ISSUE OF HOMOSEXUALITY

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No. I'm attracted to both sexes, but I prefer women.

to many religious people, you can choose one sex for marriage, because sex is only ok in marriage and it must be to the opposite sex. if you can find ANY happiness with the opposite sex, then you can choose (that's what THEY say).

the worry that my group is raising: even as society goes to greater freedom to associate and marry under law, there is also greater social pressure to conform by seeing the hetero norm as feasible for any person. thus, if everyone is bi (even a little bi) then everyone can "choose" to be straight.

if this were only a philosophical debate, it would not be as dangerous. the so-called trans-gay therapy i spoke of seems outlandish, doesn't it? who would do this? who would hurt an innocent man or woman who went, invited, to a party to socialize and meet new friends? trans-gay therapy can be given in secrecy. yet, there is subtle evidence, and apocryphal evidence that this is happening.

religious parents who are rich and unhappy with their gay child may one day visit a church. they approach the altar and in tears whisper a prayer that their gay son be turned straight at any cost other than taking his life. they then make a sizable donation to the church and walk away. someone who has been listening on a microphone system in the church makes notes and issues some kind of contract to "save" the boy. weeks later, the boy seems to get new friends who are emissaries of the church....

 

[chevron1]

Oh hell no. Science had a long and tough battle trying to unshackle itself from that dead weight already. Why - now that science is accelerating at a greater pace than ever - would we want to hitch it right back up to religion?

Because people are dying over religious differences. The devoted faithful are very faithful and they have often given up so much of themselves to worship, they are gravely offended if any affronts them with different religion. this offense must never be underestimated. that little protestant old lady who brought delicious cakes to a Mormon bake sale might have sprinkled a little DRANO in the batter to let them secretly know how she feels about Mormons ultimately. she might be "batty" but what of the Tsarnaevs? How could two young brothers end up batty? For all the world could see, they were normal boys until a few years ago. And what of the young women who leave the safety and comfort of the US and UK to join ISIS and speak of jihad?

Centuries ago, you could be burned at the stake for saying that the world was round. Now, we have proof and no one disputes it. Provable religion is the salvation for religious strife.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because people are dying over religious differences. The devoted faithful are very faithful and they have often given up so much of themselves to worship, they are gravely offended if any affronts them with different religion. this offense must never be underestimated. that little protestant old lady who brought delicious cakes to a Mormon bake sale might have sprinkled a little DRANO in the batter to let them secretly know how she feels about Mormons ultimately. she might be "batty" but what of the Tsarnaevs? How could two young brothers end up batty? For all the world could see, they were normal boys until a few years ago. And what of the young women who leave the safety and comfort of the US and UK to join ISIS and speak of jihad?

Centuries ago, you could be burned at the stake for saying that the world was round. Now, we have proof and no one disputes it. Provable religion is the salvation for religious strife.

I think a much better and potentially more workable solution is secularisation. Hitching religion to science won't make religion better, all it will do is make science worse. Let science get on with being science, and leave religion out of it - let the religious (and those who aren't religious but are interested in constructively debating religious issues) deal with tackling the problem of conflicts between religious differences. I remain slightly optimistic that eventually religious hatred will erode as secularism, tolerance and education spread.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As I mentioned, slavery is just one of many evils men have visited on other humans. In due time, God will end all such slavery forever, IMO. (Romans 8:21) but we will always be slaves of God. So, no, I am not for one human being the slave of another. And again, this is way off topic.

If god is so concerned about slavery, why did he permit it in the first place? Why are there laws that permit slavery? If he was going to end it, why was one of the 10 commandments not "Thou shalt not own slaves?"
Also, I am not a slave of god. Once I was, but the shackles and chains were cast off, and after I walked away I haven't looked back.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It simply isn't true that homosexuals cannot change their behavior and desires. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) God purposed sex to be enjoyed within marriage. The perversion of sex has resulted in great harm to mankind, IMO.

First, I tried for at least 15 years to pray the gay away. I'm not one to do anything half-assed either, so I war full force in my faith and trust in the deity I was brought up to believe existed.

Didn't happen. I left the church because the misogyny and the homophobia was too much for me to handle. I embraced my bisexuality as natural, found peace and happiness, and 20 years after leaving the church, I'd rather stick my hand in a blender than go back. I'm a much much happier woman not being enmeshed in dehumanization.

It's already around me culturally, though, with the culture still sexist and homophobic. It's changing, though it's slow. We have ways to go.

Second, all this "purpose of sex" talk is what has caused great harm to humans around the world. Resulting in spousal rape, sexual assault, genital mutilation, child brides, and second class citizenship for women and girls around the world. People may see an institution as more valuable than the lives and safety of women and girls around the world, but I see the reverse as having more importance.

And this is all with the assumption of everybody being naturally heterosexual on the planet. That's false, and then building on that idea that same sex marriage is a perversion of what a followers of a deity claim to have intended shows how fragile the argument is when we see and witness countless non-heterosexuals engage in meaningful, loving, respectful, monogamous, long term relationships as much as heterosexuals.

 

[Marisa]

As I mentioned, slavery is just one of many evils men have visited on other humans. In due time, God will end all such slavery forever, IMO. (Romans 8:21) but we will always be slaves of God. So, no, I am not for one human being the slave of another. And again, this is way off topic.

He's GOD. If he's as powerful and as benevolent as you want us to believe he can wipe out slavery with a command. Again, HE'S GOD, FFS.

 

[Marisa]

It simply isn't true that homosexuals cannot change their behavior and desires. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) God purposed sex to be enjoyed within marriage. The perversion of sex has resulted in great harm to mankind, IMO.

Do you understand the difference between behaviors, which are actions we consciously choose, and orientation, which we do NOT consciously choose? I'm going to go ahead and assume you don't, based on this comment of yours. Additionally, calling something "perverse" is a personal opinion. That you believe it's god's personal opinion does not give it any more weight than me believing only I am responsible for my opinions gives mine. You are using god to validate your own uncomfortableness with homosexuality. How do I know this? Because slavery.

 

[chevron1]

I think a much better and potentially more workable solution is secularisation. Hitching religion to science won't make religion better, all it will do is make science worse. Let science get on with being science, and leave religion out of it - let the religious (and those who aren't religious but are interested in constructively debating religious issues) deal with tackling the problem of conflicts between religious differences. I remain slightly optimistic that eventually religious hatred will erode as secularism, tolerance and education spread.

even that solution is not workable because they will continue to fight if the side that wins the secular model has no proof of existence or reality. science is proof. in the old days, religion was science. you would pray for rain, for snow, for long life. today you see the meteorologist and your doctor. let's put religion in that same boat. christian atheism is a secular model that could win the day today but many revile it.

Don't Believe In Belief

Christian Atheism As A Model For Secularism

 

[Marisa]

even that solution is not workable because they will continue to fight if the side that wins the secular model has no proof of existence or reality. science is proof. in the old days, religion was science. you would pray for rain, for snow, for long life. today you see the meteorologist and your doctor. let's put religion in that same boat. christian atheism is a secular model that could win the day today but many revile it.

Don't Believe In Belief

Christian Atheism As A Model For Secularism

Why should I follow a guy who tells me to sell everything I own and buy a sword? A guy who said he didn't come to bring peace? A guy who says if I'm not willing to leave my husband and my child I'm not worthy of him? These are pathetic morals, a 3 year old could do better.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

even that solution is not workable because they will continue to fight if the side that wins the secular model has no proof of existence or reality.

Do you think that there could only ever be true peace when everyone agrees on absolutely everything? Secularism is perfectly workable, because it promotes understanding and tolerance of all beliefs and views, and secular society provides a common ground under which conflicting religions can commune.

science is proof. in the old days, religion was science. you would pray for rain, for snow, for long life. today you see the meteorologist and your doctor. let's put religion in that same boat.

You can't. Since unshackling itself from religion, science has contributed far more to the moral, social and economical development of human society than religion ever has or ever will. Religion fundamentally relies on beliefs and faith over reasoning and facts. If you require religion to have proof, you annihilate religion.

christian atheism is a secular model that could win the day today but many revile it.

Don't Believe In Belief

Christian Atheism As A Model For Secularism

The moment you start requiring people to all adhere to a specific moral structure in order to ascertain peace is the moment you walk into a brick wall. It isn't going to happen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

even that solution is not workable because they will continue to fight if the side that wins the secular model has no proof of existence or reality. science is proof. in the old days, religion was science. you would pray for rain, for snow, for long life. today you see the meteorologist and your doctor. let's put religion in that same boat. christian atheism is a secular model that could win the day today but many revile it.

Don't Believe In Belief

Christian Atheism As A Model For Secularism

How is "Christian Atheism" a good model for a secular state when a lot of people don't give a damn about Christian virtues, and especially when Christians themselves have such little agreement on their own virtues?

 

[chevron1]

Do you think that there could only ever be true peace when everyone agrees on absolutely everything? Secularism is perfectly workable, because it promotes understanding and tolerance of all beliefs and views, and secular society provides a common ground under which conflicting religions can commune.

conflicting religions will never truly commune. look this forum. you can't even agree on christian scripture! how do you expect to be tolerant of outside scripture?

You can't. Since unshackling itself from religion, science has contributed far more to the moral, social and economical development of human society than religion ever has or ever will. Religion fundamentally relies on beliefs and faith over reasoning and facts. If you require religion to have proof, you annihilate religion.

no, science has always worked w/religion. you could not even fly to the moon unless the religious had purpose for it, because it is their tax money too.

The moment you start requiring people to all adhere to a specific moral structure in order to ascertain peace is the moment you walk into a brick wall. It isn't going to happen.

what you do think secularism is if not requiring people to adhere to a specific moral structure?

 

[Marisa]

no, science has always worked w/religion. you could not even fly to the moon unless the religious had purpose for it, because it is their tax money too.

Do you think you get to pick what projects your tax dollars fund? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't ask for mine to go to Exxon as a subsidy.

 

[chevron1]

Why should I follow a guy who tells me to sell everything I own and buy a sword? A guy who said he didn't come to bring peace? A guy who says if I'm not willing to leave my husband and my child I'm not worthy of him? These are pathetic morals, a 3 year old could do better.

the only way to buy a sword is from a sword dealer. i don't sell swords but i do own a chi sword that is invisible but wields great power. anyone can get one. all you have to do is wave your hand until it appears in your hand. nor is it remotely important to leave your husband or child to go to the fountain of your own reality. we all go to the fountain whenever we are thirsty. a 3 year old could do better only if mommy were willing to shag daddy on the beach with no seashells.

 

[chevron1]

Do you think you get to pick what projects your tax dollars fund? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't ask for mine to go to Exxon as a subsidy.

you can always refuse to pay your taxes and force them to house you in jail for a few months. that will teach a lesson they won't forget.

 

[Marisa]

the only way to buy a sword is from a sword dealer. i don't sell swords but i do own a chi sword that is invisible but wields great power. anyone can get one. all you have to do is wave your hand until it appears in your hand. nor is it remotely important to leave your husband or child to go to the fountain of your own reality. we all go to the fountain whenever we are thirsty. a 3 year old could do better only if mommy were willing to shag daddy on the beach with no seashells.

Are you being snarky with me now? It's hard to tell because so many of your posts contain comparitively equal amounts of this type of word salad.

 

[Marisa]

you can always refuse to pay your taxes and force them to house you in jail for a few months. that will teach a lesson they won't forget.

Way to completely miss the point. Were you busy playing with your invisible sword?

 

[rusra02]

While I respect your right to believe as you would like to, I'm left wondering why you adhere to that one precept but ignore others, such as was pointed out by Father Heathen. Can you explain why you adhere to this one particular verse and ignore the others that clearly were as much a part of the OT as what you point out? Or is your belief that myopic to fit your agenda?

What other verses do you refer to?

 

[JoStories]

conflicting religions will never truly commune. look this forum. you can't even agree on christian scripture! how do you expect to be tolerant of outside scripture?

I am. But what I don't like is someone telling me I'm somehow diseased or some other word...pick the one that suits you, telling me how to live my life. You tell me to 'choose' the opposite sex. how is that any of your business who I fall in love with? Shall I then dictate whom you may love?

 

[JoStories]

What other verses do you refer to?

The ones about shellfish, pork, owning slaves, having multipe concubines and so on. Its always interesting how you people forget those and adhere like a dog with a bone to the aforementioned one that is the topic of this thread