Israel Fires on Humanitarian Aid Flotilla

[Poisonshady313]

To sum up my feelings as of now.

Both sides are being stupid. They are pointing fingers at one another when they both are the problem. The people on the flotilla were told ahead of time what would happen if they attempted this; but also at the same time, Israel knew they would try it anyways and they used too much force.

When a group of people are beating the hell out of you with metal rods, have thrown one of your comrades overboard, and start shooting at you... what amount of force would have been just right?


Israeli commandos landed on 6 ships. There was violence on only one of them.

If Israelis were using too much force, there would have been far more than 9 casualties on a ship carrying more than 500.

 

[YmirGF]

If Israelis were using too much force, there would have been far more than 9 casualties on a ship carrying more than 500.

Details, details, details...

 

[Poisonshady313]

Is everything you do spiteful and mean? I had a heated debate with a few members in this thread (yourself included). I apologised if I hurt anyone. Now, when I ask you an honest question, you cannot even engage me sincerely.

Perhaps Poisonshady or Arimoff will be more hospitable and help me out with this. If there are statements and manifestos about judenrein, I am sincerely interested in reading/watching them. :yes:

Let's start here:

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

...

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
​

...

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.



...


And let's not fall for the whole "but they're talking about occupiers and a Zionist government, not all Jews". Because...


Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. "May the cowards never sleep."




That is just from the Hamas charter.

 

[Poisonshady313]

You yourself suggested that Israel give up 100% of the West Bank. Do you not understand the concept of 100%? That in order for this process to move forward, every Jew would have to leave the area that the Palestinians would hope to have for a state. If Jewish homes could not be incorporated into a newly independent Arab State of Palestine, how could it be said that they have any interest in living peacefully with Jews in their midst?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Details, details, details...

When Israel is made out to be the big bad bullies, bloodthirsty murderous thugs... how could people who view Israel this way believe that there would only be 9 casualties in a 600 person flotilla? What the hell kind of premeditated, cold hearted attack leaves only 9 people dead?

 

[Sunstone]

Do you seriously think that Israel had much other choice than to send in her soldiers?

That is not my position. I want to know the source for the claim that the flotilla was carrying weapons.

 

[kai]

That is not my position. I want to know the source for the claim that the flotilla was carrying weapons.

If i may?


what he said was:

"Israel has every right to assume efforts to smuggle terrorist weaponry into Israel"


the underlining is mine

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ah great answer Jayhawker, ...

An accurate characterization.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If i may?


what he said was:

"Israel has every right to assume efforts to smuggle terrorist weaponry into Israel"


the underlining is mine

As opposed to the famous Sunstone Doctrine which asserts that a military blockade is reasonable and justifiable only if employed (a) by non-Jews, and (b) against specific ships that advertise terrorist cargo.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That is just from the Hamas charter.

Nu? It's just one more inconvenient truth for those who persistently and enthusiastically embrace anti-Zionist vitriol.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As the world has clearly come down against Israel on this matter, and at the same time shown no inclination to support Hamas, it seems that these defending Israel on this forum are simply leaning against the wind.

Much of their defence has come down to using as few meaningful words to insult their detractors as possible.

In the eyes of the world the Jewish case against the Palestinians has always been weak, and were it not for past American financial and military support, would be far less able to oppress them.

All wars end in negotiation. Israel is undermining any hope that this can be successfully concluded any time soon. Israel must come to understand that organisations like Hamas are a symptom of their oppression not the cause of the problem.

 

[tumbleweed41]

As the world has clearly come down against Israel on this matter, and at the same time shown no inclination to support Hamas, it seems that these defending Israel on this forum are simply leaning against the wind.

Much of their defence has come down to using as few meaningful words to insult their detractors as possible.

In the eyes of the world the Jewish case against the Palestinians has always been weak, and were it not for past American financial and military support, would be far less able to oppress them.

All wars end in negotiation. Israel is undermining any hope that this can be successfully concluded any time soon. Israel must come to understand that organisations like Hamas are a symptom of their oppression not the cause of the problem.

Very well said.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As the world has clearly come down against Israel on this matter, and at the same time shown no inclination to support Hamas, ...

Anything that facilitates the arming of Hamas supports Hamas and and it's efforts in the service of it's Charter.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

As the world has clearly come down against Israel on this matter, and at the same time shown no inclination to support Hamas, it seems that these defending Israel on this forum are simply leaning against the wind.

Much of their defence has come down to using as few meaningful words to insult their detractors as possible.

In the eyes of the world the Jewish case against the Palestinians has always been weak, and were it not for past American financial and military support, would be far less able to oppress them.

All wars end in negotiation. Israel is undermining any hope that this can be successfully concluded any time soon. Israel must come to understand that organisations like Hamas are a symptom of their oppression not the cause of the problem.

I'm always skeptical about this claim. Israel is indeed a friend of the USA, but they can stand on their own two feet without our help.

In fact, Israel has mastered its self-defense so well without our help that we bring them over here to train our soldiers and police.

On another point, how can you say that all wars end in negotiation? Do you know anything about military history? Some wars do end in negotiated surrender, but many wars have concluded with the victor imposing their will on the loser.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I'm always skeptically about this claim. Israel is indeed a friend of the USA, but they can stand on their own two feet without our help.

The distinction is perhaps more subtle... Jewish-American political and financial support has always been fundamental from the earliest days of the Israel state.
Armaments and military intelligence has also always been available. Of recent years the technical aspects of this have become much more a two way business.

In fact, Israel has mastered its self-defence so well without our help that we bring them over here to train our soldiers and police.

Their unorthodox techniques ( like the UK SAS ) have always been world leaders in behind the lines and skirmish situations.

On another point, how can you say that all wars end in negotiation? Do you know anything about military history? Some wars do end in negotiated surrender, but many wars have concluded with the victor imposing their will on the loser.

I probably over egged the cake in saying "all". However wars that do not end in negotiation and agreement, are prone to repeat at a later date, as demonstrated by WW1. and the unfair terms laid down, this led directly to WW2.

It contrasts greatly with the rebuilding and aid to Germany after WW2. and also to the revamping of their institutions and unions and electoral systems to guarantee a democratic process in the future. Whilst the surrender was unconditional, its implementation was quite the reverse.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Anything that facilitates the arming of Hamas supports Hamas and and it's efforts in the service of it's Charter.

The supply of humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, does not equate to, nor facilitates the rearming of Hamas.

Hamas, or a successor, will continue to trouble Israel until the Palestinians are both fairly treated and have their own sovereign state.

This is a fact of life . It is not something that will go away nor that depends on the existence or not of Hamas.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The supply of humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, does not equate to, nor facilitates ...

Except when it does.

 

[Sunstone]

As opposed to the famous Sunstone Doctrine which asserts that a military blockade is reasonable and justifiable only if employed (a) by non-Jews, and (b) against specific ships that advertise terrorist cargo.

You can take your false and malicious characterization of my beliefs and cram it where it hurts you the most, Jay. It is a lie to assert I hold to that doctrine.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Okay.

Who's up for a hug and a beer? :drunk:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You can take your false and malicious characterization of my beliefs and cram it where it hurts you the most, Jay. It is a lie to assert I hold to that doctrine.

Apparently the characterization is far more accurate than is comfortable.