Islamic prohibition on rape

[JerryL]

It's OK to feel insecure. Relax, life is good really.

Do you have anything to say on the topic, or shall I simply assume that you are unaware of any proscription against rape in the Quran?

BTW, Why are you so testy over the thought that such a prohibition might not exist? There's an axiom in psycology that people tend to see in others attributes that are in themselves (that's the point of a whole slew of psycological tests, such as the Rorschach test.) Let's see what you've seen in others:

Childish, arrogant, frantic, threatened, obsessed, insecure (every one a word you've used in the past couple posts to describe me). Certainly, your attempts to distract from the subject with such comments seems to bear out that they have some basis in your own position. What are you threatend by?

 

[TashaN]

I'm a little unclear. Does this mean it's OK to coerce yor slaves into whoredom if they are not desirous of marriage?

[33] "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)".

You have to know first of all that some verses were revealed to prophet Moahmed to teach Muslims and as a reply to them sometimes and we nowdays follow what they were doing as Allah command them.

in the time of Prophet Moahmmed (PBUH) there were some people use thier slaves to get money or to have respect and honor by the one who intercourse with ehr slave. After that a slave girl said that she is not doing that no more because she is a muslim and she dosn't want to do it even though her master is a non-Muslim. Then, when she complained to the prophet (PBUH) he asked her to not do so (even though the non-Muslim have her) then Allah said that they don't have to force thier slaves to do such a thing but if those slaves did it (by force) so Allah will forgive them because they are slaves and thier master will punish them if they didn't obey him so even though those slaves did it so Allah will forgive them because thier intention was to not do it.

There is hadith from prophet Moahmed and he said in it's meaning that: Allah has forgive for my nation in case they forget, they did a mistake or in case somone forced them to do so.

 

[Merlin]

Do you have anything to say on the topic, or shall I simply assume that you are unaware of any proscription against rape in the Quran?

BTW, Why are you so testy over the thought that such a prohibition might not exist? There's an axiom in psycology that people tend to see in others attributes that are in themselves (that's the point of a whole slew of psycological tests, such as the Rorschach test.) Let's see what you've seen in others:

Childish, arrogant, frantic, threatened, obsessed, insecure (every one a word you've used in the past couple posts to describe me). Certainly, your attempts to distract from the subject with such comments seems to bear out that they have some basis in your own position. What are you threatend by?

The words are quite accurate representations of your posts.

Actually, I find you very interesting. Obsessed with rape, and only interested in the attitude of Islam. These are the elements of your strange questions that fascinate me.

It is clear that Islam forbids rape. It does not forbid marital rape. But it also does not forbid credit card fraud. Both of those 'crimes' had not been invented when the Qu'ran was written.

I will bet you are physically a big guy. For some strange reason, Islamophobic guys are always big.

 

[JerryL]

The words are quite accurate representations of your posts.

Actually, I find you very interesting. Obsessed with rape, and only interested in the attitude of Islam. These are the elements of your strange questions that fascinate me.

So you gldaly start bringing up motivations (ad hominyms), and without supporting them. Then, when your motivations for bringing up motivations are called into questioned, along with the reasoning, you ignore it entirely.

You really need to move past the denial stage if you want to make progress.

It is clear that Islam forbids rape. It does not forbid marital rape. But it also does not forbid credit card fraud.

I don't think it's clear at all that Islam forbids rape.... at least not in any direct sense.

Islam does forbit credit card fraud as it is stealing, which is forbidden (I believe) in the Quran. It's not directly addressed because it did not occur at the time (unless you ask a believer, in which case I assume he would assume God addressed it in stealing and saw no need to be specific).

Rape of someone other than your wife or slave would indeed seem to be outlawed under the chastity rules... though I know that there are many Muslims who have interpreted it diffrently (that they should not rape Muslim women, but that pagans are OK); though I'm not convinced that this is a supportable position.

Both of those 'crimes' had not been invented when the Qu'ran was written.

No one raped their wives or slaves in 500 CE? I'd love to see you support that assertion.

I will bet you are physically a big guy. For some strange reason, Islamophobic guys are always big.

Really? What are you willing to bet? Do you have the strength of your convictions or are you just talking out of your butt again?

LOL Islamophobic... funny.

 

[JerryL]

in the time of Prophet Moahmmed (PBUH) there were some people use thier slaves to get money or to have respect and honor by the one who intercourse with ehr slave. After that a slave girl said that she is not doing that no more because she is a muslim and she dosn't want to do it even though her master is a non-Muslim. Then, when she complained to the prophet (PBUH) he asked her to not do so (even though the non-Muslim have her) then Allah said that they don't have to force thier slaves to do such a thing but if those slaves did it (by force) so Allah will forgive them because they are slaves and thier master will punish them if they didn't obey him so even though those slaves did it so Allah will forgive them because thier intention was to not do it.

Don't sell your slaves sexual services for money if they want to remain chaste.

I got that.

How does this prohibit forcing sex yourself (rape, not forced prostitution)?

 

[croak]

Actually, I find you very interesting. Obsessed with rape, and only interested in the attitude of Islam. These are the elements of your strange questions that fascinate me.

I agree, Merlin.
JerryL, there might not be a clear prohibition on rape. Why? Because every sane human being knows it's wrong. Unless they've been brainwashed. How do we know it's wrong? Because someone is saying no, to your face, and you aren't listening. You are going against human rights. A woman has the right to say yes or no, and if you disregard those rights, then it would be a sin.

For some reason, I can't post properly on posts of this type. Maybe because I know that it is prohibited and punished. Or maybe I'm too young.

 

[flysky]

I agree, Merlin.
JerryL, there might not be a clear prohibition on rape. Why? Because every sane human being knows it's wrong. Unless they've been brainwashed. How do we know it's wrong? Because someone is saying no, to your face, and you aren't listening. You are going against human rights. A woman has the right to say yes or no, and if you disregard those rights, then it would be a sin.

For some reason, I can't post properly on posts of this type. Maybe because I know that it is prohibited and punished. Or maybe I'm too young.

You are right my friend. Its shame people are trying to take this matter and discuss. All I can say is that Islam forbidded it and if you do it you will be punished "PERIOD"
This is what our Beloved Prophet did and we go with that
During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

and if you don't like what our Prophet (PBUH) gave that person in punishment i would suggest you to go and talk to person you was raped and ask if our Prophet (PBUH) was right or wrong in the punishment.

 

[TashaN]

How does this prohibit forcing sex yourself (rape, not forced prostitution)?

Brother JerryL, If your grandfather want to teach you how to deal with your parents for example.

Will he say: Don't beat your parents, Don't shout at them and Don't do bad things to them

or he will give you adviced such as to be nice to them, obey them, to give them what they want?

Which one is better as a lesson to you?

Moreover, Quran is not just a book of scince, a book of law, a book or rules and order BUT it contains all these things and more in all aspects of life so sometimes God forbid, sometimes God teach, sometimes God punish, sometimes God forgive. it's a comprehinsive holy book which contain all types of teaching, morals, laws and miracles .. etc. all in one book. I wish that you try to open your heart, your mind before you read what i'll post now but if you are looking for the statment: (Don't rape) so i can't help you with that with my little knowledge about this issue and i apologize that i can't support you with such a statment.

Attitudes towards women
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (An-Nisa 4:19)

The Right of Women not to be Forced
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Barira's husband was a slave called Mughith, as if I am seeing him now, going behind Barira and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to 'Abbas, "O 'Abbas ! are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith?" The Prophet then said to Barira, "Why don't you return to him?" She said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you order me to do so?" He said, "No, I only intercede for him." She said, "I am not in need of him." (Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 206)

On the Treatment of Women
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: "What do you say (command) about our wives?" He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139) "The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy). "None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

A Husband must keep the Privacy of his Wife
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The most wicked among the people in the eye of Allah on the Day of Judgement is the man who goes to his wife and she comes to him, and then he divulges her secret. (Muslim Book 8, Number 3369)

A Husband's Attitude
'Umar ibn al-Khattab (RA) said that a man came to his house to complain about his wife. On reaching the door of his house, he hears 'Umar's wife shouting at him and reviling him. Seeing this, he was about to go back, thinking that 'Umar himself was in the same position and, therefore, could hardly suggest any solution for his problem. 'Umar (RA) saw the man turn back, so he called him and enquired about the purpose of his visit. He said that he had come with a complaint against his wife, but turned back on seeing the Caliph in the same position. 'Umar (RA) told him that he tolerated the excesses of his wife for she had certain rights against him. He said, "Is it not true that she prepares food for me, washes clothes for me and suckles my children, thus saving me the expense of employing a cook, a washerman and a nurse, though she is not legally obliged in any way to do any of these things? Besides, I enjoy peace of mind because of her and am kept away from indecent acts on account of her. I therefore tolerate all her excesses on account of these benefits. It is right that you should also adopt the same attitude." quoted in Rahman, Role of Muslim Women page 149

The Prophet's Disapproval of Women Beaters
Patient behavior was the practice of the Prophet, even when his wife dared to address him harshly. Once his mother-in-law- saw her daughter strike him with her fist on his noble chest. When the enraged mother -in-law began to reproach her daughter, the Prophet smilingly said, "Leave her alone; they do worse than that." And once Abu Bakr, his father-in-law, was invited to settle some misunderstanding between him and Aishah. The Prophet said to her, "Will you speak, or shall I speak?" Aisha said, "You speak, but do not say except the truth." Abu Bakr was so outraged that he immediately struck her severely, forcing her to run and seek protection behind the back of the Prophet. Abu Bakr said, "O you the enemy of herself! Does the Messenger of Allah say but the truth?" The Prophet said, "O Abu Bakr, we did not invite you for this [harsh dealing with Aishah], nor did we anticipate it." quoted in: Mutual Rights and Obligations

And Allah (swt) knows best.



http://www.islamfortoday.com/womens_rights_references.htm

 

[Darkdale]

They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

and if you don't like what our Prophet (PBUH) gave that person in punishment i would suggest you to go and talk to person you was raped and ask if our Prophet (PBUH) was right or wrong in the punishment.

Reason 4,092 why I'm not a Muslim.

 

[michel]

he he I'm not sure of the reason number, but I am with you there.

 

[TashaN]

Reason 4,092 why I'm not a Muslim.

he he I'm not sure of the reason number, but I am with you there.

May Allah bless you and guide you to all the truth both of you.

 

[Darkdale]

May Allah bless you and guide you to all the truth both of you.

Allah can politely mind his own business. I want nothing to do with him. My gods are everything I need and more.

 

[michel]

Allah can politely mind his own business. I want nothing to do with him. My gods are everything I need and more.

Fruballing you is becoming a habit Darkdale. I didn't particularly intend responding in the quest for PC

 

[JerryL]

JerryL, there might not be a clear prohibition on rape. Why? Because every sane human being knows it's wrong.

Your reason doesn't work. Ignoring that it's entierly untrue; would you say that every sane human being knows it's wrong to force someone into prostitution? OK, so why is there a prohibition on forcing someone into prostitution?

Would you say that every sane human being knows that adultry is wrong? What about murder? What about robbery? Every one of these has a prohibition.

How about this? Would the genocide of a people, including the slaugter of infant boys be wrong? Would any sane person know that? Hope you are not Jewesh, Christian, or Muslim of you believe that [actually, I'm not clear if Islam accepts the events I'm thinking of; though I know the other two religions do]

You are going against human rights.

Questions are against human rights?

Does a woman have the right to marry who she wants? Or must the person be a man and of the same religion? Does a woman have a right to deny her husband sex? What if she does?

 

[JerryL]

You are right my friend. Its shame people are trying to take this matter and discuss. All I can say is that Islam forbidded it and if you do it you will be punished "PERIOD"

So people keep asserting... but when asked for the passage none can produce it. Odd how that is, neh?

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

What was the woman forgiven for?

Have you considered that the man and the woman committed the same sin (likely adultry or a failure of chastity) and that the woman was forgiven because it was against her will and the man was not? Can you support your assertion that it was the fact that the sex was forced that was the reason for the stoning?

Some Muslims do not believe in this Saying as an authentic one, because it didn't come from a "Sahih" (authentic in English) source. It came from "Sunan Abu Dawud". Sayings of our Prophet's companions and wives narrated in "Sunan Abu Dawud" are indeed authentic. But Sayings from other people such as Wa'il ibn Hujr above are doubtful.

"Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 17, The Book Pertaining to Punishments Prescribed by Islam (Kitab Al-Hudud), Number 4191)"

"It has been narrated on the authority of Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas who said: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir b. Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the police of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival). (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 20, The Book on Government (Kitab Al-Imara), Number 4483)"

So the question remains: What was the man actually stoned for in your example? What was the woman forgiven of?

and if you don't like what our Prophet (PBUH) gave that person in punishment i would suggest you to go and talk to person you was raped and ask if our Prophet (PBUH) was right or wrong in the punishment.

It's not an issue of like or dislike. I've made no moral commentary at all. I've asked a question of fact: Does Islam proscribe rape? While I've gotten a lot of "yes" answeres, no one has been able to substatiate that with Islamic scripture.

This fact seems to have made an awful lot of people jumpy / defensive.

 

[JerryL]

Moreover, Quran is not just a book of scince, a book of law, a book or rules and order BUT it contains all these things and more in all aspects of life so sometimes God forbid, sometimes God teach, sometimes God punish, sometimes God forgive. it's a comprehinsive holy book which contain all types of teaching, morals, laws and miracles .. etc. all in one book. I wish that you try to open your heart, your mind before you read what i'll post now but if you are looking for the statment: (Don't rape) so i can't help you with that with my little knowledge about this issue and i apologize that i can't support you with such a statment.

I appriciate your honesty.

Attitudes towards women: Don't inhereit against their wills, nor be harsh. The former is not on-point and the latter is vague.

The Right of Women not to be Forced Women cannot be forced to return to a marriage.

On the Treatment of Women Feed, cloth and don't beat. Treat them honorably. I wouldn't consider rape honorable; but I don't wish to inject my own morality in an inherently vague claim.
A Husband must keep the Privacy of his Wife Spousal privelage. Not sure what this has to do with rape.

A Husband's Attitude Put up with abusive women because they do a lot for you.

The Prophet's Disapproval of Women Beaters Your inlaws should not beat your wife. I note that Muhamid did not have any problem with apousal battery when she hit him. Is this prescedent?

Please realize that I'm not trying to make a judgement call. Christianity has no Biblical proscription on rape (by all accounts, the OT in particular sees no problem with it). I suspect that Jesus would not have liked it, and Paul didn't like sex at all... but I'm digressing.

There are several elements of the Quran that seem interested in expanding women's rights; though in practical application, Islamic states are pretty universally repressive towards women (compared to other contemporary states)... but I'm merely interested in discovering if there's a prohibition on rape in Islamic scripture.

There's no direct condemnation. Whether there is an implied prohibition depends on whether it's considered "dishonorable" to the author. I don't know the answer to that question.

 

[Merlin]

Allah can politely mind his own business. I want nothing to do with him. My gods are everything I need and more.

But you don't actually know, do you? I hope for your sake you are right.

 

[Merlin]

On the Treatment of Women Treat them honorably. [I wouldn't consider rape honorable];

.

Does that not answer your question? If rape is dishonourable, and the Quran instructs that women should be treated honourably, is that not a prohibition?

 

[Merlin]

he he I'm not sure of the reason number, but I am with you there.

I am not a Moslem, but it is a very nice and starkly simple religion. It does allow concentration to be entirely on God (Allah). They don't have all of our hangups about whether we should be worshipping Jesus, Mary, and Joseph; whether we should allow people to touch and pray to idols in the churches or icons; etc

 

[JerryL]

Does that not answer your question? If rape is dishonourable, and the Quran instructs that women should be treated honourably, is that not a prohibition?

Doesn't cover your "if". If the author of the quran considered rape dishonorable, and if his comment was all-inclusive then it would be a prohibition. I'm not clear that those "if"s are met.

I am not a Moslem, but it is a very nice and starkly simple religion. It does allow concentration to be entirely on God (Allah). They don't have all of our hangups about whether we should be worshipping Jesus, Mary, and Joseph; whether we should allow people to touch and pray to idols in the churches or icons; etc

You mean like three pillars acting as icons for Satan, and a big cube acting as an icon of God's home? Icons like those?