Israel attacks prayers in the Aqsa

[Comprehend]

Comprehend, you have referred to the Palestinian use of children as bombers a couple of time now. Bear in mind that Israeli fighters, soldiers, tanks, warships have killed many more Palestinian children! And if Palestine had the backing of a country like America, they wouldn't need to use such drastic counter measures. This idea that Israel is the epitome of civilised behaviour and Palestinians are barbaric is unjust. Both sides want another pound of flesh!

No. Israel does not want a pound of flesh at all. They want to be left alone.

I will first say that your argument misses the point. Secondly, it is wrong. Palestinians are responsible for the death of their own children in both instances. The palestinians send their own children to blow themselves up, and in doing so, force Israel to defend themselves which causes more to be killed.

The point is, Israel fights defensively. Palestine fights offensively. Nobody needs to die at all and if the Palestinians would stop attacking Israel, nobody at all would die. THAT is the point.

 

[jmaster78]

Comprehend, I hope you don't think I'm taking sides here because of my last reply, that is not the case. I am neutral, i think both sides have made mistakes in equal numbers and severity. I say this to everyone not just you, no one knows what G-D thinks of the situation in Israel, but whether you call him Yehwah or Allah, i doubt any of us will get a pat on the back from him if we still think in this 'it's your fault' mentality when we reach those pearly white gates. and it will be too late for us then. But as long as our feet are still on terra firma we still have time to get our thoughs in order. even if we ourselves don't make much impact on situation itself.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

jmaster78...you would like to delete the 39th post since it's repeated...

Wouldn't you agree that most Palestinians are muslim and most Israeli's are Jews?

yes, but refering to muslims and jews makes it sounds like a religious issue, which I think it's not..

Yes, the United States could claim them. They do not however. Do you disagree that this is how international politics has always been? Countries have always taken land by force. It has also always been accepted as legitimate. Do the British ask for America back?

Well...reallity is not usaully ideal, and this is the case here..
Thats why I don't buy this law even if it is the fact in our time..

I believe Israel was attacked before they took that land in 67, no?

The 99% offer was made in the 1990's at Camp David with Bill Clinton, Yassir Arafat and Ariel Sharon (I think Sharon). Arafat stood up at the offer and said "you go to hell" and knocked over the table. Why? I have an idea...

Israel was not wellcomed to the region...And we arabs believe this land is palestinian, and the forced presence of Israel in it is not legal...So fights was pretty predictable in this period...

But in 67, Israel invaded more land than the UN proposed, and was kind of taking adventage of the war between Egypt and both France and UK...(a dirty move if one might say)

NO. I think you misunderstood the english. It means the same as this sentence: "They did not lose any land howeverthey write things just as bad."

I think I should have put a comma after "land" to help. I definitely was not saying that Israel is going to take more land. They don't want more. They gave Egypt back the Negev desert when they didn't have to...

Damn this English thing!..lol

I think Israel was forced to return back the land, coz Egypt was the stronger in these negotiations, having more Israeli prisoners, and least losses..

Golda Meir said “We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”

It is also said that if Arab countries laid down their guns, there would be no more war; If Israeli's laid down their guns, there would be no more Israel.

It's a matter of fact that Arabs even they have many culturs and traditions, still have the feel of brotherhood...
Watching our kids and people killed and supressed this way, and watching military forces in the holy land (the Aqsa) just make us blind...
It's a normal response to hate Israel, which most of us consider as an illigal existance in our lands...

And I really think Arabs have not raised guns for more than 20 years, exept maybe stones in general with some simple weapons, against..mm, lets see, apatche, fst guns, tanks, and a huge storage of mass destructive weopons...
I think there is a huge force unbalance in the region which will always lead to war..
If any other country had such strength, I think Israek would think 100 times before taking any stubid move...
But the case now is that Israel is being the stronger and is forcing its policy in the region supported by USA...

The fact remains Einstein, that the moment Israel began to exist as a nation, the Arabs attacked. They did not give peace an opportunity. They did not give Israel an opportunity. Israel has had to fight for it's existance from day one.

The moment Israel forced us to accept it as a nation after kicking of palestenians, we tried to defend the weaker side, and the Arabic identity...
I prefer phrasing it that way..

I must say that it is very lucky that Israel is so powerful. If they were not, the Arabs would have destroyed Israel long ago.

This power difference produces fights...
It's known that unbalanced forces dont produce stability...the same concept goes here..

 

[EiNsTeiN]

and the United States was founded on conquest at the expense of the Native Americans, and every european country took land that used to belong to someone else at some point. That is just the way it works. I can't help it, but I don't know why Israel is somehow different. You think Egypt or Jordan has not taken land from some other people at some point?

Are you denying that victory in battle as an accepted method of aquiring land? I was not supporting or opposing the practice.

Hitler did win half of Europe in battle (if you call what the French did battle), and Hitler would have been able to keep it if nobody objected. However, a lot of countries did object, and they took the land back via victory in battle. This is how the world has always worked. I didn't say it was wonderful, I said it is reality.

If it's not wonderfull...then why do you support it and try defending their side?

The point is, Israel fights defensively. Palestine fights offensively. Nobody needs to die at all and if the Palestinians would stop attacking Israel, nobody at all would die. THAT is the point.

I dont know what to say, but I will just give you an example...
Imagine you through a stone at some one,and suddenly you discover this one has killed your family, destroyed you house, and kicked you off

Is that a fair response?...even if you are the one who attacked first?

Israel is hitting Gaza strip with bombs and plans...
And destroy many many many houses...
And lets many families in the streets..

Added to the palestanians living outside their country and forced not to return...(these are people kicked off, so that Israelies can live)...

This is not by anyway combared to kicking Israelies with stones for instance!!

noway of comparison

 

[!Fluffy!]

It is also said that if Arab countries laid down their guns, there would be no more war; If Israeli's laid down their guns, there would be no more Israel.

The fact remains Einstein, that the moment Israel began to exist as a nation, the Arabs attacked. They did not give peace an opportunity. They did not give Israel an opportunity. Israel has had to fight for it's existance from day one. Maybe, if Arabs stopped trying to wipe Israel off the map as Amadinezhad says or drive them into the sea as Arafat and others are fond of saying, then Israel would not need so much weaponry.

I must say that it is very lucky that Israel is so powerful. If they were not, the Arabs would have destroyed Israel long ago.

Wow, excellent post. This is perhaps one of the most well articulated nail-on-the-head posts on the subject I've ever seen.

 

[jmaster78]

and the United States was founded on conquest at the expense of the Native Americans, and every european country took land that used to belong to someone else at some point. That is just the way it works. I can't help it, but I don't know why Israel is somehow different. You think Egypt or Jordan has not taken land from some other people at some point?

Are you denying that victory in battle as an accepted method of aquiring land? I was not supporting or opposing the practice.

Hitler did win half of Europe in battle (if you call what the French did battle), and Hitler would have been able to keep it if nobody objected. However, a lot of countries did object, and they took the land back via victory in battle. This is how the world has always worked. I didn't say it was wonderful, I said it is reality.

I don't think war is acceptable, or the spoils of it. you are correct in that almost every country on the planet has attacked another country. Israel and Hamas have the same disregard for human life, difference is Israel is meant to be a modern civilised country and killing a hundred civilians to get one terrorist is not how modern civilised countries do it! (appart from america) and who's Israels big brother???? what a surprise.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I don't think war is acceptable, or the spoils of it. you are correct in that almost every country on the planet has attacked another country. Israel and Hamas have the same disregard for human life, difference is Israel is meant to be a modern civilised country and killing a hundred civilians to get one terrorist is not how modern civilised countries do it! (appart from america) and who's Israels big brother???? what a surprise.

Well...that is a good one..
Although I still insist that Hamas is getting mature right now, and it's not being like the past...It's now practicing neet and smart politics...

 

[Comprehend]

yes, but refering to muslims and jews makes it sounds like a religious issue, which I think it's not..

I think it is. If Israeli's were all Muslim, there wouldn't be a problem.

Well...reallity is not usaully ideal, and this is the case here..
Thats why I don't buy this law even if it is the fact in our time..

I am sorry that you do not like reality. but you didn't really answer my question. Why is just Israel wrong? Why do you not demand all of the countries give back their land?

Israel was not wellcomed to the region...And we arabs believe this land is palestinian, and the forced presence of Israel in it is not legal...So fights was pretty predictable in this period...

That is quite the understatement. Yes, the immediate attack with the intention of total destruction of the people is not what I would call welcoming. I understand that you Arabs believe the land is palestinian, but the way to solve something you think is not legal is to fight a legal battle. Not to attempt to destroy a people. That is attempted genocide.

Fights are only predictable if you assume that the arabs are intolerant of giving a people who just barely survived the Holocaust a tiny sliver of land to live on. Are arabs really that intolerant of another people? Why did they not try diplomacy first? why attack the day Israel was formed?

But in 67, Israel invaded more land than the UN proposed, and was kind of taking adventage of the war between Egypt and both France and UK...(a dirty move if one might say)

Some might say that attacking a nation on the day it was created is a dirty move...

Damn this English thing!..lol

no worries.

I think Israel was forced to return back the land, coz Egypt was the stronger in these negotiations, having more Israeli prisoners, and least losses..

um. I hate to say it but Israel kicked Egypt's rear end in that war.

Wikipedia categorizes it this way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
ResultDecisive Israeli victory

It's a matter of fact that Arabs even they have many culturs and traditions, still have the feel of brotherhood...
Watching our kids and people killed and supressed this way, and watching military forces in the holy land (the Aqsa) just make us blind...
It's a normal response to hate Israel, which most of us consider as an illigal existance in our lands...

NO. It is not a normal response to hate anyone. What happened to the religion of peace? Would you say that hatred of Israel is normal for all muslims and/or arabs?

Are you saying that arabs will not stop attacking until Israel does not control Jerusalem?

And I really think Arabs have not raised guns for more than 20 years, exept maybe stones in general with some simple weapons, against..mm, lets see, apatche, fst guns, tanks, and a huge storage of mass destructive weopons...
I think there is a huge force unbalance in the region which will always lead to war..
If any other country had such strength, I think Israek would think 100 times before taking any stubid move...
But the case now is that Israel is being the stronger and is forcing its policy in the region supported by USA...

Are you not counting homicide bombers? Lets not forget that homicide bombers have been blowing up women and children in Israel for a long time...

The moment Israel forced us to accept it as a nation after kicking of palestenians, we tried to defend the weaker side, and the Arabic identity...
I prefer phrasing it that way..

no no. The arab nations convinced the palestinians (I'll play along and pretend there is such a people but really they are Jordanians), to leave their homes. Israel asked them to stay and they could live together. Please don't tell me you deny this as well?

This power difference produces fights...
It's known that unbalanced forces dont produce stability...the same concept goes here..

I disagree, I don't see Canada and Mexico sending homicide bombers into the US, do you?

 

[Comprehend]

If it's not wonderfull...then why do you support it and try defending their side?

I am not defending anything, I am only explaining reality.

I dont know what to say, but I will just give you an example...
Imagine you through a stone at some one,and suddenly you discover this one has killed your family, destroyed you house, and kicked you off

Is that a fair response?...even if you are the one who attacked first?

and I will give you an example.

Imagine you and your people had just survived the most horrific attempt at genocide ever made in modern history and you are given a tiny tiny sliver of your historic homeland to live in peace as a people. However, instead of peace, on the day your country comes into existance, your "neighbors" decide they want to kill you.

What would a fair response to that be? Would you think that when one is attacked, they are justified in killing their attacker?

Israel is hitting Gaza strip with bombs and plans...
And destroy many many many houses...
And lets many families in the streets..

Added to the palestanians living outside their country and forced not to return...(these are people kicked off, so that Israelies can live)...

This is not by anyway combared to kicking Israelies with stones for instance!!

noway of comparison

You are pretending that homicide bombers are not at work... please admit that the palestinians are doing much more than throwing stones... they are blowing up women and children.

The arabs went to war over dirt. How much more justified is Israel in going to war over their dead women and children?

Here is a list of some of the worst in recent years to refresh your memory:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm

 

[Yerda]

Would you think that when one is attacked, they are justified in killing their attacker?

In some cases, yes.

Are they justified, however, in shooting unarmed civilians involved in non-violent protest?

Do terrorist attacks on Israel necessitate the violation of basic human rights? That they should want for food, water, education and liberty because there are thugs in their midst?

Should all of Gaza be punished every time a young man explodes in an Israeli restaurant?

 

[Comprehend]

In some cases, yes.

Are they justified, however, in shooting unarmed civilians involved in non-violent protest?

I can imagine situations when they would and situations when they wouldn't be justified. Do you have a specific incident in mind?

Do terrorist attacks on Israel necessitate the violation of basic human rights? That they should want for food, water, education and liberty because there are thugs in their midst?

No, it is certainly not necessary, however you might agree that when the "thugs" run the country it makes things a little more difficult. You see, the US and many other countries give a lot of aid money to Palestine but it disappears, the people are getting screwed by their own government as much as anyone else doing it.

Why do the peaceful Palestinians not immigrate to Jordan (as they are ethnically Jordanian) or Egypt if they disagree with the bombings?

Should all of Gaza be punished every time a young man explodes in an Israeli restaurant?

I wish not, but when the bombings are sanctioned by the government, you punish the government and often that ends up hurting the common people as well.

Do you have any idea why the "thugs" cannot be gotten rid of by the Palestinians themselves? Would you disagree that both major parties in Palestine are thugs? This is all the people want, it is all they vote for. There is no peace party in Palestine, only Fatah and Hamas, two terrorist organizations fighting for control.

Just recently, Fatah and Hamas had a squabble of their own and what did they do to settle the disagreement? They blew each other up. If American political parties blew each other up can you imagine what would happen?

 

[Quoth The Raven]

If American political parties blew each other up can you imagine what would happen?

They wouldn't be organising to blow anyone else up? The guy running the country would be the last man standing, who would probably be the little weedy feller no-one else thought was threatening enough to bother with?
Exploding politicians needn't have a bad end result.

 

[Comprehend]

They wouldn't be organising to blow anyone else up? The guy running the country would be the last man standing, who would probably be the little weedy feller no-one else thought was threatening enough to bother with?
Exploding politicians needn't have a bad end result.

LOL. yeah, I thought of that too. America could use some new politicians that is for sure.

 

[NoahideHiker]

To die for one's religion is easy and cowardly. Now living for your religion, that is the challange.

 

[love]

Israel has been a nation of people almost since the beginning of recorded history. Is there anywhere else on planet earth that they have any claim to?
No!
When they were trying to leave Europe by the millions during World War II, how many countries turned them away saying you have no home here knowing to stay would mean almost certain death?
Is being "Gods Chosen People" a curse for all time, or God's way of telling us His kingdom is not of this world? Were they "chosen" to be hated by this world?
Can I, being a non-Muslim even let my feet touch the ground in Mecca?
This conflict is much deeper than dispute over a tiny piece of land or repairing a walk way to the temple.
If Israel was driven into the sea and pulled dirt from the ocean floor (as in Dubai) to build them a home they would still have enemy's intent on their total destruction.
It is really a sad state of affairs, but if you believe the Bible (and Muslims claim a belief in the Bibical Prophets) then you know God will not let this happen.

 

[jmaster78]

No. Israel does not want a pound of flesh at all. They want to be left alone.

I will first say that your argument misses the point. Secondly, it is wrong. Palestinians are responsible for the death of their own children in both instances. The palestinians send their own children to blow themselves up, and in doing so, force Israel to defend themselves which causes more to be killed.

The point is, Israel fights defensively. Palestine fights offensively. Nobody needs to die at all and if the Palestinians would stop attacking Israel, nobody at all would die. THAT is the point.

are you really saying that Israel has never harrassed, stirred up, instigated conflict with the Palistinians??? that every clash verbally, psycologically, physically, has been instigated by the Palistinians?
So Israel wants to be left alone? and will they leave the Temple Mount alone? Will they give up their notion of a third temple?
You say they fight defensively? When the retaliation comes before the attack it is not defensive it's offencive! The term of phrase is "To secure peace is to prepare for war." not "To secure peace is to start war."
And as for all this talk about Israels entitlement to that land. WHY? because of some old book which claims the birth certificate of Israel? coincidentally written by Jews and written long after this verbal mythical agreement was made? Remember not everyone believes the bible, even many who do believe in it don't believe it was written by god, so what credence can it be afforded? None!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Oh...I totally forgot that thread!
Well, seems we have pretty much suppoters for palestinians here...

I think it is. If Israeli's were all Muslim, there wouldn't be a problem.

If they were Hindus for instance, that would be the same problem...
We reject the invaders of our land, regardless their religion, even if they were muslims...

I am sorry that you do not like reality. but you didn't really answer my question. Why is just Israel wrong? Why do you not demand all of the countries give back their land?

Well, Israel was not even a country 60 years ago, and was established on the bodies of my people...so I'm pretty much involved into this...
And not all the countries started by the end of anothers by the way...

That is quite the understatement. Yes, the immediate attack with the intention of total destruction of the people is not what I would call welcoming. I understand that you Arabs believe the land is palestinian, but the way to solve something you think is not legal is to fight a legal battle. Not to attempt to destroy a people. That is attempted genocide.

Sorry to say this, but, what people??
as I mentiond, 60 years before, nothing was called Israel...
You can't gather some extra people from all over the world and get them into a new country...
I'm against Zionism, not judaism, if someone asks...

Fights are only predictable if you assume that the arabs are intolerant of giving a people who just barely survived the Holocaust a tiny sliver of land to live on. Are arabs really that intolerant of another people? Why did they not try diplomacy first? why attack the day Israel was formed?

Fight was predictable...and though we were not intolerent...
How do you describe tolerence with invaders?
And further more, did Israel use diplomacy first before establishing their so claimd, country??
You don't respect those who took your land without your premission, and by force as well..

And why do we have to pay for the stubid acts of Hitler??
What do we have to do with the Haulocost?
And who said they didnt have their own land?...first of all, who are you refering to?...Jews?....every one of them has his own country, why not hanging out there instead of having a new one?

um. I hate to say it but Israel kicked Egypt's rear end in that war.

Wikipedia categorizes it this way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
ResultDecisive Israeli victory

I know what the Wiki says...
Actually we all here know what the world thinks of the Six-days war...
I'm sorry to say that this is not pretty much the truth, and sorry because we have less effective media than Israel, we couldnt show the truth to the world...

from the Egyptian's, and Israelian's documentries, Egypt is considerd the absolute winner in the war..
Else, how could we have more soldiers as prisoners, and returned them back as a gift to Goldamaer...?
And we actually destroyed Barlyf, which was considerd the strongest barrier in the world...
And destroyed the Napalm tubes in Sweiz canal using a 100% perfect plan planned by the Egyptian intelligence...
And kicked Israel out of more than 90% of Sainai ...
And had about 90% losses less than Israeli ones in the first strike...
And tricked the Mosad about 10 times that no one could ever expect that the Egyptian army is at the next side of the canal...

The only mistake was the Thaghra (the hole), that Sharon used to defeat the Egyptian army, but the interferance of the international community to stop the war prevented him from benefitting from such an opportunity...

Here came the Arabic tolerence, when Sadat agreed to sign for peace between Egyptians and Israellians, and gave back the prisoners as a sign of trust...

And in 1982, Egypt was able to return back the last meter of land from Israel by diplomatic efforts...

It's too sad how we didn't care telling the whole world about the truth...
And it's even more sad to see the whole world driven into the Israeli propaganda about their claimed victory without no sensible evidence...

NO. It is not a normal response to hate anyone. What happened to the religion of peace? Would you say that hatred of Israel is normal for all muslims and/or arabs?

Are you saying that arabs will not stop attacking until Israel does not control Jerusalem?

I'm saying that it's our right to hate the people who are killing us!!
I think that is logic enough...
And yet, we are tolerent, when we are in the suitable place for using tolerence...
(An arabic proverb: the strong is the one who forgives when he can punish)

Are you not counting homicide bombers? Lets not forget that homicide bombers have been blowing up women and children in Israel for a long time...

Did anyone ask himself, why did they do that?
Most probably, a homicide bomber is a one who lost his whole family due to the injustice attacks of Israel...
Or a one who has lost everything due to the Israeli machinary...And he is most likly driven by the hate and revenge...

Another point is that, this is not the palestinian's government policy with Israel, while terrorism is the general policy of Israeli government..

These homicide bombers are individuals, who are just responding to the attacks against them, by the only thing they have....their bodies..

I'm not saying I agree with these acts, but I'm just feeling how these people reached a desperate life that they could sacrify their life that way...

no no. The arab nations convinced the palestinians (I'll play along and pretend there is such a people but really they are Jordanians), to leave their homes. Israel asked them to stay and they could live together. Please don't tell me you deny this as well?

And what about the half million Palestinains who can'r return home?
And the Palestinians who chose to live with Israel, are just living in hell!
no education, no medical care, not even the least humanity rights...
People die every day just on the borders, because the Israeli soldiers don't allow people to pass, even those who are in emergency...they even don't allow ambulances to enter and help them...

I disagree, I don't see Canada and Mexico sending homicide bombers into the US, do you?

Why?...does the US attack Canada an Mexico?
if so, my rule will prove its validity...

In the middle east, the two opponents have a wide difference in militery power, which makes unstability...thats what I meant...

I am not defending anything, I am only explaining reality.

Well, explain reality, but defend justice...

Imagine you and your people had just survived the most horrific attempt at genocide ever made in modern history and you are given a tiny tiny sliver of your historic homeland to live in peace as a people. However, instead of peace, on the day your country comes into existance, your "neighbors" decide they want to kill you.

First of all, what do you mean by my people?...muslims?
Well, we differentaite between religion and nationality..
And those who suffered the Houlocost are Germans...Am I right?

You are pretending that homicide bombers are not at work... please admit that the palestinians are doing much more than throwing stones... they are blowing up women and children.

Count the dead people from both sides for the last 60 years...Israel is the contest!!

Here is a list of some of the worst in recent years to refresh your memory:

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm[/URL]

For every action there is a reaction...
And Israel is an expert in bracketing the reaction...And the world is an expert in being blind for the actions...

There have been more than 70 Palestinian bomb attacks aimed at Israelis since the current conflict erupted in September 2000

And double that number is the Israeli attackes aimed civilians and unarmed people in the same time period...

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Peace requires strength to defend it

 

[Yerda]

I can imagine situations when they would and situations when they wouldn't be justified. Do you have a specific incident in mind?

You can imagine situations where non-violent protest by unarmed civilians should be met with shootings?

I have in mind any occasion that the IOF have met peaceful protest with bullets.

No, it is certainly not necessary, however you might agree that when the "thugs" run the country it makes things a little more difficult.

It makes peaceful relations more difficult, yes.

You see, the US and many other countries give a lot of aid money to Palestine but it disappears, the people are getting screwed by their own government as much as anyone else doing it.

I am aware of such claims, and do not doubt them, but I have no comment to offer since I am unfamiliar with the facts.

Why do the peaceful Palestinians not immigrate to Jordan (as they are ethnically Jordanian) or Egypt if they disagree with the bombings?

It would be a travesty if terror tactics could so easily drive people from their lands.

I wish not, but when the bombings are sanctioned by the government, you punish the government and often that ends up hurting the common people as well.

The government has sanctioned suicide bombings?

In any case, collective punishment is still an act of a terror and an infringement upon any concept of justice.

Do you have any idea why the "thugs" cannot be gotten rid of by the Palestinians themselves? Would you disagree that both major parties in Palestine are thugs? This is all the people want, it is all they vote for. There is no peace party in Palestine, only Fatah and Hamas, two terrorist organizations fighting for control.

Just recently, Fatah and Hamas had a squabble of their own and what did they do to settle the disagreement? They blew each other up. If American political parties blew each other up can you imagine what would happen?

It is striking that you should draw such an image and then link it to American politics. Should I assume that because Americans continue to vote for parties committed to murdering people all around the world that it is all they want?

This talk is characteristic of the kind of drivel that infuriates people all over the place who just see people being brutalised and want to help. Be they at the mercy of Israelis other Palestinians, Palestinian civilians are not a degenerate race who deserve what they get but real living humans who should be protected from oppression and afforded human rights and dignity.

 

[NoahideHiker]

Did anyone see the story of Erez Levanon over the weekend? He was a Breslover Jew who was out in the forest doing hitbodedut (personal prayer) and was stabbed to death by two Palestininian men as he prayed. Very traggic.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1171894524591&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull