Isn't it better to be atheists?

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: How would God show Himself?

To an OmniMAX? It ought to be one of the Simplest Of Things-- but... appparently this is just too much:

Nope, it is not too much, it is just not what God wants to do... An omnipotent God only does what it wants to do, which is not everything it CAN DO.

Trailblazer said: I have one passage that explains what might happen if God actually did that, and it ain’t pretty.

So this "god" of your is so monsterious and weak? It cannot manage to dial back it's evil nature?

Okay. that's not very good, and it's kinda weak in fact...

What you and those like you do not understand is that humans do not dictate how an ALMIGHTY GOD should reveal itself to humans... that is backwards logic. No, it is God that decides, since God is the ALMIGHTY ONE.

This is the whole ball of wax...

<holey book redacted unread... no proof it's anything but human ravings>

No proof, but plenty of evidence...

Trailblazer said: So, what I hear you saying is that if God does not just show up God does not care so why bother with Him. What I hear you saying is that for God to use Messengers is to play favorites.

I do not consider that moral or unfair because I know the reason God uses them and it is for our own good.... I certainly would not want to hear from God directly and get blown away by His power...

Once again? Super evil or super weak or both? Not very impressed by your version of god, here.

Seriously. Your version of god sounds more like Voldemort, who's name cannot be said or some such crapola.

This isn't good. And you are getting even less convincing by the paragraph.

You want a God that does what you want... Hint: Any God that kowtows to humans is not a God at all.

Trailblazer said: What is insufficient to you is sufficient for about 93% of the world population who believe in God. I will let you do the math on that...

1) mass brainwashing-- brainwashed parents infect their defenseless children, and so on and so on.
2) argument from popularity logical fallacy--

--- not all THAT long ago, everyone just knew the world was flat. Not long ago, everyone just knew, the world was the center of the universe.

People are ignorant, and happy to remain so. Proof? 93% of the world still believes in Magical Wish-Granting Sky Fairies, even though *none* of their wishes are ever actually granted!

I am sorry to say but you are completely illogical and emotional. If 93% of the world population were ignorant then the world would cease to function at all.

You want to make them wrong so you can be right, but that does not work. It is better just to say you disagree about God existing and leave it at that. Nobody can prove that God exists so it is just apples and oranges.

Trailblazer said: Yes, you must believe first based upon the evidence, and then after that you actually know that what you believe is true because of the evidence... One first believes and then they strongly believe and then after that they know in their own mind that God exists.... this is a process for most people, not an overnight thing.

You got that right-- and there ain't any..... evidence I mean. None. Nada. Nix. Zip. Null-set. Zero. People's personal Feelings are not evidence of anything except that they felt something.

What'ya know? You can evoke strong emotions from .... Movies. And Romance Novels. From fiction. Feelings prove zip.

You mean nothing that is evidence TO YOU. But that does not mean there is no evidence. There is enough evidence for my religion to sink a ship.

You want proof that God exists but you are not going to get any because God does not provide proof, only evidence.

Trailblazer said: I never implied that you have to have blind faith; all faith should be well-informed, based upon evidence... I do not believe in faith without reason. That would be akin to false hope, like that child in the hospital.

Since there ain't any actual evidence? Blind faith is all you got, here.

And you know there is no evidence exactly HOW? Have you even looked at what I have?

You said so yourself: First you have to believe-- then you look for "evidence".

Sorry, but that is a Logical Fallacy: Cognitive Bias.

I never said that. I said you believe based upon the evidence. How could you believe with no evidence? That would be blind faith.

I said: “Yes, you must believe first based upon the evidence, and then after that you actually know that what you believe is true because of the evidence... One first believes and then they strongly believe and then after that they know in their own mind that God exists.... this is a process for most people, not an overnight thing.”

 

[shmogie]

I am curious how you progressed from an atheist to an agnostic to a Christian...

Answer that only if you feel comfortable doing so..

No problem. The progression started because new found interest in philosophy and logic , coupled with life long interests in biology and astronomy. Philosophy posed a lot of questions, hundreds, maybe thousands about the human condition, like WHY are we here, instead of HOW we are here. Or WHY is there something rather than nothing not HOW there is something other than nothing. It compelled me to seriously consider the possibility that humans are more than the sum total of being well evolved animals, that humans have esoteric qualities that have no purpose in evolution. As an example, what possible evolutionary/survival purpose is served by wasting time on questions like " why are we here ?". Granted, many do not consider this, but many do, and for all the wasted thought thinking about this question, they survive just as well.

Logic is not what most people believe it is. It is a discipline of thought, a discipline with rules. What many people propose as logical ( usually to say my opinion is better than yours) by the rules of logic, isn't logical at all !

I applied these disciplines to my education and practical experience in biology. My education isn't great, just under grad courses, but I read a lot. My practical experience is pretty good. I began seriously learning about ants at seven, and was doing field research in my teens. I eagerly pursued other entomological interests. my general interest in biology lead me to have an extensive live snake collection, and a living tarantula collection imported from throughout the world ( they are now mostly bred in this country). In my time as hobby's I have raised goats, show rabbits, kept birds, chicken's, exotic lizards, have never been without tropical fish aquariums for 55 years. Astronomy is another hobby that I have pursued diligently, which led me to cosmology.

I applied philosophy and logic to what I had been dogmatically taught about evolution, abiogenesis, the universe et. al. I discovered that there were other possibilities that I was never taught, and numerous errors in what I had been taught. I came to believe in what is now called intelligent design. The idea that the precision in who and what we are and what is around us and how it all functions to me became illogical for me to think is the result of totally blind chance at impossibly high odds, with the qualifier, time, improving the odds.

I began to look for a possible designer. I considered gods, and found that virtually all religions are about what one can do to please and find favor with their god/s, and thus become acceptable. Christianity on the other hand is about what God has done for us, and that there is nothing we can do to be acceptable to him. He gives us His acceptance as a gift., that we can accept, or reject as we choose. Further, Christianity thought and theology logically supports strongly what is seen in biology and cosmology, physics, and astronomy..

My philosophical questions were answered and I logically became a Christian !

This, in a nutshell is the answer to your question. There were many starts, stops, disasters and doubts along the way.

I WILL NOT debate what is here, it applies to me and my search, and if others have other views, that's fine. The answer to your question was prompted by your question, and I have no objection to answering it. To anyone who wants to argue with me about it, tough, it ain't happening.

 

[shmogie]

Nope, it is not too much, it is just not what God wants to do... An omnipotent God only does what it wants to do, which is not everything it CAN DO.

What you and those like you do not understand is that humans do not dictate how an ALMIGHTY GOD should reveal itself to humans... that is backwards logic. No, it is God that decides, since God is the ALMIGHTY ONE.

This is the whole ball of wax...

No proof, but plenty of evidence...

You want a God that does what you want... Hint: Any God that kowtows to humans is not a God at all.

I am sorry to say but you are completely illogical and emotional. If 93% of the world population were ignorant then the world would cease to function at all.

You want to make them wrong so you can be right, but that does not work. It is better just to say you disagree about God existing and leave it at that. Nobody can prove that God exists so it is just apples and oranges.

You mean nothing that is evidence TO YOU. But that does not mean there is no evidence. There is enough evidence for my religion to sink a ship.

You want proof that God exists but you are not going to get any because God does not provide proof, only evidence.

And you know there is no evidence exactly HOW? Have you even looked at what I have?

I never said that. I said you believe based upon the evidence. How could you believe with no evidence? That would be blind faith.

I said: “Yes, you must believe first based upon the evidence, and then after that you actually know that what you believe is true because of the evidence... One first believes and then they strongly believe and then after that they know in their own mind that God exists.... this is a process for most people, not an overnight thing.”

If one has a total distorted opinion based on their own supposed superior reasoning they will purposely not see evidence that might find their reasoning to be faulty. So some because of their self supposed superiority refuse to address specific evidence that invalidates their opinions, they simply use illogical logic and sarcasm to hold themselves up, sad.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Nope, it is not too much, it is just not what God wants to do... An omnipotent God only does what it wants to do, which is not everything it CAN DO.

So we are back to a god deliberately and with malice, refusing to be Godly. Meaning such a Beast is not worthy of the title.

Such a beast is unworthy of worship, and certainly unworthy of acknowledgement.

What you and those like you do not understand is that humans do not dictate how an ALMIGHTY GOD should reveal itself to humans... that is backwards logic. No, it is God that decides, since God is the ALMIGHTY ONE.

This is the whole ball of wax...

See above. Beast, at best. Unworthy.

No proof, but plenty of evidence...

Nope. Or there never - EVER would be atheists. Or disbelievers. Or even agnostics.

So nope. NOT "plenty of evidence". Not even close.

You want a God that does what you want... Hint: Any God that kowtows to humans is not a God at all.

A monstrous bully is what you have described so far.

Might does NOT make Right-- you seem to have forgotten that.

I am sorry to say but you are completely illogical and emotional. If 93% of the world population were ignorant then the world would cease to function at all.

Just because you refuse to understand what a Logical Fallacy is? Doesn't make it NOT a Logical Fallacy.

Argument from Popularity is not an argument. Not that long ago? The world just "knew" that the sun went around it.

DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. This is YOU being emotional, not I.

Appeal to Popularity IS an emotional appeal after all.

You want to make them wrong so you can be right, but that does not work. It is better just to say you disagree about God existing and leave it at that. Nobody can prove that God exists so it is just apples and oranges.

Actually? Once you define which of the 1000's of gods invented so far? It's pretty easy to prove specific god-claims false.

Yours, for example, have been pretty well refuted so far, in spite of your empty protestations to the contrary.

You mean nothing that is evidence TO YOU. But that does not mean there is no evidence. There is enough evidence for my religion to sink a ship.

Logical Fallacy. You have failed to provide proof-- so your claim is dismissed for lack of proof. IF YOU HAD ACTUAL EVIDENCE?

You would PRESENT IT, instead of this attempt insult the messenger: A Logical Fallacy.

You want proof that God exists but you are not going to get any because God does not provide proof, only evidence.

False. There is no evidence -- if there were? There would be no agnostics, no atheists, no non-believers. That is actually how this works. Your continuing attempt to Shift The Burden, and to Shoot The Messenger are both Logical Fallacies.

And you know there is no evidence exactly HOW? Have you even looked at what I have?

See above.

I said: “Yes, you must believe first based upon the evidence, and then after that you actually know that what you believe is true because of the evidence... One first believes and then they strongly believe and then after that they know in their own mind that God exists.... this is a process for most people, not an overnight thing.”

What I said remains un-refuted: You just described Blind Faith once again.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

it seems highly unlikely that there are multiple gods; it is more likely that there is no god at all.

I don't know how to make to such a judgment. The only guidance I have is that there seems to be a multitude of everything that exists, There is more than one person and dog on earth, more than one planet, more than one star, and more than one galaxy.

Can this pattern be extrapolated to the level of universes, multiverses, and gods? Not reliably in my estimation. But if there can be one god, why can there not be others according to the same principles that allow the one?

Anyway, I'm not willing to guess which of these is more likely - no gods, one god, or many gods. It would just be an uniformed guess on my part based on very little.

Okay, let’s follow that through.... If there is One True God and you chose to believe in a false god it is logically possible you could be punished for that... and if the God has all power and reincarnation is what that god does then you could be turned into a maggot, and that is worse than dying and there being nothing.

Yes. Correct. That's part of the refutation of the claim that there can be no possible bad result from entertaining a false god belief.

If what is unequivocal for you is God manifesting His Essence on earth, you should read what I posted to Bob the Unbeliever regarding what would happen if God showed up: #154 Trailblazer, Today at 7:12 PM

I did read it. I considered it a religious (faith based) speculation - a claim of fact not supported by evidence. I see no reason why an omni god cannot manifest itself to humanity without destroying it.

Baha’is believe that we are to be connected to this world, as you said. Our primary focus is our life is this world, making this world a better place for everyone.

That is a better perspective than the Christian version that says to remain aloof from our common world.

Wow, I never would have expected you to say that.... sounds rather mystical from Mr. Practical

Mr. Practical? LOL. Like many others, I have a spiritual nature. There are moments when I gasp at the realization of what we have and what we are, just like the religious, who often attribute it to god. The experience is probably familiar to most of us - a sense of mystery as you imply, with an added sense of awe, gratitude, and as discussed earlier, connection to our universe, planet, and local world.

The difference is that I don't inject a god into that, and won't until I have a reason to do so.

whenever God is involved there has to be an element of faith, since there is no objective proof that God exists.

Agreed.

And I've explained what I think faith is, and why it;s not a mode of thought that I will turn to to discern what is true.

As I recall, you have been lucky in life; not all of us have been that fortunate. It is much easier to have a positive attitude when most of your life has been positive.

Yes, I have been lucky, and freely acknowledge such. I could not have had a good life without the help of good people that came before me, including good parents, a government that provided me economic and academic opportunity, and multiple accidents of birth.

since you have been everything you need, you will have less of a tendency to be searching for God

Agree. There are more conversions on Death Row and Skid Row than on Restaurant Row. There is more religiosity in the parts of the world where education is harder to come by, and life cheap and tenuous.

 

[1213]

...So I think it's better to be atheists...rather than exploring religions randomly...because they won't give you the answers you seek.

I agree, don’t do anything randomly. But I would like to know, what answers are you seeking? Isn’t atheism already answer that no God exists?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If one has a total distorted opinion based on their own supposed superior reasoning they will purposely not see evidence that might find their reasoning to be faulty.

So it's the people who use reason applied to evidence as their only method of deciding what is true that are mistaken, and those that believe by faith that are actually interpreting the available evidence properly when they choose to consult evidence? Faith based thinkers are better at reasonng than rational skeptics?

 

[shmogie]

So it's the people who use reason applied to evidence as their only method of deciding what is true that are mistaken, and those that believe by faith that are actually interpreting the available evidence properly when they choose to consult evidence? Faith based thinkers are better at reasonng than rational skeptics?

This was directed to a specific poster in response to his specific interplay with another poster, I don´t name names, but both know what the post was about. I gave specific qualities to a particular type of skeptic. If you share those qualities please accept that the post applies to you as well, if you don´t, then it wasn´t intended to apply to you. I respect and don´t disparage people who honestly and objectively study the evidence and come to a different conclusion than me. I have disdain for those who arrogantly bring bias´s and personal agendaś to the discussion and pontificate, regardless of what side of the issue they are on. The I know absolutely and let me pound on you for a while with my opinion, innuendo, and sarcasm to prove it person be he theist or atheist gets no respect from me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I began to look for a possible designer. I considered gods, and found that virtually all religions are about what one can do to please and find favor with their god/s, and thus become acceptable. Christianity on the other hand is about what God has done for us, and that there is nothing we can do to be acceptable to him. He gives us His acceptance as a gift., that we can accept, or reject as we choose. Further, Christianity thought and theology logically supports strongly what is seen in biology and cosmology, physics, and astronomy.

Thanks for sharing your personal story.

I do not want to argue with anyone. I just want to say a few things about my own progression from agnostic to believer and a few things about what I believe.

I was not searching for God at all before I became a Baha’i. I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith when I was 17 years old, in my first year in college. I accepted it as God’s Truth within two weeks, after reading most of the scriptures (what we refer to as “the Writings”) that had been translated into English at that time. The reason I believed it was true was because of the teachings, spiritual and social, not because of God. I did not care much about God back then as I was so young. I knew that God existed but I never had much faith and I did not like God all that much. I had also “fallen away” from the Baha’i Faith for many decades for personal reasons.

About five years ago I decided I wanted to make peace with God and get more involved in my religion. I came to a forum called Planet Baha’i and then I branched off onto other forums. I learned a lot about my religion that I had never known or that I had forgotten, and I also learned a lot about other religions, mainly Christianity.

I believe that Jesus sacrificed His life for God and humanity but I do not believe in it the same way Christians do. In brief, I do not believe in original sin and that Jesus removed sin by dying on the cross. I believe we are all born as a clean slate and we have two natures, a lower materialistic selfish nature (sinful nature) and a higher noble spiritual nature. We have free will so we can choose to act according to either nature. The teachings of Jesus enabled us to live according to our higher nature and the cross sacrifice was a way to demonstrate self denial, which is the crux of living a Godly life.

I do not believe that there is nothing we can do to be acceptable to God, and in fact I believe that deeds are of the upmost importance in God’s eyes. Belief is also very important, belief in God through the Manifestation of God sent by God for the age we live in. I do not believe in the Free Gift. I believe that good deeds and following the teachings and Laws revealed by God are also necessary.

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location but rather it is nearness to God Someone once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith how to get to heaven, and below was His answer.

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[Trailblazer]

If one has a total distorted opinion based on their own supposed superior reasoning they will purposely not see evidence that might find their reasoning to be faulty. So some because of their self supposed superiority refuse to address specific evidence that invalidates their opinions, they simply use illogical logic and sarcasm to hold themselves up, sad.

In seeking God one must put aside all acquired knowledge and all attachments to what one wants; one must put aside both love and hate; one must wash away both pride and vain-glory; and one must cling to patience.

These are some of the requirements of the True Seeker.

Tablet of the True Seeker

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Nope, it is not too much, it is just not what God wants to do... An omnipotent God only does what it wants to do, which is not everything it CAN DO.

So we are back to a god deliberately and with malice, refusing to be Godly. Meaning such a Beast is not worthy of the title.
Such a beast is unworthy of worship, and certainly unworthy of acknowledgement.

You mean if it refuses to do what you want it to do it is not worthy of worship.

Any God that did what humans wanted it to do would not be acting Godly.

Trailblazer said: What you and those like you do not understand is that humans do not dictate how an ALMIGHTY GOD should reveal itself to humans... that is backwards logic. No, it is God that decides, since God is the ALMIGHTY ONE.

This is the whole ball of wax...

See above. Beast, at best. Unworthy.

See above. It is a Beast to you because it won’t do what you want it to do.

Trailblazer said: No proof, but plenty of evidence...

Nope. Or there never - EVER would be atheists. Or disbelievers. Or even agnostics.
So nope. NOT "plenty of evidence". Not even close.

That argument does not fly because most people do not even LOOK at the evidence, and even if they do they look with confirmation bias.

 

[shmogie]

Thanks for sharing your personal story.

I do not want to argue with anyone. I just want to say a few things about my own progression from agnostic to believer and a few things about what I believe.

I was not searching for God at all before I became a Baha’i. I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith when I was 17 years old, in my first year in college. I accepted it as God’s Truth within two weeks, after reading most of the scriptures (what we refer to as “the Writings”) that had been translated into English at that time. The reason I believed it was true was because of the teachings, spiritual and social, not because of God. I did not care much about God back then as I was so young. I knew that God existed but I never had much faith and I did not like God all that much. I had also “fallen away” from the Baha’i Faith for many decades for personal reasons.

About five years ago I decided I wanted to make peace with God and get more involved in my religion. I came to a forum called Planet Baha’i and then I branched off onto other forums. I learned a lot about my religion that I had never known or that I had forgotten, and I also learned a lot about other religions, mainly Christianity.

I believe that Jesus sacrificed His life for God and humanity but I do not believe in it the same way Christians do. In brief, I do not believe in original sin and that Jesus removed sin by dying on the cross. I believe we are all born as a clean slate and we have two natures, a lower materialistic selfish nature (sinful nature) and a higher noble spiritual nature. We have free will so we can choose to act according to either nature. The teachings of Jesus enabled us to live according to our higher nature and the cross sacrifice was a way to demonstrate self denial, which is the crux of living a Godly life.

I do not believe that there is nothing we can do to be acceptable to God, and in fact I believe that deeds are of the upmost importance in God’s eyes. Belief is also very important, belief in God through the Manifestation of God sent by God for the age we live in. I do not believe in the Free Gift. I believe that good deeds and following the teachings and Laws revealed by God are also necessary.

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location but rather it is nearness to God Someone once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith how to get to heaven, and below was His answer.

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

Thank you for what we Christians call your testimony, please accept my condolences for the deaths of those Bhai's being slaughtered for their faith in the same country's where Christian's are being slaughtered for the same reason.

Christians do not believe in a sliding scale of good and evil. We believe God is perfectly good and there is an intelligent antithesis To God, perfect evil. There is no middle ground.

Original sin exists because of the total free will given to man in his original, intended state, perfection. Free will was created by God so that these created beings could be free to choose, so that their service to him is not compelled by being the only choice possible. Evil created itself from this freedom of choice.

Once mankind chose evil, mankind in and of itself could never be perfect again. In perfection, humanity had no concept of either good or evil, they were perfect, without that knowledge. They were inherently and totally good, without even knowing it, the original sin is when humanity chose to obtain this knowledge by use of it';s free will. From then on humans, except for children or those not capable of understanding, gain this knowledge, and are imperfect and unacceptable to God, they cannot avoid doing or thinking at some point evil, the instant they do, their imperfection is manifest. God is perfectly loving perfectly just. The original disobedience in us had to receive what was warned, ultimate death. Perfect justice. God provided a way where this sentence was carried out for every person on earth by proxy in the human life of Jesus Christ, one of the three consicences of God, that we refer to, for lack of the proper term, as the Son of God. He lived a perfect life, which we can never do, he was totally perfect in heart mind and spirit, which as fallen humans we can never be, he took upon himself the punishment we deserve for our imperfection, he stands in our place when we are judged. We can do great things for God, and appear Godly, but we will never meet the perfect standard he requires for his acceptance, 0ur life has tainted us. So, by acknowledging our imperfections( we say sinful), recognizing we made unacceptable choices, and accepting this free Gift of God, we can have what Christ deserves, by his accepting what we deserve. Perfect justice In the judgement, and in our life we are seen by God as perfect, not for what we do but by what he did. We then can move on in loving kindness and good deeds, knowing that when we slip and err that shield of Christ covers us. We can walk away from this gift, we can have cherished, habitual sins that as a result God must withdraw that shield, but it is always by our choice, not His.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Isn’t atheism already answer that no God exists?

No. It is simply a rejection of all the unsupported and non-evidence claims.

All that atheists ask of theists is for them to prove it, without first jumping to unfounded "conclusions" (faith)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You mean if it refuses to do what you want it to do it is not worthy of worship.

Any God that did what humans wanted it to do would not be acting Godly.

No- I expect a god to have morals that are AT LEAST AS GOOD as a mere humans.

I can observe the world around me? And I see that if there IS a god? --it is grossly negligent and immoral-- as compared to mere humans.

That is the opposite of "godly". The existence of god-preventable evil is all the proof you need that if there IS a god?

It is far from good-- or it is simply indifferent (which is still evil, for neglect).

See above. It is a Beast to you because it won’t do what you want it to do.

Nope. Projection of your beliefs, and StrawMan Logical fallacy. That isn't what I said.

That argument does not fly because most people do not even LOOK at the evidence, and even if they do they look with confirmation bias.

You have failed to refute the observation that your "argument" that "93% of the world believes--- why don't you" is a Logical Fallacy-- argument from popularity.

The fact that most of the world ignores that THERE IS NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE doesn't matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: it seems highly unlikely that there are multiple gods; it is more likely that there is no god at all.

I don't know how to make to such a judgment. The only guidance I have is that there seems to be a multitude of everything that exists, There is more than one person and dog on earth, more than one planet, more than one star, and more than one galaxy.

Can this pattern be extrapolated to the level of universes, multiverses, and gods? Not reliably in my estimation. But if there can be one god, why can there not be others according to the same principles that allow the one?

All I can say is that it makes no sense that there would be more than one God if God is omnipotent and omniscient as I believe, because there would be no need for more than one God like that so it would make no sense to have more than one. Any God that was not omnipotent and omniscient is not worthy of belief and worship; one might just as well believe in and worship a human.

Anyway, I'm not willing to guess which of these is more likely - no gods, one god, or many gods. It would just be an uniformed guess on my part based on very little.

It is never good to guess on things this important. That is why God sends a Messenger with a message, so we won’t have to guess.

Trailblazer said: Okay, let’s follow that through.... If there is One True God and you chose to believe in a false god it is logically possible you could be punished for that... and if the God has all power and reincarnation is what that god does then you could be turned into a maggot, and that is worse than dying and there being nothing.

Yes. Correct. That's part of the refutation of the claim that there can be no possible bad result from entertaining a false god belief.

However, since you are the king of likelihoods, you might want to ask yourself how likely it is that there is an unjust God like that. It is more likely that you would simply not go to heaven or hell, but somewhere in between, and that you would be able to work your way to heaven eventually.

Trailblazer said: If what is unequivocal for you is God manifesting His Essence on earth, you should read what I posted to Bob the Unbeliever regarding what would happen if God showed up: #154 Trailblazer, Today at 7:12 PM

I did read it. I considered it a religious (faith based) speculation - a claim of fact not supported by evidence. I see no reason why an omni god cannot manifest itself to humanity without destroying it.

Since none of us can ever know the Essence of God, we cannot know why it would blow us away if it actually materialized, but that is moot because we are told that the Essence of God cannot materialize, and that is why God manifests Himself in the form of a man that we can get information from; since He is a hybrid, a God-man who has qualities of both God and man He is able to me a mediator between God and man. That makes sense to me and that is why I believe it. Unlike the way most Christians relate to Jesus, I have no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah. I just believe He brought a message that is valuable for individuals and humanity, so I like the message.

All we know is what is revealed to the Messenger. I think I probably misinterpreted that passage. The main point of that passage is that even if God could reveal Himself in an unequivocal manner God would not want to because then it would be obvious to everyone, so the Godly could not be differentiated from the godly.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

That passage is related to the following passage:

“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen… ”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

In that passage, “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people” means that God could have revealed Himself in some way such that everyone would know He exists. In that passage, “ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean” means using your reason (innate powers) to determine if God exists. God wants everyone to search for Him and determine that He exists by using their own reason. God also wants us to have faith, and that is why God does not offer unequivocal proof of His existence. Those who have faith are rewarded.

Trailblazer said: Wow, I never would have expected you to say that.... sounds rather mystical from Mr. Practical

Mr. Practical? LOL. Like many others, I have a spiritual nature. There are moments when I gasp at the realization of what we have and what we are, just like the religious, who often attribute it to god. The experience is probably familiar to most of us - a sense of mystery as you imply, with an added sense of awe, gratitude, and as discussed earlier, connection to our universe, planet, and local world.

The difference is that I don't inject a god into that, and won't until I have a reason to do so.

I did not mean to imply that you do not have a spiritual nature. All humans have that whether they believe in God or not. I just do not recall having seen this side of you before, because you were so analytical and logical. I am also analytical and logical but I can be spiritual, although I do not normally get emotional about it unless I am really touched by something, like some of the awesome u-tube videos Baha’is make. I am very much affected by visual and audio, and also by certain scriptures.

Trailblazer said: whenever God is involved there has to be an element of faith, since there is no objective proof that God exists.

Agreed.

And I've explained what I think faith is, and why it;s not a mode of thought that I will turn to to discern what is true.

I guess you mean because you got burned by it before. I have posted to more nonbelievers than believers over the past five years, and most were formerly Christians. So even though I do not have personal experience, I can understand how they feel and why since I listen and psychology is my other hat. There is a lot of prejudice and confirmation bias towards religion because of Christianity.

Trailblazer said: since you have been everything you need, you will have less of a tendency to be searching for God

Agree. There are more conversions on Death Row and Skid Row than on Restaurant Row. There is more religiosity in the parts of the world where education is harder to come by, and life cheap and tenuous.

Just off the cuff, I do not consider religiosity to be the same as spirituality, and I see belief in God as a separate category. I mean one can be religious and not spiritual or they can be spiritual and not religious; they can be spiritual without belief in God or they can believe in God and be spiritual but not religious. I do think that true belief in God carries with it spirituality, although it is not a requirement for spirituality.

An agnostic is just someone who does not know if God/gods exists, and an atheist is someone who believes that no gods exist. This is normally because of lack of evidence, although some agnostics and atheists I know are too angry at the God they used to believe in to even look at any new evidence.

Believers, who make any more out of that than there is, calling atheists immoral, etc. are just ignorant, and these are normally Christians. However, it is refreshing to know that not all Christians are that way, as I have seen on this forum.

There are two Christians on the other forum I still post on and both of them regularly condemn me to hell because I am a Baha’i. There are many atheists and agnostics on that forum, and I always gravitate towards them, because I consider them much more moral than Christians who damn everyone else to hell. I kind of pity them for having those beliefs because I see them as victims of the Church, while at the same time I realize that they are responsible for those beliefs because they have free will.

One man I particularly like is an atheist and a homosexual and one Christian calls him immoral, but when I have confronted him with the fact that most Christians do not adhere to their own religious injunctions not to have sex out of wedlock, he has nothing to say. I consider that hypocrisy and Jesus hated hypocrisy.

 

[shmogie]

You mean if it refuses to do what you want it to do it is not worthy of worship.

Any God that did what humans wanted it to do would not be acting Godly.

See above. It is a Beast to you because it won’t do what you want it to do.

That argument does not fly because most people do not even LOOK at the evidence, and even if they do they look with confirmation bias.

For what is worth, I have been in countless discussions like this with atheists over the years. Some, the less mature and less knowledgeable ones, will resort to ad hominem attacks when they learn that there pet scientific theories can be cast into more doubt than they imagined, because of diligent study. Others, more mature and self confident offer cogent arguments and interesting exchanges, but the bottom line is that they don´t change their position, and neither do you. Many crash into theological discussions expressly to guide them into there is/is not a God, or in the case of the worst ones, to harass and ridicule. For me, these discussions offer no satisfaction or purpose, I now avoid them, and stick to theological discussions. Kudoś to you for sticking with it, presenting your particular truth clearly and patiently. Good luck !

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: You mean if it refuses to do what you want it to do it is not worthy of worship.

Any God that did what humans wanted it to do would not be acting Godly.

No- I expect a god to have morals that are AT LEAST AS GOOD as a mere humans.

God is not SUBJECT to morality because morality is a human quality. God sets the standard for morality in humans. God is not a human so God is not subject to morality.

I can observe the world around me? And I see that if there IS a god? --it is grossly negligent and immoral-- as compared to mere humans.

That is the opposite of "godly". The existence of god-preventable evil is all the proof you need that if there IS a god?

It is far from good-- or it is simply indifferent (which is still evil, for neglect).

What do you SEE God doing, or is it what you expect God to be doing and you do not see God doings that is responsible for what you conclude?

What do you think God should be doing and why do you think God should be doing anything? God gave humans free will so they could do what needs to get done. If things go awry, it is the humans that are responsible, not God.

Why should God prevent evil, just because God is omnipotent? How exactly would that play out? Should God prevent all evil in the world, or just some of it, and how would God choose what to prevent? Then would those evil people not be responsible for their evil intentions and not be punished?

How do you know God is indifferent, just because you do not SEE God doing anything? How do you know that when good things happen God did not have a hand in it? Maybe that good person was a believer who reached out to God and God helped him be good.

Don’t you see that there are lots of possibilities other than the simple picture you have painted?

Trailblazer said: See above. It is a Beast to you because it won’t do what you want it to do.

Nope. Projection of your beliefs, and StrawMan Logical fallacy. That isn't what I said.

No, that cannot be a projection of what I believe because I do not expect God to do anything at all. God doeth whatsoever He willeth. I have accepted that as it goes with belief.

If that is not what you said then why is God a Beast?

Trailblazer said: That argument does not fly because most people do not even LOOK at the evidence, and even if they do they look with confirmation bias.

You have failed to refute the observation that your "argument" that "93% of the world believes--- why don't you" is a Logical Fallacy-- argument from popularity.

That is a straw man. I never said you should believe because 93% of people believe in God.

That is also a red herring because you changed the subject and interjected something I said many posts ago.

• Trailblazer said: No proof, but plenty of evidence...
• Bob the Unbeliever said: Nope. Or there never - EVER would be atheists. Or disbelievers. Or even agnostics.
• Trailblazer said: That argument does not fly because most people do not even LOOK at the evidence, and even if they do they look with confirmation bias.

There IS evidence, but if atheists and agnostics did not LOOK at the evidence for God how could they ever believe in God?

So nope. NOT "plenty of evidence". Not even close.

The fact that most of the world ignores that THERE IS NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE doesn't matter.

It does matter if there is evidence.

How can you possibly know that if you never LOOKED? That is like me saying there is no food in the fridge when I never even opened the door.

You do not deserve to know if God exists if you won’t even look at the evidence God provides anymore than you deserve food if you are not willing to go and get it from the fridge... If after you open the door and you do not like the food you find in there then you can complain, but not before.

 

[Trailblazer]

For what is worth, I have been in countless discussions like this with atheists over the years. Some, the less mature and less knowledgeable ones, will resort to ad hominem attacks when they learn that there pet scientific theories can be cast into more doubt than they imagined, because of diligent study. Others, more mature and self confident offer cogent arguments and interesting exchanges, but the bottom line is that they don´t change their position, and neither do you. Many crash into theological discussions expressly to guide them into there is/is not a God, or in the case of the worst ones, to harass and ridicule. For me, these discussions offer no satisfaction or purpose, I now avoid them, and stick to theological discussions. Kudoś to you for sticking with it, presenting your particular truth clearly and patiently. Good luck !

Yes, I know exactly what you are saying as I have been posting to nonbelievers more than to believers for about five years. You would think I would be tired of the same old, same old, but I have found that on this forum there are some new perspectives and more open-minded nonbelievers and I can learn new things from some of them. Bob is similar to most I have conversed with elsewhere, so I have loads of practice. It is pretty easy to respond to these arguments about the evil do-nothing God since of course believers know who God really is...

The way I see it, nonbelievers are flying blind because they have no scriptures to refer to, so they imagine all kinds of things. Scriptures are the only way to know anything about God... Anything else is a shot in the dark at best and pure imagination at worst. One thing that drives me the craziest is when they say that God is subject to logic.

Thanks for the Kudos. I never try to guess motives of anyone on forums, I just respond until I come to the end of the road. Only God can really know what is in the mind and heart of anyone and God knows that better than we can ever know it. All I can do is hope I have the right motives.

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for what we Christians call your testimony, please accept my condolences for the deaths of those Bhai's being slaughtered for their faith in the same country's where Christian's are being slaughtered for the same reason.

Christians do not believe in a sliding scale of good and evil. We believe God is perfectly good and there is an intelligent antithesis To God, perfect evil. There is no middle ground.

Baha’is also believe that God is perfectly good but God is also just and God thus has wrath.

Baha’is do not believe in a “being” called Satan and we do not believe that evil has any real existence but rather evil is the absence of good: 74: THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

Original sin exists because of the total free will given to man in his original, intended state, perfection. Free will was created by God so that these created beings could be free to choose, so that their service to him is not compelled by being the only choice possible. Evil created itself from this freedom of choice.

Once mankind chose evil, mankind in and of itself could never be perfect again. In perfection, humanity had no concept of either good or evil, they were perfect, without that knowledge. They were inherently and totally good, without even knowing it, the original sin is when humanity chose to obtain this knowledge by use of it';s free will. From then on humans, except for children or those not capable of understanding, gain this knowledge, and are imperfect and unacceptable to God, they cannot avoid doing or thinking at some point evil, the instant they do, their imperfection is manifest. God is perfectly loving perfectly just. The original disobedience in us had to receive what was warned, ultimate death. Perfect justice. God provided a way where this sentence was carried out for every person on earth by proxy in the human life of Jesus Christ, one of the three consicences of God, that we refer to, for lack of the proper term, as the Son of God. He lived a perfect life, which we can never do, he was totally perfect in heart mind and spirit, which as fallen humans we can never be, he took upon himself the punishment we deserve for our imperfection, he stands in our place when we are judged. We can do great things for God, and appear Godly, but we will never meet the perfect standard he requires for his acceptance, 0ur life has tainted us. So, by acknowledging our imperfections( we say sinful), recognizing we made unacceptable choices, and accepting this free Gift of God, we can have what Christ deserves, by his accepting what we deserve. Perfect justice In the judgement, and in our life we are seen by God as perfect, not for what we do but by what he did. We then can move on in loving kindness and good deeds, knowing that when we slip and err that shield of Christ covers us. We can walk away from this gift, we can have cherished, habitual sins that as a result God must withdraw that shield, but it is always by our choice, not His.

Thanks for sharing all of that. Besides my nonbelievers I mostly post to Christians on forums so I know the basic Christians beliefs. Baha’is do not believe in original sin in that we do not believe that all of posterity inherited the sins of Adam and Eve, because Eve ate the apple. Rather we believe that Adam was a Prophet of God who came from heaven into the material world. Adam passed from the spiritual world of freedom into the material world of bondage, and Adam’s descendants continued in bondage, which is attachment to the material world.

“For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 124-125

The excerpt below explains what Jesus did by virtue of His teachings and cross sacrifice to remove that bondage and attachment to the material world which constitutes sin:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
Some Answered Questions, p. 125

This chapter explains one interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Baha’is do not believe we are born in sin but rather that we are born with two natures; we have a propensity to sin, or we can turn towards God and reflect the attributes of God.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.”
Paris Talks, p. 60

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God is not SUBJECT to morality because morality is a human quality. God sets the standard for morality in humans. God is not a human so God is not subject to morality.

Basically, your statement above boils down to: Might Makes Right.

Or in other words? If God Wants To Murder All The Blue-Eyed Babies, He Can, Because He Can.

And silly followers would still call that massacre .... "good"... !!!

Do you see why I reject all god claims yet? The god they present is pure EVIL-- it cannot even measure up to a mamma BEAR, let alone the moral standards of a modern, enlightened humanist.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

There IS evidence, ....

No. There is not-- if there were actual, genuine, objective evidence?

Three would be no outspoken atheists, for they would be shouted down with the actual evidence...

... which you have had ample opportunity to present, and failed to do so every time.

What theists call "evidence"? Everyone else calls "hearsay" or "gossip" or "feelings" or worse ...

... you keep using the word "evidence" ... but I don't think it means what you think it means...