Islamic Extremism: Do you agree?

[Valjean]

I prefer the Sufi variety of Islamic extremism, myself.

 

[doppelganger]

I prefer the Sufi variety of Islamic extremism, myself.

Me too.

 

[Popeyesays]

the quran can not be literaly translated so to be a true muslim and understand the quran you have to learn arabic , hence my reasoning for the spread of arabic .

Hebrew was not literally translated into Greek. Greek was not literally translated into English. Arabic is not literally translated into English either.

But we have multiple translations from Arabic into English, I have access to SIX. So I can read across the versions to better understand.

Just because you cannot imagine scholarly research does not mean others cannot.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

Hebrew was not literally translated into Greek. Greek was not literally translated into English. Arabic is not literally translated into English either.

But we have multiple translations from Arabic into English, I have access to SIX. So I can read across the versions to better understand.

Just because you cannot imagine scholarly research does not mean others cannot.

Regards,
Scott

scott, if i may call you scott, my scholarly research of islam tells me that if you ask a muslim any true muslim only a Qur'an in arabic is a true Qur'an the Qur'an is miraculous and inimitable they argue that the Qur'anic text can not be reproduced in another language or form. so do not rely on all your translations because they are no use to quote from. But are ok for book ends

 

[Popeyesays]

scott, if i may call you scott, my scholarly research of islam tells me that if you ask a muslim any true muslim only a Qur'an in arabic is a true Qur'an the Qur'an is miraculous and inimitable they argue that the Qur'anic text can not be reproduced in another language or form. so do not rely on all your translations because they are no use to quote from. But are ok for book ends

If you ask a "true" Jew he will tell you much the same. Doesn't make it true. The word of God has to be universally available or it is not the word of God.

THe Baha`i writings were written in two litturgical languages--Farsi and Arabic. Abdu'l Baha was proficient in those languages and Turkic as well. Shoghi Effendi was proficient in all those languages and English and French.

Part of the teachings of the faith is the need for an international auxiliary language, artificial or a language already spoken.

Abdu'l Baha was the appointed Interpreter and freely allowed his own writings to be interpreted into French, or English or whatever. His grasp of other languages was rarely revealed.

The writings of Baha`u'llah, the Bab and Abdu'l Baha have authorized translations. These were performed by selected individuals and there work was certified by Abdu'l Baha or Shoghi Effendi. The translation process is more involved these days, and done mostly by committees and authorized by the Universal House of Justice.


Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

If you ask a "true" Jew he will tell you much the same. Doesn't make it true. The word of God has to be universally available or it is not the word of God.

THe Baha`i writings were written in two litturgical languages--Farsi and Arabic. Abdu'l Baha was proficient in those languages and Turkic as well. Shoghi Effendi was proficient in all those languages and English and French.

Part of the teachings of the faith is the need for an international auxiliary language, artificial or a language already spoken.

Abdu'l Baha was the appointed Interpreter and freely allowed his own writings to be interpreted into French, or English or whatever. His grasp of other languages was rarely revealed.

The writings of Baha`u'llah, the Bab and Abdu'l Baha have authorized translations. These were performed by selected individuals and there work was certified by Abdu'l Baha or Shoghi Effendi. The translation process is more involved these days, and done mostly by committees and authorized by the Universal House of Justice.


Regards,
Scott

i bow to your knowledge of baha'i , but i am only trying to explain the spread of arabic due to its fundamental role in islam and Islam alone .

 

[Popeyesays]

i bow to your knowledge of baha'i , but i am only trying to explain the spread of arabic due to its fundamental role in islam and Islam alone .

Arabic also became the predominant language for the Berbers. That's pretty clearly a popular choice rather than an overlay brought about by conquest. The Berbers were not conquered, but provided the vast numbers of Moors who invaded Europe from the west.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

Arabic also became the predominant language for the Berbers. That's pretty clearly a popular choice rather than an overlay brought about by conquest. The Berbers were not conquered, but provided the vast numbers of Moors who invaded Europe from the west.

Regards,
Scott

a popular choice indeed for the berbers who are muslim, but the berber language still exists. and you are probably refering to the armies of Tariq ibn-Ziyad who was indeed a berber and a muslim and Umayyad general who led the conquest of spain.

by the way are we straying from the OP? i beleive it is relative.

 

[tomspug]

I think what Scott is trying to say is that even though the Arabic version is the "true" version you cannot expect every Muslim to learn Arabic. Probably a majority of conversions came from "altered" translations. The truths within the text do not go away simply by changing the language.

However, the Arabic version should always be authoritative. No Qu'ran should be translated from any version other than the original, and the interpretations of passages should always turn to the Arabic version for authority.

 

[Popeyesays]

I think what Scott is trying to say is that even though the Arabic version is the "true" version you cannot expect every Muslim to learn Arabic. Probably a majority of conversions came from "altered" translations. The truths within the text do not go away simply by changing the language.

However, the Arabic version should always be authoritative. No Qu'ran should be translated from any version other than the original, and the interpretations of passages should always turn to the Arabic version for authority.

Exactly. Half the problems with the King james version of the Old Testament come from the fact that the English translation was done from the Septuagine (Greek) rather than from the Masoretic (Hebrew).

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

I think what Scott is trying to say is that even though the Arabic version is the "true" version you cannot expect every Muslim to learn Arabic. Probably a majority of conversions came from "altered" translations. The truths within the text do not go away simply by changing the language.

However, the Arabic version should always be authoritative. No Qu'ran should be translated from any version other than the original, and the interpretations of passages should always turn to the Arabic version for authority.

yes you can expect every muslim to learn arabic ,do british muslims pray in english or arabic? , you have to learn arabic to be a muslim otherwise you are just reciting salat parrot fashion or are a kind of muslim but not really practising, how can you be muslim if you cannot read the quran. the point i am trying to make is that the islamic empires totally assimilated whole nations and the use of arabic as a "holy" language helped that assimilation

The Quran in English: with cautionary points to consider. Those who have tried to translate the Quran from its Arabic original have found it impossible to express the same wealth of ideas with a limited number of words in the new language. Comparing any translation with the original Arabic is like comparing a thumbnail sketch with the natural view of a splendid landscape rich in color, light and shade, and sonorous in melody. Scanty knowledge of classical Arabic would deprive anyone from appreciating the different shades of meaning rendered by the occasionally slightly different declensions of Arabic words. "No man has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness and such range of emotional effects." "To anyone who has not heard the sonorous majesty of an Arab reciting the Quran, it is impossible to convey what the Book lacks in English, French or German."
Translations of the Holy Quran: Tried and True?


The Arabic language is the language of the Noble Qur'ân, and with it, the Qur'ân was revealed upon the seal of the Messengers, so attention to the Arabic language is to have attention to the Book of Allah the Most High and the studying and the practicing of it helps in the understanding of the Noble Book of Allah and the narration of the master of the Prophets, Muhammad (Peace be upon him). It is also the language of our esteemed Islamic law (As-Sharee'ah), so when we defend it we are not proceeding on a path of nationalism or racism or culturalism, but in fact we are defending the language of our religion (way of life) and it is the cloak of our Islamic Civilisation

arabic_the_language_of_the_quran-Allaahuakbar......An Invitation to Discover True Islaam [Salaf][Quran][Hadith][Islam][sunnah][allaahuakbar.net][Muslim][Christianity] [Hinduism][atheist][Buddism][Jain][jesus][Bible
​

 

[Popeyesays]

One can perform salat in English, or French, or whatever. It is done every day. Jews learn enough Hebrew to read it in public. That's the point of the Bar Mitzvah to demonstrate some capability.

If the salat could not performed in English, it would not exist in English.

Regards,
Scott

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

In actuality, one can technically be a muslim without learning arabic. One can learn enough to be functional, as in learning enough Quran to recite salaat. Salaat cannot be properly performed without performing it in arabic. One of the requisets of salaat is that qirat be done. Qirat is the recitation of Quran, and Quran can only be recited in Arabic. So kai is correct to a certain extent. To be a functional practicing muslim, one is expected to learn enough Quran in arabic to perform basic acts of worship. Even if a person becomes muslims and is a new muslim they are expected to immediately perform salaat in arabic. This can be done even if one has not memorized a single ayat, because the scholars have agreed that to say any dhikr that is found in Quran such as 'alhamdulillah' or 'subhanallah' constitues enough to perform the basic movement of salaat.

Even though it is only the bare necessity to learn enough Quran for salaat and other duties, it is highly negligable to be a muslim 10,15, sometimes 20 years or more without making effort to not only memorize Quran but learn the meaning of it as well. I know people who have been muslim many more years than me who cannot say salaat. This is negligence of a high degree and reflects their unwillingness to devote enough time and energy to the worship of Allah properly. Gaining knowledge, particularly of Islam is considered a high act of worship. It is unappreciated by Allah for a muslim to be an ignorant worshipper who does so blindly without so much as picking up a book, or learning anything on their own.


Narrated AbudDarda':
Kathir ibn Qays said: I was sitting with AbudDarda' in the mosque of Damascus.
A man came to him and said: AbudDarda, I have come to you from the town of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) for a tradition that I have heard you relate from the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). I have come for no other purpose.
He said: I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: If anyone travels on a road in search of knowledge, Allah will cause him to travel on one of the roads of Paradise. The angels will lower their wings in their great pleasure with one who seeks knowledge, the inhabitants of the heavens and the Earth and the fish in the deep waters will ask forgiveness for the learned man. The superiority of the learned man over the devout is like that of the moon, on the night when it is full, over the rest of the stars. The learned are the heirs of the Prophets, and the Prophets leave neither dinar nor dirham, leaving only knowledge, and he who takes it takes an abundant portion.


This hadith comes to mind. This is how Allah regards those who seek knowledge especially if they go to great lengths to do so. I cannot find the other hadith I wanted to post, but it said to the effect that one learned person is harder upon the shaitan than seventy ignorant worshippers although they are devout. More or less that is what it stated. So gaining knowledge of all types and more specifically that of deen is of the utmost importance. A muslim must ahve knowledge or else they will not know the rulings of Allah and His rasul on various matters, and will be prone to go astray.

 

[Popeyesays]

A Baha`i is called upon to chant the Greatest Name of God* 95 times each day. The Greatest name is chanted in Arabic. Obligatory prayer can be said in whatever language. I know Baha`i's who learn the short obligatory prayer in a dozen languages.

* Allah'u'abha

Regards,
Scott