Israel: Ethnic Cleansing or Genocide.

[Balthazzar]

It's literally a doctrine of the IDF.

Dahiya doctrine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At this stage, I care significantly less about "irresponsible assertions" than I do about irresponsible use of violence. As far as I am aware, people being a little too trigger-happy with their language didn't kill tens of thousands of civilians.

I won't disagree. Irresponsible use of violence should never be accepted, not ever. Irresponsible use of violence is something to oppose. An opposition to irresponsible use of violence is expected from nearly everyone. At least, I would think so. Being too trigger happy with the use of language may not kill tens of thousands, but it can set the stage for hostilities. Delicate situations with a few centuries worth of disagreements between peoples involved has created a very hostile region. More so than this are the thousands of years setting the stage events for events like this one.

 

[dybmh]

See the recent WFP report.

Feb. 20, 2024 - WFP report released. Feb 21, 2024 - Food was air dropped into northern Gaza. A route to northern Gaza has been established. Convoys of aid trucks have resumed servicing northern Gaza.

Didn't we converse about this yesterday?

Hopefully you recall several weeks ago I proposed the US and UK get involved directly, on the ground, operating the check-points, opening new transfer stations, freeing the israeli soldiers to secure and accompany the convoys of aid. If this were done, the aid would never have been cut off to northern Gaza. Securing the aid is not only a problem in the north. I am certainly aware of the dire situation. There is a solution, but, you were not in favor of it citing something about "Iraq".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Right. And I think it is fair (and arguably even charitable) to describe such actions as "seem(ing) intended to cause greater collateral damage and harm than necessary".

And I do not agree.

What would you view as necessary to eliminate Hamas as an existential threat and free the hostages?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And I do not agree.

You agree that the IDF kills far more civilians than necessary, causes far more collateral damage in general than necessary, and subscribes to a doctrine that espouses the use of disproportionate force against civilian targets... but you don't agree that it SEEMS they are doing these things intentionally?

Do you suggest it's all a hilarious misunderstanding?

What would you view as necessary to eliminate Hamas as an existential threat and free the hostages.

It's not my job to ensure war crimes don't happen while carrying out military operations in Gaza; that's the job of the IDF. I would hazard a guess, however, that cutting off aid, food, water and killing tens of thousands of civilians - including Israeli hostages - isn't strictly "necessary".

 

[dybmh]

It's literally a doctrine of the IDF.

I think you are conflating the commentary about the doctrine with what the doctrine actually states.

Dahiya doctrine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From the link:

​

From our perspective, these are military bases. [...] This isn't a suggestion. It's a plan that has already been authorized. [...] Every one of the Shiite villages is a military site, with headquarters, an intelligence center, and a communications center. Dozens of rockets are buried in houses, basements, attics, and the village is run by Hezbollah men. In each village, according to its size, there are dozens of active members, the local residents, and alongside them fighters from outside, and everything is prepared and planned both for a defensive battle and for firing missiles at Israel. [...] Hezbollah understands well that its fire from within villages will lead to their destruction. Before Nasrallah gives the order to fire at Israel, he will need to think 30 times if he wants to destroy his support base in the villages.​

​

When a civilian asset is used for a military purpose it is no longer a civilian asset. It is a legitimate target. That's all.

Here's a recent picture of a rocket launcher hidden in a cooler in a hospital lab in Khan Younis:

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Here's a recent picture of a rocket launcher hidden in a cooler in a hospital lab in Khan Younis:

View attachment 88809

Would you be able to provide a source for this picture?

 

[dybmh]

I believe there is a clear and strong case that said officials are indeed planning to conduct an ethnic cleansing of Gazans to make room for Israeli settlements.

This is contrary to what has been stated very recently by those who *actually* make and implement israeli policy.

From today's news:

https://www.axios.com/2024/02/26/rafah-palestinians-israel-egypt-hamas-idf

"Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi and Shin Bet security agency director Ronen Bar visited Cairo last week to reassure their Egyptian counterparts that Israel will take steps to ensure an operation in Rafah will not create an influx of Palestinian refugees into Egypt, two U.S. officials briefed on the issue told Axios."

 

[Shaul]

There is no Israeli genocide nor ethnic cleansing of the Arabs (they are Arabs, not "Palestinians") in Gaza. The UN, and more specifically UNRWA, has lied about Israel in the past and is doing so now. Under the British mandate of Palestine there were Jews living in Gaza. The Jews of Gaza were ethnicallly cleansed from it both by the British and later by the Egyptians. Every Arab country ethnically cleansed itself of Jews after 1948. The population of Gazan Arabs in 1960 (under Egyptian rule) was 260,800. Today it is about 2,100,000. That is an eight fold increase. That isn't a genocide nor ethnic cleansing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What would you view as necessary to eliminate Hamas as an existential threat and free the hostages.

It's not my job to ensure war crimes don't happen while carrying out military operations in Gaza;

Nice dance.

 

[Revoltingest]

Genocide per the 1948 UN definition.

 

[dybmh]

Would you be able to provide a source for this picture?

It's from the IDF, Cogat specifically.

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/coordination-of-government-activities-in-the-territories/govil-landing-page

They post video clips from the IDF bodycams as proof that they are, in fact, attacking military targets which masquerade or double as civilian infrastructure.

Here's a link to the entire video clip:

COGAT on Instagram: "In eastern Khan Yunis, INSIDE a medical laboratory refrigerator, Hamas stored a rocket launcher and a long-range rocket. Hamas continues to exploit the most vulnerable, using them as human shields. #FreeGaza from Hamas"

105 likes, 12 comments - cogatonline on February 25, 2024: "In eastern Khan Yunis, INSIDE a medical laboratory refrigerator, Hamas stored a rocket launcher and a long-range rocket. Hamas continues to exploit the most vulnerable, using them as human shields. #FreeGaza from Hamas".

www.instagram.com

Here's more:

 

[dybmh]

Genocide per the 1948 UN definition.

The UN definition distinguishes between military targets and civilian targets. Hamas are Palestinian. Attacking Hamas is attacking a part of Palestine. Israel is attacking those who have attacked them, whose stated goal is their elimination, who have repeatedly acted on those goals. Those people happen to be Palestinian; their assets are Palestinian assets.

You are simply unwilling or unable to admit that you don't know the military necessity of Israel's actions. Because of this, you proclaim genocide... from ignorance.

 

[Ebionite]

You are simply unwilling or unable to admit that you don't know the military necessity of Israel's actions. Because of this, you proclaim genocide... from ignorance.

The doctrine of necessity has no ethical basis.

 

[dybmh]

The doctrine of necessity has no ethical basis.

Please elaborate?

 

[Revoltingest]

The UN definition distinguishes between military targets and civilian targets. Hamas are Palestinian. Attacking Hamas is attacking a part of Palestine. Israel is attacking those who have attacked them, whose stated goal is their elimination, who have repeatedly acted on those goals. Those people happen to be Palestinian; their assets are Palestinian assets.

You are simply unwilling or unable to admit that you don't know the military necessity of Israel's actions. Because of this, you proclaim genocide... from ignorance.

I proclaim genocide based on evidence.

Your diagnosis of my condition
invites me to diagnose yours....

You justify genocide by denying because
of your fanatical support for Israel, &
devaluing of Palestinian Muslim lives.

 

[Rival]

You justify genocide by denying because
of your fanatical support for Israel, &
devaluing of Palestinian Muslim lives.

There are many Christians there too, who don't seem to get a look in. Many of them have also condemned Israel.

 

[Revoltingest]

There are many Christians there too, who don't seem to get a look in. Many of them have also condemned Israel.

Muslims are the significant portion though.
And Israel's animosity for them drives genocide (IMO)

 

[Shaul]

Next door to Israel, in Syria over 500,000 people were killed in its civil war. That includes over 160,000 civilians. No mention of that being a genocide. No massive protests. Because it didn't involve Jews.

 

[Revoltingest]

Next door to Israel, in Syria over 500,000 people were killed in its civil war. That includes over 160,000 civilians. No mention of that being a genocide. No massive protests. Because it didn't involve Jews.

Other conflicts matter less in USA Because we
taxpayers weren't sending bombs there to commit
genocide.
USA has killed more than 500,000 in the proxy war
waged by Irag when it invaded Iran (more than that
in Iran alone). USA supplied extensive military aid,
including bio & chem weapons). There were no
massive protests because only Muslims were dying
on both sides.

If people murder each other around the world,
it matters much more to me if my government
is using my tax dollars to commit genocide.
USA government (overwhelmingly Christian &
Jewish) is fine with killing Muslims.

 

[Shaul]

Because we taxpayers weren't buying bombs
to send to Israel to kill Muslims. And USA has
killed more than 500,000 in the proxy war
waged by Irag when it invaded Iran (more than
that in Iran alone).
USA supplied extensive military aid, including
bio & chem weapons). But there were no
massive protests because only Muslims were
dying on both sides.

If people murder each other around the world,
it matters much more to me if my government
is using my tax dollars to enhance the death &
destruction.

The U.S. has spent over $15,000,000,000 in the Syrian civil war and bombed and killed thousands. It maintains military bases in Syria which have been attacked killing American service members. The U.S. has no bases in Israel. If U.S. involvement is your primary criteria for concern of conflicts you should be more concerned with the U.S. involvement in Syrian than what is happening in Gaza.