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I've Sacrificed my belief in Evolution for Religion

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Geneticists do know that macro-evolution has occurred. The ERV's that @Thermos aquaticus mentioned alone are more than ample evidence of our relationship to other apes.
I can't figure out what it is you actually believe. Previously you seem to deny that one type of animal can become another by saying cats can't become dogs, etc......It now sounds like you believe they can. First let state what it is I am actually saying. My claim is there is no known example of one group of creatures that can interbreed evolving into a different group of creatures that can interbreed. No one ever has or ever will observe this. If you disagree your going to have to post a link to a study where this has been observed. Merely mentioning another poster to this forum is not evidence. I have requested evidence of this for years and not a single example has ever been produced. Good luck.

Instead of denying evidence perhaps you should be asking questions about it? It is not unusual for those that do not understand a subject to be unconvinced. I have seen that with many different subjects and have been on the wrong side myself at times. Finding out why one is wrong is how one learns.
I have no need of denying what has never been produced. Just as you have done here, no one who claims proof of this exists will ever actually produce it. It takes longer than humans have even existed for one kind of creature to become another kind. Why would you even think it could ever be observed?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I can't figure out what it is you actually believe. Previously you seem to deny that one type of animal can become another by saying cats can't become dogs, etc......It now sounds like you believe they can. First let state what it is I am actually saying. My claim is there is no known example of one group of creatures that can interbreed evolving into a different group of creatures that can interbreed. No one ever has or ever will observe this. If you disagree your going to have to post a link to a study where this has been observed. Merely mentioning another poster to this forum is not evidence. I have requested evidence of this for years and not a single example has ever been produced. Good luck.

Part of your problem is your ignorance of how evolution works. Once again, there is no "change of kind" you and I are both still apes. In fact we belong to the family of Great Apes along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans. And I assume you want an example of a species that evolved into two groups that could not interbreed. ring species are an example of this in action. Here is a link, and asking for links is a good idea:

Discovering a ring species

A split occurs in a population and when they meet again they can no longer breed. If the species at the top of the split did not exist they would merely look like two different species

I have no need of denying what has never been produced. Just as you have done here, no one who claims proof of this exists will ever actually produce it. It takes longer than humans have even existed for one kind of creature to become another kind. Why would you even think it could ever be observed?

Please the word "kind" is not defined. If you use a poorly defined term of course you can say that something has not been observed. But there are more ways to observe things than directly seeing them. In the sciences the past is observed in multiple ways. One of them is through the fossil record. A single fossil can be thought of as a snapshot in time. With millions of pictures the evolution of life is observable.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes, a poor term that does not match reality.
Change within kinds means that biological change occurs within a groups of creatures that can interbreed. It is a inescapable objective fact that change within interbreeding populations does occur. Then by definition change within kinds does occur. The bible is correct and you are utterly mistaken. Your belief that there is more to evolution than change within kinds (even if it was true) does nothing what so ever to show that change within kinds does not occur. I no longer know what in the world your talking about.



This is merely moving the goal posts. But if lions and tigers and cats are the same "kind" then so are we and other apes, in fact that would be us and all primates.
No, the goal posts are exactly where they began in my original post. Change within breeding populations does occur which is what change within kinds means. If you believe change occurs between kinds that is merely your belief that it does as no one has ever seen this occur. Therefor the bible is perfectly true but it is unknown to anyone if your faith is true. Same goal posts. I have clarified this at least 3 times for you. I can no longer think that you simply don't understand what I am talking about. This is simple stuff.



Macroevolution is evolution at or above the species level and has been directly observed. I repeat, it has been observed. In fact we can see it in action with ring species.
For the last time. My claim is that the only thing that has ever been observed is that biological change occurs within breeding populations, no one has ever observed one breeding population into another. I do not care what arbitrary labels you slap on them, there is proof of the former, belief in the latter is pure faith.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
@Subduction Zone, I am completely out of patience and time for today. You seem to be confused about what my claims actually are and you keep getting taxonomy terms, and biblical doctrine, conflated with observed biological facts. It takes a lot of time to correct all these things so I will have to continue this at a later point. Use the meantime to review my actual claims, try and find some actual proof that one breeding population has ever changed into another breeding population, and try to understand that the vagaries of the English language have no power to determine evolutionary fact.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Change within kinds means that biological change occurs within a groups of creatures that can interbreed. It is a inescapable objective fact that change within interbreeding populations does occur. Then by definition change within kinds does occur. The bible is correct and you are utterly mistaken. Your belief that there is more to evolution than change within kinds (even if it was true) does nothing what so ever to show that change within kinds does not occur. I no longer know what in the world your talking about.

And we have observed evolution beyond that directly. Once gain ring species is an example. The Bible is not "correct" in that. When you have been shown to be wrong you need to admit it if you want people to keep being civil

Perhaps if you did not use undefined terms you would not be so lost. "Kind" has no definition that is not worthless.

No, the goal posts are exactly where they began in my original post. Change within breeding populations does occur which is what change within kinds means. If you believe change occurs between kinds that is merely your belief that it does as no one has ever seen this occur. Therefor the bible is perfectly true but it is unknown to anyone if your faith is true. Same goal posts. I have clarified this at least 3 times for you. I can no longer think that you simply don't understand what I am talking about. This is simple stuff.

And it occurs to the point where they can no longer breed. By your definition they are no longer the same "kind". Please don't keep repeating nonsense such as the Bible is true when it is not. Leave the Bible out of it for now.

For the last time. My claim is that the only thing that has ever been observed is that biological change occurs within breeding populations, no one has ever observed one breeding population into another. I do not care what arbitrary labels you slap on them, there is proof of the former, belief in the latter is pure faith.

Did you read the link on ring species? It shows that you are wrong. And on. You have faith. That is belief without evidence. There are mountains of scientific evidence that support the theory of evolution and no scientific evidence that supports your beliefs.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Subduction Zone, I am completely out of patience and time for today. You seem to be confused about what my claims actually are and you keep getting taxonomy terms, and biblical doctrine, conflated with observed biological facts. It takes a lot of time to correct all these things so I will have to continue this at a later point. Use the meantime to review my actual claims, try and find some actual proof that one breeding population has ever changed into another breeding population, and try to understand that the vagaries of the English language have no power to determine evolutionary fact.


No, I am not the confused one here. I am also not the one that has made errors. You have used terms that you do not understand, such as "macroevolution". Creationists have tried to redefine the term because macroevolution does exist and has been directly observed. The person that coined the phrase is the one that gets to define it and he defined it as evolution at and above the species level:

"Evolution happening on a large scale, e.g. at or above the level of a species, over geologic time resulting in the divergence of taxonomic groups"

Macroevolution - Biology-Online Dictionary

Creationists use to deny that evolution happened even at that level so when shown to be wrong they tried to redefine the term.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So everything that has actually been observed is consistent with the bible.
And this is why it is virtually impossible to have any serious discussion with you. It's "the Bible" or else with you, which simply in and of itself cannot be verified in any way in the area of "creation" because none of us was there at "creation", including the author(s) of Genesis.

I'm a retired anthropologist who came from such paradigm as you are using, and what you are continuing to propose is simply hogwash. Just for starters, I've had subscriptions of Scientific American for over 50 years now, and pretty much in every single issue you'll find an article on evolution of some type, often including genetic information. Even in my introductory biology classes during my undergrad years, we had to learn at least basic genetics.

You want scientific articles dealing with "macro-evolution"? Well, here's just one of many that one can access simply by googling "genetics+ macroevolution": Macroevolution - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics There's many many more.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What is true of matter is not necessarily true about evolution. Just because ice turns into water has nothing at all to do with a cow becoming a whale.
Thanks for demonstrating that you really do not understand the process.

And finally, it you believe that there is some sort of magical wall that prevents micro from becoming macro, please present it. I've given you a link and how to google access other such scientific links, now let's see what you can produce here, 1robin.

You demanded scientific evidence, I produced it, so now it's your turn. My guess is that you'll either not respond or do some song & dance to avoid this request.
 

Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
I've recently committed to rejoining my family's religion (the Jehovah's Witnesses). In doing so I'm obligated to give up my belief in evolution. This is hard for me because I find evolution so logical.

To combat my resistance to rejecting evolution, I've been researching all the objections to evolution and studying all the arguments for creation. It's not working. I can't seem to give up my belief in evolution, despite the fact that it goes against Jehovah's Witness theology.

What should i do?

How do I manipulate my logical facilities so that I can genuinely reject evolution and genuinely accept creation?

You can't or you can lie.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I can't figure out what it is you actually believe. Previously you seem to deny that one type of animal can become another by saying cats can't become dogs, etc......

What we are saying is that a living species will not evolve into another already living species. The descendants of cats will always be cats, but they will be different from the cats alive today. In the same way, humans are still primates. We just happen to be a different species of primate than the one species of primate that founded the entire branch of primates. You don't evolve out of your ancestry.

My claim is there is no known example of one group of creatures that can interbreed evolving into a different group of creatures that can interbreed.

That happens in every generation within every single species. Every generation is genetically different from the previous generation.

I have no need of denying what has never been produced. Just as you have done here, no one who claims proof of this exists will ever actually produce it. It takes longer than humans have even existed for one kind of creature to become another kind. Why would you even think it could ever be observed?

Humans and chimps are in the primate kind, as was our common ancestor. That is just primates turning into primates within the primate kind.

Humans and bears are in the mammal kind, as was our common ancestor. That is just mammals turning into mammals within the mammal kind.

Humans and trout are in the vertebrate kind, as was our common ancestor. That is just vertebrates turning into vertebrates within the vertebrate kind.

Are you starting to see the problem with your claims?
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
How do I manipulate my logical facilities so that I can genuinely reject evolution and genuinely accept creation?
We should *always* believe things which are provably true, and reject things which are provably false. Consider adopting a personna for use when around those having beliefs you don't accept.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
For the record, since making this thread I've received a lot of material debunking evolution that's shifted me from being agnostic on the subject to outrightly suppressing the theory.

I wrote a thread on this site called "Do we control our beliefs?" where I entertain the position of 'doxastic voluntarism' (which is the position that one can employ will to control the beliefs they hold). I want to reject a belief in evolution for many reasons. I don't like the belief in evolution because it makes the world seem cold and cruel. Second I want to be a member without being a hypocrite. Finally the theory conflicts greatly with your theology. Assimilating the theory into your theology would require monumental reinterpretation.

My motivation is to transform myself. I want to 'be all that I can be', so to speak. I want a genuine hope. I want a united fellowship. Is that too much to ask for?

Ah, I see. You wish to be a hapless victim of a cruel confidence scheme. Seems like a strange ambition to me.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You want scientific articles dealing with "macro-evolution"? Well, here's just one of many that one can access simply by googling "genetics+ macroevolution": Macroevolution - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics There's many many more.

I love links as you know so I couldn't help myself.....
ashamed0001.gif


Opening words to your article....."Macroevolution and Behavior (in blue)

Macroevolution results in phenotypic differences that can be observed at the species level or above."

Where is the evidence that phenotypical differences have been observed above the species level?


For example, an appendage or a new behavior for feeding that is not observed in related taxa might be seen as evidence for speciation or higher scale divergence.

"Might be seen as evidence"? Or it "might" not.
ashamed0003.gif


Changes in morphology are much easier to observe over evolutionary time than changes in behavior because morphological structures are preserved in the fossil record.

What is observed in the fossil record that scientists haven't already interpreted to fit their theory? Whatever is "preserved in the fossil record" is the human voices of creatures who can't really tell us much. Scientists can make these fossils say whatever they want them to. Who is going to argue back?
confused0072.gif


The fossil record rarely preserves evidence of behavior, although we can make inferences about how a structure might have been used on the basis of what is known about current morphology.

"We can make inferences about how a structure might have been used"....how? by comparing "what is known about current morphology". So what is morphology? According to Wiki....
  1. the study of the forms of things, in particular:

  2. a particular form, shape, or structure.
So morphology is the assumption of how evolution happened based on what an organism looks like.

So here we have the accepted evolution of a whale depicted in a chart, supposedly based on fossils.

001996f0b92a2ecaded756927e8c374b.png


"Starting about 50 million years ago, they gradually lost their limbs, evolving a body dedicated to swimming rather than walking. Many lineages of whales evolved and thrived and eventually became extinct. All living whales descend from two lineages that split from each other about 40 million years ago, known as baleen whales and toothed whales."

Now I look at that chart and see creatures supposedly millions of years apart with nothing but the suggestion that what started off as a four legged furry land dweller, somehow morphed into all those different creatures over millions of years because scientists saw "similarities" in their skull structure....or more explicitly, in an ear bone.
confused0086.gif

Was pakicetus really the same size as an orcha though? Looks like that is suggested in the chart.

So a small land animal the size of a dog transformed itself into an aquatic creature, about a third the size of a football field....because scientists assumed that this is what must have happened because evolution demands that it did?

How big was pakicetus?.....and yet look at what science assumes happened with whales.....

man+to+whale.jpg


Do you notice something missing in the first graphic that is pictured in the second? The size difference between the first "ancestor" and the last. Compare man and a dog, to the size of a whale. And you have no problem with that? But yet you balk at the mention of a Creator as if it is somehow more of a stretch....?
confused0007.gif



"Because we cannot see how ancient organisms behaved, we must use a phylogenetic approach to studying macroevolution of behavior."

And who invented the phylogenetic approach? Scientists of course....based on what? Evidence or assumption? Since there is no conclusive evidence, it must be based on assumption.


"Tracing the long-term evolution of behavior requires the availability of well-described traits for a group of related species and a reliable phylogeny for the group.

Where do these ideas come from? Who proposed that "well-described traits" for a "related species" must provide a reliable phylogeny? Oh yeah...scientists who already believe that evolution is a given and base all their findings on what they assume must be true.


Fortunately, an increasing number of published phylogenies is making this approach feasible for many taxa.

Published by whom? And who deems it to be feasible? Same people.
confused0067.gif


However, the lability and complexity of behavior, coupled with poor information on its genetic basis, have deterred many systematists from using behavior as a phylogenetically informative character. Yet behavior can be as useful as morphology in constructing phylogenies."

So....."the lability and complexity of behavior, coupled with poor information on its genetic basis, have deterred many systematists from using behavior as a phylogenetically informative character."

Shame about that. But isn't it good to know that "behavior can be as useful as morphology in constructing phylogenies"......:shrug: Reconstruction is such a complex process......but of course, no one constructed the originals.


And finally, it you believe that there is some sort of magical wall that prevents micro from becoming macro, please present it. I've given you a link and how to google access other such scientific links, now let's see what you can produce here

Why can't you provide evidence that the wall does not exist? You are the ones with all the science and the mountains of evidence...? We have faith.....but the lab experiments do not go above species level....so where are these observations in real life? Where do we see among the many varieties of one species, one becoming a different creature altogether? Where is there real evidence that branching ever happened? There is just as much real evidence for individually created organisms IMO.

You demanded scientific evidence, I produced it, so now it's your turn. My guess is that you'll either not respond or do some song & dance to avoid this request.

What did you produce metis? What can science provide apart from an invented scenario that cannot possibly be proven.....so there is the stalemate....one belief system is up against another belief system masquerading as scientific evidence. That is about the only real fact in this topic.
confused0036.gif
 

ecco

Veteran Member
There is some evidence of macroevolution but I do not find it compelling and no one ever has or ever will observe one kind of creature become another kind.
The above is one of the silliest, dumbest, most ignorant arguments against ToE. No one has personally observed it, therefore it couldn't have happened.

No one has personally observed it because no one lived for 1,000,000 years. Duh! Furthermore, if you had been alive for the past 1,000,000 years you would not have been aware of changes occurring because they were so very small.

Have you ever actually seen your fingernails grow? If you haven't actually seen them grow, why do you need to cut them regularly?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In 50 million years cetaceans evolved from dolphin size to great blue whale size. The difference in length can be up to 20 times. Meanwhile in only 10,000 years man has bred dogs that vary in size this much:

tallest-and-shortest-dogs-header_tcm25-398399.jpg


Just think what could happen in a time span 5,000 times as long.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I love links as you know so I couldn't help myself.....
ashamed0001.gif


Opening words to your article....."Macroevolution and Behavior (in blue)

Macroevolution results in phenotypic differences that can be observed at the species level or above."

Where is the evidence that phenotypical differences have been observed above the species level?


For example, an appendage or a new behavior for feeding that is not observed in related taxa might be seen as evidence for speciation or higher scale divergence.

"Might be seen as evidence"? Or it "might" not.
ashamed0003.gif


Changes in morphology are much easier to observe over evolutionary time than changes in behavior because morphological structures are preserved in the fossil record.

What is observed in the fossil record that scientists haven't already interpreted to fit their theory? Whatever is "preserved in the fossil record" is the human voices of creatures who can't really tell us much. Scientists can make these fossils say whatever they want them to. Who is going to argue back?
confused0072.gif


The fossil record rarely preserves evidence of behavior, although we can make inferences about how a structure might have been used on the basis of what is known about current morphology.

"We can make inferences about how a structure might have been used"....how? by comparing "what is known about current morphology". So what is morphology? According to Wiki....
  1. the study of the forms of things, in particular:

  2. a particular form, shape, or structure.
So morphology is the assumption of how evolution happened based on what an organism looks like.

So here we have the accepted evolution of a whale depicted in a chart, supposedly based on fossils.

001996f0b92a2ecaded756927e8c374b.png


"Starting about 50 million years ago, they gradually lost their limbs, evolving a body dedicated to swimming rather than walking. Many lineages of whales evolved and thrived and eventually became extinct. All living whales descend from two lineages that split from each other about 40 million years ago, known as baleen whales and toothed whales."

Now I look at that chart and see creatures supposedly millions of years apart with nothing but the suggestion that what started off as a four legged furry land dweller, somehow morphed into all those different creatures over millions of years because scientists saw "similarities" in their skull structure....or more explicitly, in an ear bone.
confused0086.gif

Was pakicetus really the same size as an orcha though? Looks like that is suggested in the chart.

So a small land animal the size of a dog transformed itself into an aquatic creature, about a third the size of a football field....because scientists assumed that this is what must have happened because evolution demands that it did?

How big was pakicetus?.....and yet look at what science assumes happened with whales.....

man+to+whale.jpg


Do you notice something missing in the first graphic that is pictured in the second? The size difference between the first "ancestor" and the last. Compare man and a dog, to the size of a whale. And you have no problem with that? But yet you balk at the mention of a Creator as if it is somehow more of a stretch....?
confused0007.gif



"Because we cannot see how ancient organisms behaved, we must use a phylogenetic approach to studying macroevolution of behavior."

And who invented the phylogenetic approach? Scientists of course....based on what? Evidence or assumption? Since there is no conclusive evidence, it must be based on assumption.


"Tracing the long-term evolution of behavior requires the availability of well-described traits for a group of related species and a reliable phylogeny for the group.

Where do these ideas come from? Who proposed that "well-described traits" for a "related species" must provide a reliable phylogeny? Oh yeah...scientists who already believe that evolution is a given and base all their findings on what they assume must be true.


Fortunately, an increasing number of published phylogenies is making this approach feasible for many taxa.

Published by whom? And who deems it to be feasible? Same people.
confused0067.gif


However, the lability and complexity of behavior, coupled with poor information on its genetic basis, have deterred many systematists from using behavior as a phylogenetically informative character. Yet behavior can be as useful as morphology in constructing phylogenies."

So....."the lability and complexity of behavior, coupled with poor information on its genetic basis, have deterred many systematists from using behavior as a phylogenetically informative character."

Shame about that. But isn't it good to know that "behavior can be as useful as morphology in constructing phylogenies"......:shrug: Reconstruction is such a complex process......but of course, no one constructed the originals.




Why can't you provide evidence that the wall does not exist? You are the ones with all the science and the mountains of evidence...? We have faith.....but the lab experiments do not go above species level....so where are these observations in real life? Where do we see among the many varieties of one species, one becoming a different creature altogether? Where is there real evidence that branching ever happened? There is just as much real evidence for individually created organisms IMO.



What did you produce metis? What can science provide apart from an invented scenario that cannot possibly be proven.....so there is the stalemate....one belief system is up against another belief system masquerading as scientific evidence. That is about the only real fact in this topic.
confused0036.gif
You can try and deflect this all you want, but there are many articles like I directed someone else to that clearly show through actual science that "macro-evolution" clearly has happened. Your attempt to demean what both scientists and what their findings have been is utterly nonsensical and disingenuous. No matter how many words that you use, that does not cover up the simply fact that you lie about and distort what we know, instead you rely on fictitious teachings from your JW leaders.

So, you can continue to blindly believe in fairy tales and twist about what we as scientists have known for over a century now, but most of us here would rather deal with the reality that the basic ToE is real and well-established, whereas your beliefs have not and cannot be established as being real.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You can try and deflect this all you want, but there are many articles like I directed someone else to that clearly show through actual science that "macro-evolution" clearly has happened. Your attempt to demean what both scientists and what their findings have been is utterly nonsensical and disingenuous. No matter how many words that you use, that does not cover up the simply fact that you lie about and distort what we know, instead you rely on fictitious teachings from your JW leaders.

So, you can continue to blindly believe in fairy tales and twist about what we as scientists have known for over a century now, but most of us here would rather deal with the reality that the basic ToE is real and well-established, whereas your beliefs have not and cannot be established as being real.

Metis...can you provide real evidence for what you believe? I haven't seen any. You can quibble all you like about us relying on the 'fictitious teachings of our leaders'....but can you guarantee that you are not also the victim of equally fictitious teachings from your own leaders, sold to you as facts, when there clearly aren't any? Its an inconvenient truth, isn't it? If all you can do is shoot the messenger and not support your theory with actual evidence (that does not rely on unprovable suggestions,) then that is a sad and sorry excuse for a rebuttal. Why can't you address the points instead of insulting my brotherhood?

What is "utterly nonsensical and disingenuous" is assuming that one belief system is true and the other is not because of insufficient evidence..... the truth is, science also has insufficient evidence to claim that kind of victory.

Take your "evidence" apart and see what science is really saying....its not as conclusive as you have been led to 'believe'. Smoke and mirrors is in the terminology and in misleading interpretation of supposed evidence. o_O
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Metis...can you provide real evidence for what you believe? I haven't seen any. You can quibble all you like about us relying on the 'fictitious teachings of our leaders'....but can you guarantee that you are not also the victim of equally fictitious teachings from your own leaders, sold to you as facts, when there clearly aren't any? Its an inconvenient truth, isn't it? If all you can do is shoot the messenger and not support your theory with actual evidence (that does not rely on unprovable suggestions,) then that is a sad and sorry excuse for a rebuttal. Why can't you address the points instead of insulting my brotherhood?

What is "utterly nonsensical and disingenuous" is assuming that one belief system is true and the other is not because of insufficient evidence..... the truth is, science also has insufficient evidence to claim that kind of victory.

Take your "evidence" apart and see what science is really saying....its not as conclusive as you have been led to 'believe'. Smoke and mirrors is in the terminology and in misleading interpretation of supposed evidence. o_O
@Deeje you need to learn what "real evidence" is. It does no good for you to demand evidence when you can't recognize it when it is given to you.
 
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