Its not euthanasia, its suicide.

[Twilight Hue]

She was not "perfectly healthy".
Euthanasia laws don't allow "perfectly healthy" people to get euthanasia.

Do you think that I, as a reasonably healthy person with no diagnosis of anything and no resulting demonstrable suffering, could just go and get clearance for euthanasia?


Your personal beliefs are noted.

Its not a terminal condition unlike those that euthanasia falls under.

It's a palliative condition, and it's not a belief. It's being factual about it.

 

[Nakosis]

I can't find any major news reporting this, and I hope to god it isn't true, but several secondary media sources are running with this recent story involving a perfectly healthy woman who was told her depression is incurable and she will never ever get better, and will be voluntarily killing herself next month at the time this story is published.

MSN

I'm an advocate of euthanasia, but this doesn't sound right as I've never heard of any incurable mental illness aside from mental retardation or some other issue involving a person's brain where their behavior is severely compromised.

For me this is suicide and not euthanasia , but I also feel if a person wants to end their life, it's their business when all is said and done. Still , I feel this is a really bad decision and I hope , if true, this gets averted.

There is more of a stigma attached to suicide than euthanasia. I suppose some people simply feel if a person wants to "off" themselves, they ought to have that right.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Its not a terminal condition unlike those that euthanasia falls under.

This is incorrect.
"Terminal" is not a condition for euthanasia.

From: What Is Euthanasia? Types, Legal Status, Facts, Controversy, and

Assisted suicide is sometimes called physician-assisted suicide (PAS). PAS means a doctor knowingly helps someone end their life. This person is likely experiencing persistent and unending suffering. They may have also received a terminally ill diagnosis. Their doctor will determine the most effective, painless method.


For the netherlands specifically: Euthanasia, assisted suicide and non-resuscitation on request in the Netherlands

Euthanasia and assisted suicide are legal only if the criteria laid down in the Dutch Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide (Review Procedures) Act are fully observed. Only then is the physician concerned immune from criminal prosecution. Requests for euthanasia often come from patients experiencing unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement. Their request must be made earnestly and with full conviction. They see euthanasia as the only escape from the situation. However, patients have no absolute right to euthanasia and doctors no absolute duty to perform it.


There is no mention of any requirement that there needs to be a diagnosis of terminal illness.

You might be confusing it with the law in certain US states.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is incorrect.
"Terminal" is not a condition for euthanasia.

From: What Is Euthanasia? Types, Legal Status, Facts, Controversy, and

Assisted suicide is sometimes called physician-assisted suicide (PAS). PAS means a doctor knowingly helps someone end their life. This person is likely experiencing persistent and unending suffering. They may have also received a terminally ill diagnosis. Their doctor will determine the most effective, painless method.


For the netherlands specifically: Euthanasia, assisted suicide and non-resuscitation on request in the Netherlands

Euthanasia and assisted suicide are legal only if the criteria laid down in the Dutch Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide (Review Procedures) Act are fully observed. Only then is the physician concerned immune from criminal prosecution. Requests for euthanasia often come from patients experiencing unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement. Their request must be made earnestly and with full conviction. They see euthanasia as the only escape from the situation. However, patients have no absolute right to euthanasia and doctors no absolute duty to perform it.


There is no mention of any requirement that there needs to be a diagnosis of terminal illness.

You might be confusing it with the law in certain US states.

Again mental illness is not a valid reason to commit suicide and most doctors are against this.

Peer reviewed journal....

Euthanasia and assisted suicide in patients with personality disorders: a review of current practice and challenges - Borderline Personality Disorder and Emotion Dysregulation

Background Over the last two decades an increasing number of countries have legalized euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide (EAS) leading to considerable debate over the inherent ethical dilemmas. Increasing numbers of people with personality disorders, faced with unbearable suffering, have...

bpded.biomedcentral.com

 

[McBell]

Again mental illness is not a valid reason to commit suicide and most doctors are against this.

Peer reviewed journal....

Euthanasia and assisted suicide in patients with personality disorders: a review of current practice and challenges - Borderline Personality Disorder and Emotion Dysregulation

Background Over the last two decades an increasing number of countries have legalized euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide (EAS) leading to considerable debate over the inherent ethical dilemmas. Increasing numbers of people with personality disorders, faced with unbearable suffering, have...

bpded.biomedcentral.com

Your presented article does not support your claims.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Your presented article does not support your claims.

Yes it does.

 

[LadyJane]

The end game here is to ease human suffering so it's hard to know what to make of the opinion that physical ailments somehow outrank psychological ones.

What we have learned over the years is that mental anguish can be just as crippling as physiological pain. Maybe even more. Hence the rise in requests for euthanasia. These systems are connected in a way that makes isolating one from another nearly impossible. It's the bodymind.

It's sometimes easier to have a place to point and know why it hurts. If you have arthritis and it's raining and your knees are killing you the brain can understand that. Considerably less fathomable when the problems reside in your brain. Pain medication will take the edge off but you will still have some degree of pain. Antidepressants will only take you so far but you may still be profoundly out of sorts.

Chronic pain creates mental torture and mental torture creates chronic pain. Patients and doctors are doing the best they can and research is only as effective as stigmatized issues continue to be. There is no fix. There is no cure. And we all have different pain thresholds. Is it really so hard to put yourself in another person's shoes?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well, for what are you advocating then? I mean, you are allowing for people to commit suicide and psychologically healthy people don't do this, by definition. So I don't know what else your idea is.

How do you measure another person's suffering?

 

[Rival]

How do you measure another person's suffering?

You don't; but you can measure physical diseases like cancers which we can consider terminal, sometimes with predicted death dates.

The problem I'm seeing here is suffering, as if as a species we see it as our job to eliminate suffering and make it our goal to achieve happiness/pleasure as some kind of standard state. This is a 20th century luxury. I just fail to understand the idea that we must not only mitigate suffering, which is usually fine, but almost out right eliminate it (which is what this suicide is claiming to do). My more honest answer would be to accept suffering and find more adaptive coping mechanisms. This is where religion came in so useful before, as meditation, ritual, prayer and community can really help one deal with these sufferings, but now our idea seems to be that all suffering is undeserved and we're being somehow hard done by life itself. So you have a mood disorder, big deal (I have one), so you're depressed, you're xyz. There are far, far more productive ways of dealing with this, but moderns don't seem to be particularly attuned to them and think the first and best route is medicine, which has, historically and now, often been the worst form of treatment for mental illness.

Suicide rates are higher in non-religious populations and a key reason for that is lack of community, lack of friends etc. This is a social issue that must be dealt with.

I never believe the answer is suicide.

 

[McBell]

Yes it does.

Please copy paste the parts from your source you think support both your claims.
Because i do not see either claim being supported by the article you presented.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You don't; but you can measure physical diseases like cancers which we can consider terminal, sometimes with predicted death dates.

The problem I'm seeing here is suffering, as if as a species we see it as our job to eliminate suffering and make it our goal to achieve happiness/pleasure as some kind of standard state. This is a 20th century luxury. I just fail to understand the idea that we must not only mitigate suffering, which is usually fine, but almost out right eliminate it (which is what this suicide is claiming to do). My more honest answer would be to accept suffering and find more adaptive coping mechanisms. This is where religion came in so useful before, as meditation, ritual, prayer and community can really help one deal with these sufferings, but now our idea seems to be that all suffering is undeserved and we're being somehow hard done by life itself. So you have a mood disorder, big deal (I have one), so you're depressed, you're xyz. There are far, far more productive ways of dealing with this, but moderns don't seem to be particularly attuned to them and think the first and best route is medicine, which has, historically and now, often been the worst form of treatment for mental illness.

Suicide rates are higher in non-religious populations and a key reason for that is lack of community, lack of friends etc. This is a social issue that must be dealt with.

I never believe the answer is suicide.

Perhaps, but many have moved on from the religion perspective - life being precious and all that, even given to us - and where they simply look at what it is about their lives that might make exiting a better option - rather than continuing in some pointless existence of suffering, whatever that might be. If I was going to get dementia for example, which my mother had and suffered from for a number of years, I would prefer to exit early rather than endure what she seemed to suffer. She just seemed to give up actually as no cause was found when she did die.

I just think we should accept what people want to do even though we should obviously try as hard as we can to eliminate any causes of suffering that might make them feel the only way out was euthanasia.

As I said, how can any know what she is suffering, given she has several issues and which seemingly cannot be controlled by medication.

 

[Rival]

Perhaps, but many have moved on from the religion perspective - life being precious and all that, even given to us - and where they simply look at what it is about their lives that might make exiting a better option - rather than continuing in some pointless existence of suffering, whatever that might be. If I was going to get dementia for example, which my mother had and suffered from for a number of years, I would prefer to exit early rather than endure what she seemed to suffer. She just seemed to give up actually as no cause was found when she did die.

I just think we should accept what people want to do even though we should obviously try as hard as we can to eliminate any causes of suffering that might make them feel the only way out was euthanasia.

As I said, how can any know what she is suffering, given she has several issues and which seemingly cannot be controlled by medication.

Do you think the idea that life is pointless may be half the cause of the suffering and suicidality?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Do you think the idea that life is pointless may be half the cause of the suffering and suicidality?

It might be if life is all just suffering perhaps. How would I know her level of suffering?

 

[Rival]

It might be if life is all just suffering perhaps. How would I know her level of suffering?

Do levels matter? If we both had the same illness we would rate our suffering differently given we are different people.

She can change her outlook as many formerly suicidal people have, but she lives in a society that tells her happiness is the ultimate goal, and no-one can reach that. If you accept the lack of happiness and the reality of lifelong suffering which you yourself need to learn to mitigate and inject some pleasure into, you'll do better, as we see many posters here have done.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Do levels matter? If we both had the same illness we would rate our suffering differently given we are different people.

She can change her outlook as many formerly suicidal people have, but she lives in a society that tells her happiness is the ultimate goal, and no-one can reach that. If you accept the lack of happiness and the reality of lifelong suffering which you yourself need to learn to mitigate and inject some pleasure into, you'll do better, as we see many posters here have done.

I just think it is difficult to know how she feels, given she has autism and a borderline personality disorder apart from depression. Such that even if some cases are more clear-cut I can't see a reason to condemn her for her decision to end her life if she feels there is nothing ahead in her future to make life any better. And I'm sure there are plenty who are not into the 'happiness' myth - me for example.

 

[Rival]

I just think it is difficult to know how she feels, given she has autism and a borderline personality disorder apart from depression. Such that even if some cases are more clear-cut I can't see a reason to condemn her for her decision to end her life if she feels there is nothing ahead in her future to make life any better. And I'm sure there are plenty who are not into the 'happiness' myth - me for example.

If someone in his late 20s believes he has no more chance at a fulfilling life, I think that person has incredibly poor reflection skills or is expecting things to be better immediately. She seems to want to quit before 30, when she's barely even lived, so I think she needs to do a whole lot more reflecting on this.

 

[Mock Turtle]

If someone in his late 20s believes he has no more chance at a fulfilling life, I think that person has incredibly poor reflection skills or is expecting things to be better immediately. She seems to want to quit before 30, when she's barely even lived, so I think she needs to do a whole lot more reflecting on this.

Perhaps, but I don't know anything as to her life already. It is rather young to have such feelings and I do feel sad for her.

 

[Rival]

but I don't know anything as to her life already

Folks here keep saying this as though it matters.

She's up and running, she has a boyfriend, she has a home, pets, her health and presumably a job.

I strongly suspect she's not suffering all that much given she seems to be able to run her life well enough.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Folks here keep saying this as though it matters.

She's up and running, she has a boyfriend, she has a home, pets, her health and presumably a job.

I strongly suspect she's not suffering all that much given she seems to be able to run her life well enough.

Yeah, but going through the motions might be what is actually happening. I just can't put myself in her place.

 

[Rival]

Yeah, but going through the motions might be what is actually happening. I just can't put myself in her place.

I just wonder when someone with a spouse, a home, a pet, a job and her health thinks death would be better.

This makes absolutely no sense.

She has the will and reasoning skills to deal with her metal issues and imo is choosing not to.