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It's not a problem for animals to have sex with the same sex

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I know you are very convinced of your opinion, so I will be very gentle. I have no wish to pick a fight with you.

1. No, if a person's sexual orientation is not genetic, it does NOT necessarily mean that they would have to choose. For example, I have known women who have been severely traumatized by childhood molestation. Whereas before the molests, they had typical straight thought associations, they came to associate men with the monsters who brutalized them and cannot have normal sexual relationships with them. Their normal heterosexual development was arrested and diverted. They have LEARNED to substitute lesbian love in its place. I have met these women, so don't tell me they don't exist. They have NO CHOICE in this matter, even though there is no genetic interplay. This is only one of many examples I could have given.
How do you know that they had typical sexual orientation and development, since you are claiming they were molested prior to maturity and the expression of sexuality? What evidence do you have for this? Have all the women you have met that were the victims of molestation turned to lesbianism? What if you have only met the percentage of these women that would have developed that aspect of sexuality anyway?
2. There are many reasons why a person can be gay due to biology that is not genetic. For example, it could be womb environment (hormones) at specific times during fetal development. This would not be a genetic thing, but an epigenetic condition or something to do with the mother. Surely you can see how this could be a possibility?
Biological reasons may not all be genetic, but this does not indicate a choice or learning on the part of the person expressing the trait. Epigenetic traits are associated with the packaging of the genes.
3. In most cases, people are set in their orientation just as you have described. But that is not true for all people. Some people are sexually amorphous, and have gone back and forth between one orientation and another. This is particularly common among females. We have many testimonies to this effect. I remember listening to a leader member of the LGBT community be interviewed by Dennis Prager -- she was very up front about how she had once been thoroughly straight, and had changed to being a lesbian in her college years. Those who are more amorphous are most prone to the influence of modern politics and media cullture--they are now more likely to develop a gay orientation where in ages past they would simply have defaulted to a straight orientation.
Being amorphous sexually or changing orientation at some point later in life does not mean that the condition is not biological. It may be that the person was following societal constraints and later felt no need to be constrained and expressed the true nature of their sexuality.
4. Your "genetic theory" is disproven by basic science. If genes were the end all and be all of homosexuality, then an identical twin who is gay would always have a gay twin. Right? Yet that is clearly not the case.
I would call it an hypothesis and it is not without scientific support. There is evidence that it is genetic in nature in some instances, just not every instance. In twins it could be an epigenetic trait expressed in one, but not the other.

While it may not be entirely genetic, that basis cannot be discarded. In any case, there are many instances where sexuality is not a choice. It was not a choice for me. I just like girls. I never even thought about it.

I'm not even saying that there is no genetic component. All I'm saying is that it is more complicated than ascribing being gay to one factor alone.
Ok. I would agree. It is complicated. But the evidence does support that some of it is not by choice, but based on biological parameters.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Ok. I would agree. It is complicated. But the evidence does support that some of it is not by choice, but based on biological parameters.
We are in agreement then.

Children can show orientation by their fantasy life. If a young girl fantasizes about marrying a handsome prince, that's a good indication of being straight in the future, or at least bi.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
We are in agreement then.

Children can show orientation by their fantasy life. If a young girl fantasizes about marrying a handsome prince, that's a good indication of being straight in the future, or at least bi.
But that does not answer the question. How do you know your examples are representative? Do you have evidence for their pre-abuse fantasies?
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
We are in agreement then.

Children can show orientation by their fantasy life. If a young girl fantasizes about marrying a handsome prince, that's a good indication of being straight in the future, or at least bi.
We are in agreement that it is complicated. Differences are noted in my previous post.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
It doesn't matter if they are representative. It only matters that there are some.
But you are missing the problem with your examples. You cannot eliminate the possibility that their homosexuality did not arise for biological reasons that are apart from the reasons you claim. I am not saying your examples don't show that. I am saying that you haven't shown it.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But you are missing the problem with your examples. You cannot eliminate the possibility that their homosexuality did not arise for biological reasons that are apart from the reasons you claim. I am not saying your examples don't show that. I am saying that you haven't shown it.
I'm not dismissing that at all. I listed a good many reasons, but I never claimed that those were the only reasons, specifically stated that genetics could play SOME role, etc. My only point was that stating that ALL cases of homosexuality are entirely due to genetics is a simplistic, wrongheaded notion -- that in reality it is far more complicated, a point you agreed with.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not dismissing that at all. I listed a good many reasons, but I never claimed that those were the only reasons, specifically stated that genetics could play SOME role, etc. My only point was that stating that ALL cases of homosexuality are entirely due to genetics is a simplistic, wrongheaded notion -- that in reality it is far more complicated, a point you agreed with.
That is fine, but your first point about the victims of molestation says nothing about it for or against. Not without knowing if the sample is biased.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not dismissing that at all. I listed a good many reasons, but I never claimed that those were the only reasons, specifically stated that genetics could play SOME role, etc. My only point was that stating that ALL cases of homosexuality are entirely due to genetics is a simplistic, wrongheaded notion -- that in reality it is far more complicated, a point you agreed with.
But agreeing it is complicated is not pointing to a dominant source or saying that all sources of variation are equal or that genetics does not dominate. If a genetic basis was the result of 75% of all instances of homosexuality, it would still be wrong to say that is the only mechanism for the variation, but it would also be misleading to claim it without qualifying it.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But agreeing it is complicated is not pointing to a dominant source or saying that all sources of variation are equal or that genetics does not dominate. If a genetic basis was the result of 75% of all instances of homosexuality, it would still be wrong to say that is the only mechanism for the variation, but it would also be misleading to claim it without qualifying it.
Genetics plays a role in some cases. It is not THE reason for any case. It is part of an overall interplay of reasons. There is NO "gay gene."
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Genetics plays a role in some cases. It is not THE reason for any case. It is part of an overall interplay of reasons. There is NO "gay gene."
That is not my point. You made some claims based on evidence you were adamant about, but you evidence does not support your point or at least you have not shown that it has. I am just pointing out a fact.

If I were to present your claims and use your "evidence" at a meeting, it would be immediately pointed out that my first point--your first point--does not demonstrate what is claimed due to poor sampling and bias.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
Why, when we think more about morality have stronger internalized moral codes than the religious?

If you have a pre-written list of dos and don'ts, is there's really any need to study other moral codes or think much about right and wrong?
Without the internalized morality of atheists, the religious are precariously balanced, so prefer to stay on level ground.

Someone with crutches has no need to develop the complex, neurological circuitry needed for good balance. Should the religious be expected to navigate morally complex situations, or remain upright on ethically unfamiliar ground? Their morality is simplistic and deontological.
ummmmm what?
 

Earthtank

Active Member
Excuse me? There IS no "sexual act of homosexuality." Heterosexual couples engage in exactly the same types of sexual acts as homosexuals. For that matter, lesbians don't engage in the "sexual act of homosexuality" to which I believe you are referring.

You could, however, know about some prevalent sexual act that is exclusive to homosexuals (both male and female) that cannot be engaged in by heterosexuals? Could you please let us know what that is? Thanks.
sexual act of homosexuality = same sex. Not sure how that so hard for your to figure out.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That is not my point. You made some claims based on evidence you were adamant about, but you evidence does not support your point or at least you have not shown that it has. I am just pointing out a fact.

If I were to present your claims and use your "evidence" at a meeting, it would be immediately pointed out that my first point--your first point--does not demonstrate what is claimed due to poor sampling and bias.
I obviously disagree, but let's engage in a logical, reasonable manner.

List the points you believe this is true about, and the reasons I have given for them. Then be explicit what you believe the fallacy of my argument are. Please do this one point at a time.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I obviously disagree, but let's engage in a logical, reasonable manner.

List the points you believe this is true about, and the reasons I have given for them. Then be explicit what you believe the fallacy of my argument are. Please do this one point at a time.
Disagree with what. You used as evidence something that does not have the qualifications to meet the standard of evidence as you used it.

You claimed that you have met women that were abused and have since assumed a lesbian sexuality. You cited this as evidence that it is a choice. However, you did not present evidence that lesbianism is the predominant choice of abused females and you have not eliminated the possibility that the women you claim to have met were not going to be natural lesbians to begin with.

Your piece of evidence is biased and suffers from sampling errors.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I obviously disagree, but let's engage in a logical, reasonable manner.

List the points you believe this is true about, and the reasons I have given for them. Then be explicit what you believe the fallacy of my argument are. Please do this one point at a time.
Straw man arguments will not alter the flawed nature of your first piece of evidence. Was that one point at a time easy enough for you?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Disagree with what. You used as evidence something that does not have the qualifications to meet the standard of evidence as you used it.
And I disagree with that statement. When a person says they disagree, they are referring to what you previously remarked.

You claimed that you have met women that were abused and have since assumed a lesbian sexuality. You cited this as evidence that it is a choice. However, you did not present evidence that lesbianism is the predominant choice of abused females and you have not eliminated the possibility that the women you claim to have met were not going to be natural lesbians to begin with.

Your piece of evidence is biased and suffers from sampling errors.
As I previously stated in this thread, I do not have to prove that all lesbians are environmentally formed, or even that this is predominant. I only have to show that SOME are. And I did. It makes the case that is SOME cases, environment is a determining factor, or at least one of the determining factors. My evidence is fine.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Genetics plays a role in some cases. It is not THE reason for any case. It is part of an overall interplay of reasons. There is NO "gay gene."
Giant study links DNA variants to same-sex behavior

"Overall, he said the findings reinforce the idea that human sexual behavior is complex and can’t be pinned on any simple constellation of DNA. “I’m pleased to announce there is no ‘gay gene,’” Ganna said. “Rather, ‘nonheterosexuality’ is in part
influenced by many tiny genetic effects.”
Ganna told Science that researchers have yet to tie the genetic variants to actual genes, and it’s not even clear whether they sit within coding or noncoding stretches of DNA. Trying to pin down exactly what these DNA regions do will be among the team’s difficult next steps."

Giant study links DNA variants to same-sex behavior
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Straw man arguments will not alter the flawed nature of your first piece of evidence. Was that one point at a time easy enough for you?
I see you are not willing to engage in a reasoned argument. Okay, your choice. This is what happens when a person's accusations are groundless.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
And I disagree with that statement. When a person says they disagree, they are referring to what you previously remarked.

As I previously stated in this thread, I do not have to prove that all lesbians are environmentally formed, or even that this is predominant. I only have to show that SOME are. And I did. It makes the case that is SOME cases, environment is a determining factor, or at least one of the determining factors. My evidence is fine.
But you did not show that those women became lesbians by choice. That is the point. You only think you did, but you have been shown to be wrong.

You cannot show evidence that would differentiate those examples as being by choice. It was a poor use of evidence resulting from confirmation bias.
 
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