Islamic concept of Mahdi/Jesus/Messiah

[spirit_of_dawn]

According to my understanding, Baha'is believe the Prophet Muhammed has claimed to be God in a figurative way ...

“I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself.”

The only problem with the Quote that you have provided is that it is not part of Islamic scripture. It is a statement used in Sufi/Mystic circles (Baha'u'llah's relationship with these groups is well documented).

 

[danieldemol]

The only problem with the Quote that you have provided is that it is not part of Islamic scripture. It is a statement used in Sufi/Mystic circles (Baha'u'llah relationship with these groups is well documented).

I notice you edited out one of the underlined sayings from your response. Why?

Nonetheless Baha’is believe that the Prophet Muhammad figuratively claimed to be God in the Quran anyway;

'Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!"[1] And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God."[2]'

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)
[1 Qur'án 8:17.]
[2 Qur'án 48:10.]

Kind regards

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I notice you edited out one of the underlined sayings from your response. Why?

Nonetheless Baha’is believe that the Prophet Muhammad figuratively claimed to be God in the Quran anyway;

'Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!"[1] And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God."[2]'

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)
[1 Qur'án 8:17.]
[2 Qur'án 48:10.]

Kind regards

I edited that out because it had nothing to do with your claim about Prophet Muhammad claiming to be God.

The two new verses are also irrelevant because there is nothing in them about:

1- Muhammad claiming to be God.
2- God claiming that Muhammad is God.

If any of these two claims were to be made, you could easily find dozens of explicit statements that convey this meaning. However, there is no such thing in Islamic scripture.

What is literally and figuratively understood by those verses among Muslims is the following and I believe there is no need to twist the meanings to show else-wise:

The first verse refers to a specific event that occurred where Muhammad and Ali took over a tribe all by themselves and conquered it. An act that was like a miracle. God states that the specific act and event were due to his direct intervention. i.e. O Muhammad don't think that shaft (arrow) that you threw was your act, that was my act by which I conquered that tribe.

The second verse simply means this: those that want to plight fealty with Me (God), it suffices for them to plight fealty with you O Muhammad because you are my representative and delegate on earth.

As a friendly advice, please read the scriptures of other faiths independently before trying to understand them through the words of Baha'u'llah. i.e. Independently investigate the truth before biasing the truth with Baha'i beliefs and claims.

 

[paarsurrey]

I notice you edited out one of the underlined sayings from your response. Why?

Nonetheless Baha’is believe that the Prophet Muhammad figuratively claimed to be God in the Quran anyway;

'Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!"[1] And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God."[2]'

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)
[1 Qur'án 8:17.]
[2 Qur'án 48:10.]

Kind regards

Has one read Quran from cover to cover himself, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Actually it is a Baha'i admitting that particular Baha'i believes Baha'u'llah is God. The real mistake here would be assuming that all Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is God just because one of them does. Baha'u'llah only ever figuratively claimed to be God, not literally in my opinion.

Please quote from "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of the Bahais where Baha'ullah has unequivocally denies that Baha'ullah is not God.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Has one read Quran from cover to cover himself, please?

Regards

Paarsurrey. This question has been asked quite a few times of quite a few people.

Thus, does reading a book cover to cover mean that one has knowledge of the book?

Consider the Jews and Christians have read their books cover to cover and some like Muslims have memorised all passages. In doing that they still did no accept Muhammad.

The first people that accepted Christ and Muhammad could no read.

This is Gods warning to us with every message, do not let ones education become a barrier to knowing our One God.

Personally I did read the Quran Cover to Cover, I found it an interesting read. Much like the Old Testament in places. In the end that does not prove I have any knowledge of it at all, in fact I know I do not.

Peace be with you, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please quote from "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of the Bahais where Baha'ullah has unequivocally denies that Baha'ullah is not God.

Regards

Paarsurry - This can not be done as this is the 'Day of God' no Less. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified as God, but this is a Station not the Essence.

This subject is a tricky one as God/Allah is unknowable in Essence, but at the same time it is the Most Great Spirit that comes from God and we know as Gods Messengers.

These Messengers are all we can know of God.

I may start an OP on this subject from what I understand.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

I have studied interpretation of Quran from Islamic traditions (Hadithes of Prophet and Shia Imams), as well as from Bahai sources, and to me, the Bahai interpretation is exactly how Muhammad and Shia imams explained the Quran. I did not necessarily study cover to cover, but conceptually almost all of it over a period of 10 years. I hope that answer that question.

It means one has not read Quran one one's own from cover to cover. The interpretations are the opinion of the interpreter and are no alternative of the original. Quran is readily available online, even a hard copy is available at very low cost almost everywhere in the world, in Arabic original text as well with translations, in many renowned languages of the world.
Till such time one completes one's study, one should quote the verses of Quran with context verses and then prove one's point of view from the context verses.
I have checked the verses which one referenced , the context of the Quran is very clear that one has understood them wrongly.
If one had quoted these verses copying from some Baha'ullah's core book, then Baha'ullah is clearly in error. This will prove that he is not worthy of the titles Bahá'ís ascribe to him.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey. This question has been asked quite a few times of quite a few people.
Thus, does reading a book cover to cover mean that one has knowledge of the book?
Consider the Jews and Christians have read their books cover to cover and some like Muslims have memorised all passages. In doing that they still did no accept Muhammad.
The first people that accepted Christ and Muhammad could no read.
This is Gods warning to us with every message, do not let ones education become a barrier to knowing our One God.
Personally I did read the Quran Cover to Cover, I found it an interesting read. Much like the Old Testament in places. In the end that does not prove I have any knowledge of it at all, in fact I know I do not.
Peace be with you, Regards Tony

The same question I have to ask from my friend @Tony Bristow-Stagg also:
"Has one read Quran from cover to cover?"
Else, for a meaningful debate/discussion the Baha'i friends here are requested to adopt the way suggested by me in my post #88 addressed to our friend @shunyadragon . Right, please?

This is in a spirit of friendship, please don't mind.
The rest points of one's post will be covered by me in some later post/s.

Regards

 

[danieldemol]

Has one read Quran from cover to cover himself, please?

Regards

Yes, it doesn’t change the meaning.

 

[danieldemol]

Please quote from "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of the Bahais where Baha'ullah has unequivocally denies that Baha'ullah is not God.

Regards

Baha’u’llah wrote His major theological treatise - KitabIqan - before He wrote the KitabiAqdas. In it He explains all His doctrines, thus it is needless repetition to repeat them in the Aqdas which is a book of laws, not a theological work.

Nonetheless if Baha’u’llah denies it in writing anywhere it is a denial that can’t be retracted.

Have you read the Kitabiqan?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I grew up in a Christian country, with Christian traditions, practicing the Christian Faith. I became a Baha'i because Baha'u'llah's Teachings are practical and clearly applicable to the modern world. Baha'u'llah also fulfils the prophetic requirements of both the Hebrew and Christian sacred writings.

I have since studied Islam somewhat. However Islam is not what I have been raised with. I have never lived in a Muslim country, and never been a Muslim.

We have two or three Muslims on this thread and we are discussing the Mahdi prophecy. This is excellent. Dear Muslim friends, please explain with reference to the Holy Qur'an why you believe the Baha'i Faith to contradicts Islam. I'm interested to hear your views.

Thank you.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurry - This can not be done as this is the 'Day of God' no Less. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified as God, but this is a Station not the Essence.

This subject is a tricky one as God/Allah is unknowable in Essence, but at the same time it is the Most Great Spirit that comes from God and we know as Gods Messengers.

These Messengers are all we can know of God.

I may start an OP on this subject from what I understand.

Regards Tony

"This can not be done as this is the 'Day of God' no Less. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified as God, but this is a Station not the Essence." Unquote.

Every day is day of G-d, created by Him and sustained by Him. If Bahaullah understood things wrong, it is his misunderstanding,and then he was simply a human beings like it is said "to err is human".

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It means one has not read Quran one one's own from cover to cover. The interpretations are the opinion of the interpreter and are no alternative of the original. Quran is readily available online, even a hard copy is available at very low cost almost everywhere in the world, in Arabic original text as well with translations, in many renowned languages of the world.
Till such time one completes one's study, one should quote the verses of Quran with context verses and then prove one's point of view from the context verses.
I have checked the verses which one referenced , the context of the Quran is very clear that one has understood them wrongly.
If one had quoted these verses copying from some Baha'ullah's core book, then Baha'ullah is clearly in error. This will prove that he is not worthy of the titles Bahá'ís ascribe to him.
Right, please?

Regards

There is no benefit in practising Laws of Quran, after 1000 years. We don't really need to know those Sharia Laws of Quran anymore because as Quran says, there is benefit in them only for 1000 years after revelation of Islam:


“Indeed, those who reverence the Rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts. In them are benefits to an Appointed Time, then their place is to the ancient House” 22:33


Therefore according to 22:33, the Quranic Rites are benefitial until their appointed time, then after that, Religious Laws are Referred to the Ancient House, which according to Recorded Traditions, is in Heaven, and the time of ascension of the Quranic ordinances is in the 32nd Surrah:

“He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.” 32:5

 

[Dawnofhope]

"This can not be done as this is the 'Day of God' no Less. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified as God, but this is a Station not the Essence." Unquote.

Every day is day of G-d, created by Him and sustained by Him. If Bahaullah understood things wrong, it is his misunderstanding,and then he was simply a human beings like it is said "to err is human".

Regards

I think Tony was referring to Islamic eschatology, rather than what day of the week it is.

Islamic eschatology - Wikipedia

 

[paarsurrey]

I grew up in a Christian country, with Christian traditions, practicing the Christian Faith. I became a Baha'i because Baha'u'llah's Teachings are practical and clearly applicable to the modern world. Baha'u'llah also fulfils the prophetic requirements of both the Hebrew and Christian sacred writings.

I have since studied Islam somewhat. However Islam is not what I have been raised with. I have never lived in a Muslim country, and never been a Muslim.

We have two or three Muslims on this thread and we are discussing the Mahdi prophecy. This is excellent. Dear Muslim friends, please explain with reference to the Holy Qur'an why you believe the Baha'i Faith to contradicts Islam. I'm interested to hear your views.

Thank you.

As far as the peaceful approach of Bahaism and good reformation goals of the world, I like them and support them. The human society needs reformation a lot so both could work side by side, no harm in it. Bahaullah as I have observed from the posts of Baha'i friends here, I don't see him telling things in straightforward manner, that is the reason I ask little questions from the Baha'i friend.
I always like to see core book of a religion and compare it with Quran both for "issues/teachings/commandments" and "reasons/wisdom" of them in brief, not from followers . I find
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of Bahaism @ The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library
I will compare it with Quran.
Bahai friends are welcome to answer, if they like and feel comfortable. They need not answer if they are not comfortable, please.
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

As far as the peaceful approach of Bahaism and good reformation goals of the world, I like them and support them. The human society needs reformation a lot so both could work side by side, no harm in it. Bahaullah as I have observed from the posts of Baha'i friends here, I don't see him telling things in straightforward manner, that is the reason I ask little questions from the Baha'i friend.
I always like to see core book of a religion and compare it with Quran both for "issues/teachings/commandments" and "reasons/wisdom" of them in brief, not from followers . I find
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of Bahaism @ The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library
I will compare it with Quran.
Bahai friend are welcome to answer, if they like and feel comfortable. They need not answer if they are not comfortable, please.
Regards

Thank you @paarsurrey

Do study the Kitab-i-Aqdas but it is not completely analagous to the Quran is Islam. The Kitab-i-Aqdas makes up a small portion of Baha'u'llah's revelation as does one Surah from the Qur'an. However it is consided the most important of Baha'u'llah's works.

Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith has said:

Revealed soon after Bahá’u’lláh had been transferred to the house of ‘Údí Khammár (circa 1873), at a time when He was still encompassed by the tribulations that had afflicted Him, through the acts committed by His enemies and the professed adherents of His Faith, this Book, this treasury enshrining the priceless gems of His Revelation, stands out, by virtue of the principles it inculcates, the administrative institutions it ordains and the function with which it invests the appointed Successor of its Author, unique and incomparable among the world’s sacred Scriptures. For, unlike the Old Testament and the Holy Books which preceded it, in which the actual precepts uttered by the Prophet Himself are nonexistent; unlike the Gospels, in which the few sayings attributed to Jesus Christ afford no clear guidance regarding the future administration of the affairs of His Faith; unlike even the Qur’án which, though explicit in the laws and ordinances formulated by the Apostle of God, is silent on the all-important subject of the succession, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, revealed from first to last by the Author of the Dispensation Himself, not only preserves for posterity the basic laws and ordinances on which the fabric of His future World Order must rest, but ordains, in addition to the function of interpretation which it confers upon His Successor, the necessary institutions through which the integrity and unity of His Faith can alone be safeguarded.


In this Charter of the future world civilization its Author—at once the Judge, the Lawgiver, the Unifier and Redeemer of mankind—announces to the kings of the earth the promulgation of the “Most Great Law”; pronounces them to be His vassals; proclaims Himself the “King of Kings”; disclaims any intention of laying hands on their kingdoms; reserves for Himself the right to “seize and possess the hearts of men”; warns the world’s ecclesiastical leaders not to weigh the “Book of God” with such standards as are current amongst them; and affirms that the Book itself is the “Unerring Balance” established amongst men. In it He formally ordains the institution of the “House of Justice,” defines its functions, fixes its revenues, and designates its members as the “Men of Justice,” the “Deputies of God,” the “Trustees of the All-Merciful”; alludes to the future Center of His Covenant, and invests Him with the right of interpreting His holy Writ; anticipates by implication the institution of Guardianship; bears witness to the revolutionizing effect of His World Order; enunciates the doctrine of the “Most Great Infallibility” of the Manifestation of God; asserts this infallibility to be the inherent and exclusive right of the Prophet; and rules out the possibility of the appearance of another Manifestation ere the lapse of at least one thousand years.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[paarsurrey]

I grew up in a Christian country, with Christian traditions, practicing the Christian Faith. I became a Baha'i because Baha'u'llah's Teachings are practical and clearly applicable to the modern world. Baha'u'llah also fulfils the prophetic requirements of both the Hebrew and Christian sacred writings.

I have since studied Islam somewhat. However Islam is not what I have been raised with. I have never lived in a Muslim country, and never been a Muslim.

We have two or three Muslims on this thread and we are discussing the Mahdi prophecy. This is excellent. Dear Muslim friends, please explain with reference to the Holy Qur'an why you believe the Baha'i Faith to contradicts Islam. I'm interested to hear your views.

Thank you.

As far as the peaceful approach of Bahaism and good reformation goals of the world, I like them and support them. The human society needs reformation a lot so both or many reformers could work side by side, no harm in it.

Bahaullah as I have observed from the posts of Baha'i friends here, I don't see him telling things in straightforward manner, that is the reason I ask little questions from the Baha'i friends.

I always like to see core book of a religion and compare it with Quran both for "issues/teachings/commandments" and "reasons/wisdom" of them in brief, not from its followers . I find "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of Bahaism @ The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library
I will compare it with Quran.

Bahai friend are welcome to answer, if they like and feel comfortable. They need not answer if they are not comfortable, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I think Tony was referring to Islamic eschatology, rather than what day of the week it is.

Islamic eschatology - Wikipedia

I have to ask the question.

Has one read Quran from cover to cover,please?

Quran is not a voluminous "narration" it is the size of four gospels bound together.
Baha'ullah needn't have to write many books.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you @paarsurrey

Do study the Kitab-i-Aqdas but it is not completely analagous to the Quran is Islam. The Kitab-i-Aqdas makes up a small portion of Baha'u'llah's revelation as does one Surah from the Qur'an. However it is consided the most important of Baha'u'llah's works.

Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith has said:

Revealed soon after Bahá’u’lláh had been transferred to the house of ‘Údí Khammár (circa 1873), at a time when He was still encompassed by the tribulations that had afflicted Him, through the acts committed by His enemies and the professed adherents of His Faith, this Book, this treasury enshrining the priceless gems of His Revelation, stands out, by virtue of the principles it inculcates, the administrative institutions it ordains and the function with which it invests the appointed Successor of its Author, unique and incomparable among the world’s sacred Scriptures. For, unlike the Old Testament and the Holy Books which preceded it, in which the actual precepts uttered by the Prophet Himself are nonexistent; unlike the Gospels, in which the few sayings attributed to Jesus Christ afford no clear guidance regarding the future administration of the affairs of His Faith; unlike even the Qur’án which, though explicit in the laws and ordinances formulated by the Apostle of God, is silent on the all-important subject of the succession, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, revealed from first to last by the Author of the Dispensation Himself, not only preserves for posterity the basic laws and ordinances on which the fabric of His future World Order must rest, but ordains, in addition to the function of interpretation which it confers upon His Successor, the necessary institutions through which the integrity and unity of His Faith can alone be safeguarded.


In this Charter of the future world civilization its Author—at once the Judge, the Lawgiver, the Unifier and Redeemer of mankind—announces to the kings of the earth the promulgation of the “Most Great Law”; pronounces them to be His vassals; proclaims Himself the “King of Kings”; disclaims any intention of laying hands on their kingdoms; reserves for Himself the right to “seize and possess the hearts of men”; warns the world’s ecclesiastical leaders not to weigh the “Book of God” with such standards as are current amongst them; and affirms that the Book itself is the “Unerring Balance” established amongst men. In it He formally ordains the institution of the “House of Justice,” defines its functions, fixes its revenues, and designates its members as the “Men of Justice,” the “Deputies of God,” the “Trustees of the All-Merciful”; alludes to the future Center of His Covenant, and invests Him with the right of interpreting His holy Writ; anticipates by implication the institution of Guardianship; bears witness to the revolutionizing effect of His World Order; enunciates the doctrine of the “Most Great Infallibility” of the Manifestation of God; asserts this infallibility to be the inherent and exclusive right of the Prophet; and rules out the possibility of the appearance of another Manifestation ere the lapse of at least one thousand years.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

Sorry, I will concentrate on Bahaullah for comparison with Quran not others like Shoghi Effendi or Abdul Baha, unless of course if it is agreed that he falls short of telling things in straightforward manner.

Regards