Israel-Gaza : The bitter harvest of hate

[Revoltingest]

I am not justifying it though. I am opposed to both Israel bombing palestinians and USA nuking the japanese during WW2. I see both actions as evil.

I know what you're doing.
It's still specious to treat both
scenarios as equivalent.
If you see no differences, then
we've no common ground for
discussion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But if you want a morality statement: ...

I don't.

 

[metis]

Israel CANNOT succeed by "removing Hamas" .. particularly as the way they are doing it, sheer force,
will only breed more hate.

But the alternative would be worse, namely an endless cycle of assaults that always kill Israeli civilians as we have seen over and over again. And Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel, so what are the Israelis to do? Just roll over and play dead???

 

[Yerda]

But the alternative would be worse, namely an endless cycle of assaults that always kill Israeli civilians as we have seen over and over again. And Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel, so what are the Israelis to do? Just roll over and play dead???

The risk that every one keep pointing to is that this slaughter of civilians is likely to lead to greater hatred and further violence.

There is also the implicit acceptance that Palestinian lives are worth nothing if it can save Israelis from the possibility of violence. I would expect the Israeli government to make this trade. I am pretty disheartened by the number of people with not a lick of skin in the game making the same calculation and finding it agreeable.

How is it not racist to say that killing tens of thousands of one group of people is fine as long as it reduces the risk of another group of people facing violence?

 

[metis]

The risk that every one keep pointing to is that this slaughter of civilians is likely to lead to greater hatred and further violence.

There is also the implicit acceptance that Palestinian lives are worth nothing if it can save Israelis from the possibility of violence. I would expect the Israeli government to make this trade. I am pretty disheartened by the number of people with not a lick of skin in the game making the same calculation and finding it agreeable.

How is it not racist to say that killing tens of thousands of one group of people is fine as long as it reduces the risk of another group of people facing violence?

Again, what's your solution?

And while you're thinking about this, just think about some of your relatives and/or friends who got massacred and also the missiles launched by Hamas that are now hitting place of residence?

BTW, accusing Israelis as being "racist" is racism in and of itself. "Physician, heal thyself!".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would expect the Israeli government to make this trade.

What trade is that, and how should it differ from the truce violated on October 7th?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Again, what's your solution?

And while you're thinking about this, just think about some of your relatives and/or friends who got massacred and also the missiles launched by Hamas that are now hitting place of residence?

BTW, accusing Israelis as being "racist" is racism in and of itself. "Physician, heal thyself!".

You've not really addressed the argument being made. You make these calculations as if the ONLY option for Israel to respond to the murder of its civilians is to murder dozens more Palestinian civilians (and no, I do not accept the "they're getting in the way of missiles that are intended for Hamas" line - the IDF explicitly states that its strategy is one of damage over precision).

I know people's whose relatives are in Gaza. What do you say to them? Why is your consideration only for Israeli victims and not Palestinians? I would very much like to know why you engage in this emotional rhetoric on behalf of the lives of people murdered in Israel (people who, by and large, are against Israeli policy and its treatment of Gazans), and yet you have no such consideration for the much, much higher number of people killed in Gaza. It's almost as if, as Yerda was illustrating, you place more weight on the lives of Israelis than you do Gazans.

And Yerda did not accuse Israelis of being racist - that's an obvious manipulation. They asked a clear question that you refused to answer, and instead doubled-down on the very issue the question is highlighting: that of only caring about the civilian casualties of one ethnic/racial group, but ignoring the civilians casualties of another, or implying that the value of the safety of one is worth the death and destruction of the other.

I would say that anyone who says killing or putting Palestinian civilians in danger is okay as long as it reduces the amount of Israeli civilians being killed or put in danger is explicitly racist, yes.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But the alternative would be worse, namely an endless cycle of assaults that always kill Israeli civilians as we have seen over and over again.

And yet, Israel have killed around ten times more Palestinians in numerous conflicts than Hamas have killed Israelis, and the violence from Hamas is still continuing and support for Hamas is increasing. So, obviously, Israel's continuing strategy of violence and human rights violations against civilians in Gaza doesn't work. Perhaps it is time we considered the revolutionary notion that responding to terrorism by continuing violence against, and worsening the lives of, millions of civilians isn't something that should be pursued.

And Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel, so what are the Israelis to do? Just roll over and play dead???

This is a false dichotomy. States can respond - even with force - to direct threats and violence without committing war crimes or engaging in strategies that disproportionately harm civilians. I am getting tired of saying this, but the alternative to "do war crimes" is not "just do nothing". There are countless countries throughout history that have responded to atrocities - and even genocides - without committing explicit war crimes and engaging in ethnic cleansing.

Stop defending it.

 

[Lyndon]

Israeli policy is fundamentally racist, that is the large part of the problem, not that Palestinians aren't racist too, but Israel is the one in power with ability to change the situation, more force doesn't solve anything, that's what Netenyahoo and company need to get through their thick skulls

 

[metis]

Israeli policy is fundamentally racist, that is the large part of the problem, not that Palestinians aren't racist too, but Israel is the one in power with ability to change the situation, more force doesn't solve anything, that's what Netenyahoo and company need to get through their thick skulls

So, just let Hamas kill more civilians, kidnap others, and then let the missiles kill more civilians. Got it.

 

[Lyndon]

So, just let Hamas kill more civilians, kidnap others, and then let the missiles kill more civilians. Got it.

what a stupid reply, they could start by improving their defenses then the attack would never have happened

 

[Yerda]

Again, what's your solution?

Less violence. Don't encourage it, don't increase it.

What kind of cowardice is it that deflects the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians with, what's your solution?

And while you're thinking about this, just think about some of your relatives and/or friends who got massacred and also the missiles launched by Hamas that are now hitting place of residence?

Um, ok.

Will this make it more or less likely that other families are killed in future?

BTW, accusing Israelis as being "racist" is racism in and of itself. "Physician, heal thyself!".

Accusing Israelis of racism is racism?

What trade is that, and how should it differ from the truce violated on October 7th?

Killing non-Israelis to protect Israelis. I mean, it's part of the job description to some extent.

 

[metis]

what a stupid reply, they could start by improving their defenses then the attack would never have happened

No, I would suggest it's the other way around, and what you're doing is taking the rather clearly unethical position of defending those that were assaulted, raped, killed, and kidnapped while blaming the victims and their government. Yes, there were not enough IDF in the south, but that still doesn't morally justify what Hamas did.

Your position reminds me of those that will say if a woman gets raped it's her fault as she wasn't careful enough.

 

[metis]

What kind of cowardice is it that deflects the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians with, what's your solution?

Name-calling as you have done is quite childish, thus maybe check out you own level of morality carefully.

You cite Palestinians being killed, which I also strongly regret, but not innocent Israeli citizens. If the above is logically and morally the best you can do, then this "discussion" with you ends.

 

[Yerda]

Name-calling as you have done is quite childish, thus maybe check out you own level of morality carefully.

You cite Palestinians being killed, which I also strongly regret, but not innocent Israeli citizens. If the above is logically and morally the best you can do, then this "discussion" with you ends.

Have a good day.

 

[Lyndon]

After the horrific war crimes of the IDF it almost makes Hamas seem more reasonable

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would never characterize an outburst refracted through near unimaginable trauma as absurd.

I see it more as an editorial issue.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But the alternative would be worse, namely an endless cycle of assaults that always kill Israeli civilians as we have seen over and over again. And Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel, so what are the Israelis to do? Just roll over and play dead???

Learn from the Troubles. It wasn't violence that ended the violence, it didn't stop the IRA, and later wouldn't get the PIRA to lay down arms. Those who wanted violence had to he ignored amd left behind as the way forward had to be paved with peace amd diplomacy.

 

[sun rise]

Learn from the Troubles. It wasn't violence that ended the violence, it didn't stop the IRA, and later wouldn't get the PIRA to lay down arms. Those who wanted violence had to he ignored amd left behind as the way forward had to be paved with peace amd diplomacy.

That was my point. The situation in the Middle-East is at least 10 times harder than Ireland, but I'd start with whomever is willing to sit down and talk.

On the Israeli side, make sure that food, water and medicine in sufficient quantities goes to the residents of Gaza and stop using "dumb" bombs. I'd also say that the Irish model is the Israeli plan - to sit down with everyone and start talking. I would explicitly invite Barghouti to be part of the discussions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The situation in the Middle-East is at least 10 times harder than Ireland,

According to whom? What makes it harder? It's both colonized peoples fighting against a colonizer, both involve urban settings, amd both are getting innocent people hurt and killed.