. I have to say that none of them was actually clear about this at all

The role of the Mahdi (who is considered the 12th Shia Imam) is to cleanse the world from all forms of injustice once and for all, and rule over it justly with peace and harmony. As for the role of Jesus, well that needs slightly more explaining. There is a (Shia) Islamic concept called raj`ah which literally translates to 'return'. According to this belief many groups of people will return to this world during the appearance of the Mahdi. According to Shia traditions, all of Gods Prophets and Messengers from the time of Adam to the Mahdi will return to assist him, this includes Jesus (more explanations below)

Is the Mahdi mentioned in the Quran as the messiah who will create peace in the world?

The Quran does not go into the details of many topics. The name of the Mahdi has not been mentioned in the Quran, but many verses have been interpreted by Shia Imams to refer to him.

If Jesus was simply a prophet like all other prophets, then why would he have a special role?

In Islamic traditions, a special emphasis has been placed on Jesus, including narrations that state the Mahdi will lead the congregational prayers and Jesus will pray behind him. There is a special point here: In congregational prayers, the one who leads the prayer must have a higher rank than the ones who pray behind him. Thus, the narrations are stating that the Mahdi has a higher rank and status than Jesus. So why all the emphasis on Jesus? Well, one thing comes to my mind: The Christians have by far the largest number of adherents in the world. Thus, such an act by Jesus (in the prayer) and Jesus submitting to the Mahdi, would be compelling evidence for Christians that they too have to believe in the Mahdi and assist him. Basically it seems, this action virtually brings a large percentage of the world population on the side of the Mahdi.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

"Quran, it says, God comes to earth, and humanity will meet with Him" Unquote.

Kindly quote the verse, with verses in the context for perusal and correct understanding of it, please.

Regards

The Quran mentions no such concept.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

On the day of resurrection, the earth shall shine with the light of Lord. This is in Quran 39:69. Then also see Surrah of resurrection, following verses:

22. Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty) -
23. Looking towards their Lord;

Right? So, qu ran says the earth shall shine with the light of God and some faces will be looking towards their Lord. Right?

Farther Bahaullah reminded these verses:

Even as He hath revealed: “As for those who believe not in the signs of God, or that they shall ever meet Him, these of My mercy shall despair, and for them doth a grievous chastisement await.”101 Also He saith: “They who bear in mind that they shall attain unto the Presence of their Lord, and that unto Him shall they return.”102 Also in another instance He saith: “They who held it as certain that they must meet God, said, ‘How oft, by God’s will, hath a small host vanquished a numerous host!’”103 In yet another instance He revealeth: “Let him then who hopeth to attain the presence of his Lord work a righteous work.”104 And also He saith: “He ordereth all things. He maketh His signs clear, that ye may have firm faith in attaining the presence of your Lord.”105
This people have repudiated all these verses, that unmistakably testify to the reality of “attainment unto the Divine Presence.”

101. Qur’án 29:23. ↩
102. Qur’án 2:46. ↩
103. Qur’án 2:249. ↩
104. Qur’án 18:111. ↩
105. Qur’án 13:2. ↩

Reference to these things hath also been made in the Qur’án, as witnessed by this verse: “What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds?” Qur’án 2:210. ↩

Its good to see a Baha'i publicly admitting that Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah is God. Every time I mention a quote where Baha'u'llah claims he is God, I am met with great resistance from Baha'is, but at least you seem to have no problem with this concept.

 

[paarsurrey]

On the day of resurrection, the earth shall shine with the light of Lord. This is in Quran 39:69. Then also see Surrah of resurrection, following verses:

22. Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty) -
23. Looking towards their Lord;

Right? So, qu ran says the earth shall shine with the light of God and some faces will be looking towards their Lord. Right?

Farther Bahaullah reminded these verses:

Even as He hath revealed: “As for those who believe not in the signs of God, or that they shall ever meet Him, these of My mercy shall despair, and for them doth a grievous chastisement await.”101 Also He saith: “They who bear in mind that they shall attain unto the Presence of their Lord, and that unto Him shall they return.”102 Also in another instance He saith: “They who held it as certain that they must meet God, said, ‘How oft, by God’s will, hath a small host vanquished a numerous host!’”103 In yet another instance He revealeth: “Let him then who hopeth to attain the presence of his Lord work a righteous work.”104 And also He saith: “He ordereth all things. He maketh His signs clear, that ye may have firm faith in attaining the presence of your Lord.”105
This people have repudiated all these verses, that unmistakably testify to the reality of “attainment unto the Divine Presence.”

101. Qur’án 29:23. ↩
102. Qur’án 2:46. ↩
103. Qur’án 2:249. ↩
104. Qur’án 18:111. ↩
105. Qur’án 13:2. ↩

Reference to these things hath also been made in the Qur’án, as witnessed by this verse: “What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds?” Qur’án 2:210. ↩

Has one studied Quran from cover to cover or one just quotes verses of Quran from some Baha'i website in favor of one's viewpoint, please?
I believe that one has not done so. Right, please?

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Has one studied Quran from cover to cover or one just quotes verses of Quran from some Baha'i website in favor of one's viewpoint, please?
I believe that one has not done so. Right, please?

Regards

I provided you with so many number of verses about meeting with God on earth. It is up to you how you want to view them. So, the Ahmadi Muslims don't believe the will ever meet with God and be in His present? How do you view those verses which I quoted from Quran?

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Has one studied Quran from cover to cover or one just quotes verses of Quran from some Baha'i website in favor of one's viewpoint, please?
I believe that one has not done so. Right, please?

I provided you with so many number of verses about meeting with God on earth. It is up to you how you want to view them. So, the Ahmadi Muslims don't believe the will ever meet with God and be in His present? How do you view those verses which I quoted from Quran?

We will discuss that surely, inshaullah.
First please answer the question I asked, if one may like to, in the post one has responded in this post.
No compulsion though, if it is a private matter.

Regards

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I provided you with so many number of verses about meeting with God on earth.

Not a single one of those verses spoke about meeting with God on earth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Has one studied Quran from cover to cover or one just quotes verses of Quran from some Baha'i website in favor of one's viewpoint, please?
I believe that one has not done so. Right, please?


We will discuss that surely, inshaullah.
First please answer the question I asked, if one may like to, in the post one has responded in this post.
No compulsion though, if it is a private matter.

Regards

I have studied interpretation of Quran from Islamic traditions (Hadithes of Prophet and Shia Imams), as well as from Bahai sources, and to me, the Bahai interpretation is exactly how Muhammad and Shia imams explained the Quran. I did not necessarily study cover to cover, but conceptually almost all of it over a period of 10 years. I hope that answer that question.

 

[danieldemol]

Its good to see a Baha'i publicly admitting that Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah is God. Every time I mention a quote where Baha'u'llah claims he is God, I am met with great resistance from Baha'is, but at least you seem to have no problem with this concept.

Actually it is a Baha'i admitting that particular Baha'i believes Baha'u'llah is God. The real mistake here would be assuming that all Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is God just because one of them does. Baha'u'llah only ever figuratively claimed to be God, not literally in my opinion.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Actually it is a Baha'i admitting that particular Baha'i believes Baha'u'llah is God. The real mistake here would be assuming that all Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is God just because one of them does. Baha'u'llah only ever figuratively claimed to be God, not literally in my opinion.

In my opinion there is no manner where one can claim to be God in a figurative way.

 

[danieldemol]

In my opinion there is no manner where one can claim to be God in a figurative way.

According to my understanding, Baha'is believe the Prophet Muhammed has claimed to be God in a figurative way. You may find this partial quote relayed by Investigate Truth from another thread to be of interest;

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Daysprings of ancient glory are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the light that can never fade. Even as He hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition:
“I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself.”

Underlining and bold have been added by me to the quote to draw your attention to the traditions referenced.

Quote taken from thread Zoroastrianism: Baha'ism: What is meant by a person called "manifestation" of God?

Kind regards