Isn't it better to be atheists?

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: If there is no God and we believed there was a God the worst that can happen is that we die and there is nothing.

It Aint Necessarily So said: This argument has been refuted previously by others:

No, it had not been refuted successfully... not on my watch.

What if God exists and is offended by those who only believe to hedge their bet?

No, it is not really the same as Pascal’s wager because I am not saying that you should believe in God just in case God exists. I am saying not to discount the idea that there is a God but rather keep looking for evidence that God exists. If, having searched and not found, you still do not believe that God exist, I do not really think that God will blame you for that, since you at least made an effort. God does not want phonies so God does not want you to pretend you believe just to get a reward. That won’t work anyway since God knows all your thoughts and feelings.

What if you meet Allah on judgment day and He is angry that you chose the wrong god?

There is only One God so you cannot choose the wrong God. Do you mean that you chose the wrong religion?

What if you are reincarnated as a maggot for turning your attention to false gods?

If there is a real God, that God is not going to punish you by turning you into a maggot. A false god cannot “do anything” because he is false and has no power (to reincarnate you).

What if there is a god that rewards reason and punishes faith?

Sorry, this one won’t work because it is your reason that you need to use to determine if God exists. Also, this is illogical. Why would a real God punish faith in Him?

“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen… ”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

In that passage, “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people” means that God could have revealed Himself in some way such that everyone would know He exists. In that passage, “ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean” means using your reason (innate powers) to determine if God exists. God wants everyone to search for Him and determine that He exists by using their own reason. God also wants us to have faith, and that is why God does not offer unequivocal proof of His existence. Those who have faith are rewarded.I might add that for those of us who have real faith, it is no longer faith because we know God exists even though there is no objective proof. Maybe this is what God is trying to achieve?

What if the universe is run by a demon that punishes those that believe in gods?

That is silly.

There are also possible costs in this life.
What if there is no god and you devoted thousands of hours and dollars to a false religion?

Now, that is a very valid point, and that is why you want to be certain before you believe in ANY religion.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

What if there is no god and you failed to mature authentically both intellectually and emotionally because you were taught that faith is a virtue and reason the enemy, and you never developed an internal moral compass because you were relying on a book to do that for you?

What if there is a God and you failed to get the message this God revealed through the Messenger and you thereby failed to mature spiritually? What if just because you were taught that faith is the enemy and that there is no such thing as a reasonable faith, you missed out on knowing what God’s will is for you and as a result you never developed what you will need to have on board in the afterlife? What if you were relying upon your own internal compass and it was wrong whereas the scriptures of a religion were right?

I'd say that the safest course of action is to lead an upright life as best you understand that to be. If that leads to a undesirable afterlife, then all one can say is that we were born into an unsafe and unfair universe and never had a chance but to guess correctly.

I'd say that the safest course of action is to lead an upright life as best you understand that to be and keep your mind open to the idea that God might exist and God might have a revealed a religion that is actually in accord with reason. Then, if you never seem to find such a religion you can say you at least made an effort. Sincerity and effort is all that God requires. Some fruit does not ripen until it falls from the tree. Some people never find God in this life but they can find Him in the afterlife. There is really no way to know what the repercussions of not believing in God will be when we get to the afterlife, but we do know what the result will be if we did:

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

If that leads to a undesirable afterlife, then all one can say is that we were born into an unsafe and unfair universe and never had a chance but to guess correctly.

Logically speaking, if there is an omnipotent God who sets the rules, then pleas such as “that was not fair” will not fly… You will be the one left holding the bag because God is omnipotent and you are not, although I have no idea what that bag will look like… and speaking of pleas, you just reminded me of this passage. I really hate to post it because it is kind of harsh, but it is better to know these things ahead of time.

“... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

 

[Trailblazer]

What you have re-created here, is another version of Paschal's Wager. The problem is, that you cannot possibly know which sort of god it is.

What if the god is super-rational? And is disdainful of people who believe "just in case".

Moreover, if such a god accepts people who believe as a kind of dodge, or escape clause? That means such a god is kind of an a-hole, really. Something of a narcissistic egomaniac. Or worse-- really, really stupid to be fooled so easily, by mere human's clever scheming.

No, it is not really the same as Pascal’s wager because I am not saying that you should believe in God just in case God exists. I am saying not to discount the idea that there is a God but rather keep looking for evidence that God exists. If, having searched and not found, you still do not believe that God exist, I do not really think that God will blame you for that, since you at least made an effort. God does not want phonies so God does not want you to pretend you believe just to get a reward. That won’t work anyway since God knows all your thoughts and feelings.

If the god of the universe is at all rational? And since you already agree there is no real proof of any gods? Then?

Why would such a rational being punish people for being rational, and not believing? For following the evidence to it's logical conclusion (highly doubtful there are any gods). That is rather a childish move on god's part--- something I'd expect from a toddler, but not an adult.

I never said that God would punish people for not believing, but there might be a price to pay, which is really no more than your own self-inflicted punishment.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

But right out the door, you need to understand the difference between proof and evidence.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

God does not provide proof that He exists but He provides ample evidence. God wants us to look at the evidence and make the determination. An Almighty God is not going to barter with humans and provide the proof they want… It just does not work that way.

There is no objective proof that God exists, but once one strongly believes in the evidence then that person has proven to themselves that God exists. A believer once chided me when I said I know God exists; he said I cannot know, I can only believe… But I do know because of the evidence I have. That believer does not have the same amount or quality of evidence so he can only believe… He won’t look at my evidence so he will just have to be satisfied to believe….

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, it is not really the same as Pascal’s wager because I am not saying that you should believe in God just in case God exists. I am saying not to discount the idea that there is a God but rather keep looking for evidence that God exists. If, having searched and not found, you still do not believe that God exist, I do not really think that God will blame you for that, since you at least made an effort. God does not want phonies so God does not want you to pretend you believe just to get a reward. That won’t work anyway since God knows all your thoughts and feelings.

Well, if god knows all my thoughts and feelings? It knows exactly what I need to believe in it. I spent more than 40 years searching-- and the single common thread of all god-claims examined, was the god in question failing to show up.

The fact that this being absolutely refuses to show itself? Says a lot of things-- none of which are good.

Or else? It simply does not care either way--- which means it absolutely does not matter either way: believe or not, the results will be exactly the same outcome.

To do otherwise? Would be to play Special Favorites, we even a toddler recognizes is immoral (unfair).

God does not provide proof that He exists but He provides ample evidence.

Demonstratively false. See above. I take "ample" to mean "sufficient"--- of which there absolutely is not.

There is no objective proof that God exists, but once one strongly believes in the evidence then that person has proven to themselves that God exists.

What? If you must believe-- first? That is not evidence, that is brainwashing, really. And you never need proof [in that instance], once you leave Reason and step off into the arena of Faith (delusion).

A visit to the insane asylum proves the futility of faith anyway. As does a visit to any Children's Hospital.

 

[shmogie]

We have a obligation to ourselves first and others second to be as correct as possible.

More and more, I'm avoiding the use of the word truth, especially when attended by qualifiers such as objective, absolute, and ultimate. If I can use an idea to accurately predict and at times control outcomes, I add that to my collection of what I call knowledge. Ideas that cannot do that are discarded.

For me, truth is the quality that facts possess, facts being linguistic strings (sentences) that accurately map a piece of reality.
If the linguistic string is "I live five blocks north and three blocks east of the pier," I will call that a fact if it corresponds to my home's location relative to the pier.

If that idea consistently allows to predict that going north or east will not get me to the pier until I circumnavigate the earth, or that going only two blocks south will not get me there either, but that if I go five blocks south and three west from my door, that I will be at the pier, and that gets me there, then that qualifies as a fact and a true statement for me. I am uninterested in whether that is an ultimate truth, an absolute truth



Some of us define atheist as unbeliever - everybody that answers no to the question "Do you believe in a god or gods?" If 113 people go from yes to know in that department, the world just lost 113 theists and gained 113 atheists.



Atheism can't be false, even if gods exist. I have no reason to believe that they do, therefore don't, and therefore am an atheist by virtue of giving that no answer to the question about a god belief..



By the definition many if not most atheists use by now, you are an atheist if you are not a theist just as a geometric object is either symmetric or asymmetric. All objects (and abstractions, such as the division of assets after a divorce) to which the terms can be meaningfully applied are one or the other, and nothing is both in the same sense at the same time, a relationship sometimes called MECE, or mutually exclusive / collectively exhaustive.

There are other formulations that allow one to be neither an atheist or a theist, but they have to define theist and atheist as those that explicitly claims to know that gods do or don't exist. Some make neither claim, but still have no god belief. You might not call that an atheist, but I do.

You are easily defined as an agnostic. The term coming from the early gnostics, who claimed the had " more, special knowledge " than other Christians. Those who didn't claim this were called (a) gnostic, the a essentially meaning anti or against. Modern usage means someone who feels there is no special knowledge available to determine there are God /gods or none. They believe that if more knowledge develops that may tilt the equation one way or another they will seriously and objectively consider it. They believe in nothing re God/ no God, there isn't enough information to form a belief.My personal progression was committed atheist, agnostic for many years, Christian.

 

[shmogie]

No, it is not really the same as Pascal’s wager because I am not saying that you should believe in God just in case God exists. I am saying not to discount the idea that there is a God but rather keep looking for evidence that God exists. If, having searched and not found, you still do not believe that God exist, I do not really think that God will blame you for that, since you at least made an effort. God does not want phonies so God does not want you to pretend you believe just to get a reward. That won’t work anyway since God knows all your thoughts and feelings.

I never said that God would punish people for not believing, but there might be a price to pay, which is really no more than your own self-inflicted punishment.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

But right out the door, you need to understand the difference between proof and evidence.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

God does not provide proof that He exists but He provides ample evidence. God wants us to look at the evidence and make the determination. An Almighty God is not going to barter with humans and provide the proof they want… It just does not work that way.

There is no objective proof that God exists, but once one strongly believes in the evidence then that person has proven to themselves that God exists. A believer once chided me when I said I know God exists; he said I cannot know, I can only believe… But I do know because of the evidence I have. That believer does not have the same amount or quality of evidence so he can only believe… He won’t look at my evidence so he will just have to be satisfied to believe….

The Christian Bible says the demons believe in God, that isn';t the biggest deal, the biggest deal is having faith that in love he will do exactly what he says he will do for and in those with that faith. God has given ample evidence of himself in the creation itself, not just in Holy writings. ALL the evidence must be evaluated, history, archaeology, natural sciences, personal testimony, observations of others, philosophical considerations, every scrap.

 

[shmogie]

Phffffffft!!! Splat!!!! Dribble . . . Dribble . . .

I understand, Waaay beyond your comprehension, else you would dispute it point by point, You can't. Typical response

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am not saying that you should believe in God just in case God exists. I am saying not to discount the idea that there is a God but rather keep looking for evidence that God exists.

Your words were, "If there is no God and we believed there was a God the worst that can happen is that we die and there is nothing." That's the comment I refuted. I pointed out that there could be a cost to a false belief. You seem to be saying something different here, something about searching for a god.

There is only One God so you cannot choose the wrong God.

That's a religious belief. There may be one god, no gods, or multiple gods. Who can justifiably rule any of those possibilities in or out?

And if there is only one, but you have chosen to believe in a false, nonexistent god, it is logically possible that you will be punished for it. That's why your claim above is

If there is a real God, that God is not going to punish you by turning you into a maggot.

You don't know that. You can't know that.

it is your reason that you need to use to determine if God exists.

Reason tells me that the question is unanswerable unless a god exists and manifests itself unequivocably.

What if there is a God and you failed to get the message this God revealed through the Messenger and you thereby failed to mature spiritually?

That is logically possible, although the evidence suggests to me that the irreligious have the more authentic spiritual experience, or at least that is the case with those that seem to dislike everything about this universe and view life as a giant bus stop where they are waiting to be taken to a better place.

I'm talking about the people who see the universe as base matter fit to be destroyed in a fiery apocalypse, man as a failed and spiritually diseased race, human societies as loathsome and to be distant from, and their own bodies as fleshy prisons for a soul that they would like to escape. One of the cardinal features of spirituality is a sense of connectedness with ones world.

A typical spiritual experience would be to look up at the night sky and recognize that the star that you are looking at sent a drop of light that traversed the distance between you and it to connect with you and let its existence be known, and to know that you have an ever deeper connection to such stars that forged the elements of life and sent them hurtling across vast distances so that you and I could be what we are - stardust, literally.

There is no need for a god belief to have a rich, mature, spiritual journey in life.

What if just because you were taught that faith is the enemy and that there is no such thing as a reasonable faith

I learned that believing by faith is a logical error from experience. I once made a very bad decision because of religious faith.

To me, reasonable faith is an oxymoron, like married bachelor. A given belief is supported by reason applied to evidence or is believed without support or with insufficient support.

Reason isn't the only mode of thought that I value, but it's the only mode of thought that I value for deciding what is true.

I'd say that the safest course of action is to lead an upright life as best you understand that to be and keep your mind open to the idea that God might exist and God might have a revealed a religion that is actually in accord with reason.

That doesn't sound very different from what I wrote. Specifically, be kind, considerate, honest, grateful, dependable, industrious, etc., and keep an open mind. Accumulate the ideas that work and tweak or discard those that don't, and be satisfied with what you need. With some luck, like not being crippled in an accident, or being born into an abusive family or a war-torn part of the world, one should have a satisfying life.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You are easily defined as an agnostic.

Agree. I call myself an agnostic atheist. I am an atheist because I do not believe in any god or gods, and an agnostic because I don't claim to know whether gods exist or not.

My personal progression was committed atheist, agnostic for many years, Christian.

Mine was from gnostic atheist to Christian to agnostic atheist.

God has given ample evidence of himself in the creation itself, not just in Holy writings.

To me, the universe is not evidence for a god. It is evidence for a universe. It's origin if any is still unknown.

 

[shmogie]

Your words were, "If there is no God and we believed there was a God the worst that can happen is that we die and there is nothing." That's the comment I refuted. I pointed out that there could be a cost to a false belief. You seem to be saying something different here, something about searching for a god.



That's a religious belief. There may be one god, no gods, or multiple gods. Who can justifiably rule any of those possibilities in or out?

And if there is only one, but you have chosen to believe in a false, nonexistent god, it is logically possible that you will be punished for it. That's why your claim above is



You don't know that. You can't know that.



Reason tells me that the question is unanswerable unless a god exists and manifests itself unequivocably.



That is logically possible, although the evidence suggests to me that the irreligious have the more authentic spiritual experience, or at least that is the case with those that seem to dislike everything about this universe and view life as a giant bus stop where they are waiting to be taken to a better place.

I'm talking about the people who see the universe as base matter fit to be destroyed in a fiery apocalypse, man as a failed and spiritually diseased race, human societies as loathsome and to be distant from, and their own bodies as fleshy prisons for a soul that they would like to escape. One of the cardinal features of spirituality is a sense of connectedness with ones world.

A typical spiritual experience would be to look up at the night sky and recognize that the star that you are looking at sent a drop of light that traversed the distance between you and it to connect with you and let its existence be known, and to know that you have an ever deeper connection to such stars that forged the elements of life and sent them hurtling across vast distances so that you and I could be what we are - stardust, literally.

There is no need for a god belief to have a rich, mature, spiritual journey in life.



I learned that believing by faith is a logical error from experience. I once made a very bad decision because of religious faith.

To me, reasonable faith is an oxymoron, like married bachelor. A given belief is supported by reason applied to evidence or is believed without support or with insufficient support.

Reason isn't the only mode of thought that I value, but it's the only mode of thought that I value for deciding what is true.



That doesn't sound very different from what I wrote. Specifically, be kind, considerate, honest, grateful, dependable, industrious, etc., and keep an open mind. Accumulate the ideas that work and tweak or discard those that don't, and be satisfied with what you need. With some luck, like not being crippled in an accident, or being born into an abusive family or a war-torn part of the world, one should have a satisfying life.

No, the universe is not base matter. Many Christians recognize this. There is a verse in the Bible that says the heavens declare the glory of God. They also recognize that humanity is seriously flawed when compared to what they believe God desires. In total the humanist idea of an ever improving human seems to have failed. Humans are depleting natural resources, seriously disrupting the various ecological and biological systems that sustain the earth, made war more deadly to the point of total destruction of humanity, I could go on, you get the point. Many Christians know that the teaching is that the earth will not be destroyed but will be renewed and replenished, and humanity will inhabit it, humanity that won't seek to destroy one another, or the earth. My opinion is that there are certainly other inhabited worlds whose beings have never slipped to the levels and stupidity of humanity. Yes, I have met many atheists and agnostics who are kinder, more loving, and less selfish than some professed Christians.

 

[shmogie]

Agree. I call myself an agnostic atheist. I am an atheist because I do not believe in any god or gods, and an agnostic because I don't claim to know whether gods exist or not.



Mine was from gnostic atheist to Christian to agnostic atheist.



To me, the universe is not evidence for a god. It is evidence for a universe. It's origin if any is still unknown.

Your interpretation of the evidence.Actually, most cosmologist believe they can trace it's origin to a certain point. Creation means creator, either blind natural forces, or a being or beings outside the universe, I am not aware of any other possibilities. One might say that my dog is not evidence that his parents had sex, he is only evidence that he is dog.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

In total the humanist idea of an ever improving human seems to have failed.

The world has never been better. Those of us fortunate to have been born in one of the right places enjoy longer lives, and lives that are easier, more comfortable, more connected, and more interesting than our forebears. I tell you this from my air conditioned home under electric lighting from my computer that connects us instantly from anywhere in the world.

My mother was the first person in her family to attend college, but she didn't graduate. My sister and I were the first in our family to graduate from university, and her son and my two daughters did the same. None of us has had to work outdoors or make our livings with our backs.

My wife and I have seen as much of the world as we wanted to - Africa twice, Asia three times, and a host of other exotic locations, something much rarer for past generations

By way of contrast, my aunt had a limp from polio, and my maternal grandfather dropped dead of a heart attack in his fifties, a common occurrence in his generation before cardiac risk factors were routinely identified and effectively treated. I don't know anybody with polio at this time and I am in my sixties now with two such risk factors that I have treated for about 25 years, probably inherited from my grandfather, and can reasonably expect to live into my eighties.

Now for the good news: things really are getting better | Steven Pinker

One might say that my dog is not evidence that his parents had sex, he is only evidence that he is dog.

Disagree. Your dog is strong evidence that its parents mated. Nowadays, there are other possibilities, but they are rarer than the natural method.

In this sense, dogs and universes are sufficiently different that we shouldn't use one as an analogy for the other. We know a lot about dogs come from, and very little about where universes come from.

I don't see how you can say that the universe is evidence for a god. All I see is a universe that could well be godless and.generated by naturalistic processes.

Have you ruled out a multiverse-type hypothesis, by which I mean an unconscious entity that spawns universes? If so, how? What do you see that tells you that it was a god instead, by which I mean a conscious creator for our universe?

 

[Trailblazer]

The Christian Bible says the demons believe in God, that isn';t the biggest deal, the biggest deal is having faith that in love he will do exactly what he says he will do for and in those with that faith. God has given ample evidence of himself in the creation itself, not just in Holy writings. ALL the evidence must be evaluated, history, archaeology, natural sciences, personal testimony, observations of others, philosophical considerations, every scrap.

Creation is evidence to those who see it that way but I do not believe that creation is proof because creation can be explained in other ways.

I believe that the Holy Writings are the best evidence that God exists and the only direct evidence.

I agree that every scrap of evidence needs to be evaluated... If one is really interested in whether God exists or not, they will leave no stone unturned.

 

[shunyadragon]

I understand, Waaay beyond your comprehension, else you would dispute it point by point, You can't. Typical response

Your humility is over whelming!

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, if god knows all my thoughts and feelings? It knows exactly what I need to believe in it. I spent more than 40 years searching-- and the single common thread of all god-claims examined, was the god in question failing to show up.

Yes, God knows what you need to believe in Him, but God does not give everyone what they need which is why some people are nonbelievers.

You checked out ALL God claims?

The fact that this being absolutely refuses to show itself? Says a lot of things-- none of which are good.

How would God show Himself? I have one passage that explains what might happen if God actually did that, and it ain’t pretty.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

There are two parts to that passage. First, it says that if the full Essence of God showed up all created things would perish, and that is because God is just that.... for lack of a better word – powerful and glorious. One reason that God sends Messengers is to lessen that impact and they are able to act as intermediaries between the All-Powerful God and humans. They are called Manifestations of God because they actually manifest God on earth. They are a perfect mirror image of God, and they perfectly reflect God’s Attributes and God’s Will for humanity, but they do not reveal the Essence of God.

The second part of that passage says that if God showed up as you want Him to, everyone would know that God exists because it would just be obvious, and in that case there would be no way to differentiate between the godly (those who searched for God and accepted the evidence God provides) and the froword (disobedient and oppositional people who do not accept that evidence)... That evidence is the Messengers God sends.

Or else? It simply does not care either way--- which means it absolutely does not matter either way: believe or not, the results will be exactly the same outcome.

To do otherwise? Would be to play Special Favorites, we even a toddler recognizes is immoral (unfair).

So, what I hear you saying is that if God does not just show up God does not care so why bother with Him. What I hear you saying is that for God to use Messengers is to play favorites.

I do not consider that moral or unfair because I know the reason God uses them and it is for our own good.... I certainly would not want to hear from God directly and get blown away by His power...

Demonstratively false. See above. I take "ample" to mean "sufficient"--- of which there absolutely is not.

What is insufficient to you is sufficient for about 93% of the world population who believe in God. I will let you do the math on that...

What? If you must believe-- first? That is not evidence, that is brainwashing, really. And you never need proof [in that instance], once you leave Reason and step off into the arena of Faith (delusion).

Yes, you must believe first based upon the evidence, and then after that you actually know that what you believe is true because of the evidence... One first believes and then they strongly believe and then after that they know in their own mind that God exists.... this is a process for most people, not an overnight thing.

A visit to the insane asylum proves the futility of faith anyway. As does a visit to any Children's Hospital.

I never implied that you have to have blind faith; all faith should be well-informed, based upon evidence... I do not believe in faith without reason. That would be akin to false hope, like that child in the hospital.

 

[shmogie]

Your humility is over whelming!

Again, no refutation, just accusation. Thanks for making my point, again

 

[Trailblazer]

My personal progression was committed atheist, agnostic for many years, Christian.

I am curious how you progressed from an atheist to an agnostic to a Christian...

Answer that only if you feel comfortable doing so..

 

[shunyadragon]

Again, no refutation, just accusation. Thanks for making my point, again

Is it better to be atheists?

Well, ah . . . it is better to be . . .

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Yes, God knows what you need to believe in Him, but God does not give everyone what they need which is why some people are nonbelievers.

You checked out ALL God claims?

Enough to know they are all pretty much the same sort of snake-oil (false claims)

How would God show Himself?

To an OmniMAX? It ought to be one of the Simplest Of Things-- but... appparently this is just too much:

I have one passage that explains what might happen if God actually did that, and it ain’t pretty.

So this "god" of your is so monsterious and weak? It cannot manage to dial back it's evil nature?

Okay. that's not very good, and it's kinda weak in fact...

<holey book redacted unread... no proof it's anything but human ravings>

So, what I hear you saying is that if God does not just show up God does not care so why bother with Him. What I hear you saying is that for God to use Messengers is to play favorites.

I do not consider that moral or unfair because I know the reason God uses them and it is for our own good.... I certainly would not want to hear from God directly and get blown away by His power...

Once again? Super evil or super weak or both? Not very impressed by your version of god, here.

Seriously. Your version of god sounds more like Voldemort, who's name cannot be said or some such crapola.

This isn't good. And you are getting even less convincing by the paragraph.

What is insufficient to you is sufficient for about 93% of the world population who believe in God. I will let you do the math on that...

1) mass brainwashing-- brainwashed parents infect their defenseless children, and so on and so on.
2) argument from popularity logical fallacy--

--- not all THAT long ago, everyone just knew the world was flat. Not long ago, everyone just knew, the world was the center of the universe.

People are ignorant, and happy to remain so. Proof? 93% of the world still believes in Magical Wish-Granting Sky Fairies, even though *none* of their wishes are ever actually granted!

Yes, you must believe first based upon the evidence, and then after that you actually know that what you believe is true because of the evidence... One first believes and then they strongly believe and then after that they know in their own mind that God exists.... this is a process for most people, not an overnight thing.

You got that right-- and there ain't any..... evidence I mean. None. Nada. Nix. Zip. Null-set. Zero. People's personal Feelings are not evidence of anything except that they felt something.

What'ya know? You can evoke strong emotions from .... Movies. And Romance Novels. From fiction. Feelings prove zip.

I never implied that you have to have blind faith; all faith should be well-informed, based upon evidence... I do not believe in faith without reason. That would be akin to false hope, like that child in the hospital.

Since there ain't any actual evidence? Blind faith is all you got, here.

You said so yourself: First you have to believe-- then you look for "evidence".

Sorry, but that is a Logical Fallacy: Cognitive Bias.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

. ALL the evidence must be evaluated, history, archaeology, natural sciences, personal testimony, observations of others, philosophical considerations, every scrap.

Sorry, but personal testimony isn't evidence. It's friend of a friend stories. It's emotional stuff.

And there just isn't any evidence for your god. None. Nada. Zip.

Heck-- there isn't even any reliable facts in support of a historical jesus-- let alone a magical, wish-granting version!

Not a single writing by a historian of the first 3 decades (Gregorian) writes about this "jesus" character. We have boat-loads of historical stuff from that time and place-- but nothing about "jesus" (or any variation on that name)

No statues.

No poetry.

No buildings name after him, either.

No personal diaries, no letters-- not a single word about "Jesus" is written until 60, 90 or more after the alleged events. That is three or more generations after!

There just isn't any: No evidence in support of christian beliefs. Not even your NT (bible) was written early enough! It only dates to about 60 years after and worse.... !

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I am not saying that you should believe in God just in case God exists. I am saying not to discount the idea that there is a God but rather keep looking for evidence that God exists.

Your words were, "If there is no God and we believed there was a God the worst that can happen is that we die and there is nothing." That's the comment I refuted. I pointed out that there could be a cost to a false belief. You seem to be saying something different here, something about searching for a god.

Sorry, I probably got off track about what you were actually refuting... I do that sometimes as I tend to be tangential and detailed and I focus on every point. Thanks for reeling me in...

Now, I have to focus on if there is anything worse than dying and there being nothing.

Trailblazer said: There is only One God so you cannot choose the wrong God.

That's a religious belief. There may be one god, no gods, or multiple gods. Who can justifiably rule any of those possibilities in or out?

Fine, I understand your point, but it seems highly unlikely that there are multiple gods; it is more likely that there is no god at all.

And if there is only one, but you have chosen to believe in a false, nonexistent god, it is logically possible that you will be punished for it. That's why your claim above is

Trailblazer said: If there is a real God, that God is not going to punish you by turning you into a maggot.

You don't know that. You can't know that.

Okay, let’s follow that through.... If there is One True God and you chose to believe in a false god it is logically possible you could be punished for that... and if the God has all power and reincarnation is what that god does then you could be turned into a maggot, and that is worse than dying and there being nothing.

Trailblazer said: it is your reason that you need to use to determine if God exists.

Reason tells me that the question is unanswerable unless a god exists and manifests itself unequivocably.

Okay, but what is unequivocal manifestation of the God is viewed differently by different people... For example, I believe that the Manifestation of God in Baha’u’llah is unequivocal because I have no doubt that God exists. YMMV, obviously.

If what is unequivocal for you is God manifesting His Essence on earth, you should read what I posted to Bob the Unbeliever regarding what would happen if God showed up: #154 Trailblazer, Today at 7:12 PM

Trailblazer said: What if there is a God and you failed to get the message this God revealed through the Messenger and you thereby failed to mature spiritually?

That is logically possible, although the evidence suggests to me that the irreligious have the more authentic spiritual experience, or at least that is the case with those that seem to dislike everything about this universe and view life as a giant bus stop where they are waiting to be taken to a better place.

I'm talking about the people who see the universe as base matter fit to be destroyed in a fiery apocalypse, man as a failed and spiritually diseased race, human societies as loathsome and to be distant from, and their own bodies as fleshy prisons for a soul that they would like to escape. One of the cardinal features of spirituality is a sense of connectedness with ones world.

I agree that the nonbelievers have a more authentic spiritual experience if you are comparing them to Christians who believe this world is just a bus stop, a place to wait for Jesus to show up and recreate the earth to make it all new and perfect, like a Garden of Eden.

That is not what Baha’is believe... What we believe is kind of in between what you believe and what some other religious people believe, since we believe that both this world and the afterlife are important. We believe this world is closely connected to the spiritual world beyond because the two worlds are interconnected. In particular, spiritually evolved souls who have passed on have a big effect upon this world, but we can also affect them by praying for them.

But besides that, Baha’is believe that we are to be connected to this world, as you said. Our primary focus is our life is this world, making this world a better place for everyone. We believe that we have been entrusted by God to build the Kingdom of God on earth, also referred to as building the New World Order, which will replace the old world order we now see. So what is different between us and Christians is that they believe Jesus will DO everything what He returns immediately, like magic, and we believe that is OUR JOB and it will take a long time to recreate the world.

A typical spiritual experience would be to look up at the night sky and recognize that the star that you are looking at sent a drop of light that traversed the distance between you and it to connect with you and let its existence be known, and to know that you have an ever deeper connection to such stars that forged the elements of life and sent them hurtling across vast distances so that you and I could be what we are - stardust, literally.

Wow, I never would have expected you to say that.... sounds rather mystical from Mr. Practical...
I love astronomy.

There is no need for a god belief to have a rich, mature, spiritual journey in life.

I agree with that, if this life is all there is, but if what I believe is true, this life is a prelude to an afterlife, a very small part of our total existence. So if there is a God and if that God has revealed certain things that are important to know and do in this life to have a safe passage to the afterlife, then I would say it is pretty important to have this information, sooner rather than later.

Trailblazer said: What if just because you were taught that faith is the enemy and that there is no such thing as a reasonable faith.

I learned that believing by faith is a logical error from experience. I once made a very bad decision because of religious faith.

To me, reasonable faith is an oxymoron, like married bachelor. A given belief is supported by reason applied to evidence or is believed without support or with insufficient support.

Reason isn't the only mode of thought that I value, but it's the only mode of thought that I value for deciding what is true.

I have to agree on that and that is also how I operate. I do not really have much faith, but that is because I do not have to, since I came to my conclusions about my religion using reason. In short, I believed the Baha’i teachings and theology of progressive revelation were reasonable and that is why I became a Baha’i many decades ago. I did not think much about God back then, although I believed God existed since that was part of the beliefs. However, I had no mushy gushy feelings about God or any Messengers of God and I still don’t.

However, whenever God is involved there has to be an element of faith, since there is no objective proof that God exists. That does not mean it cannot be a reasonable faith, if it was acquired by reason instead of emotion.

If you made a bad decision once based upon religious faith that is kind of like someone who made a mistake and married the wrong person so decided not to marry again... I know a couple of guys like that. I never had any religion before I became a Baha’i, so I had no confirmation bias going in. I was an agnostic who never saw the inside of a church and I was not even looking for a religion or for God...

Trailblazer said: I'd say that the safest course of action is to lead an upright life as best you understand that to be and keep your mind open to the idea that God might exist and God might have a revealed a religion that is actually in accord with reason.

That doesn't sound very different from what I wrote. Specifically, be kind, considerate, honest, grateful, dependable, industrious, etc., and keep an open mind. Accumulate the ideas that work and tweak or discard those that don't, and be satisfied with what you need. With some luck, like not being crippled in an accident, or being born into an abusive family or a war-torn part of the world, one should have a satisfying life.

As I recall, you have been lucky in life; not all of us have been that fortunate. It is much easier to have a positive attitude when most of your life has been positive. There is an upside to that and a downside. The upside is that you can be more useful to others because the strong lean on the weak, that is a law of nature and a Baha’i belief. The downside is that since you have been everything you need, you will have less of a tendency to be searching for God, but at least you keep your mind open. The other downside to having not suffered that much is that if a tragedy does occur, accident or an illness, you are less prepared to deal with it due to lack of experience.