Jehovah's behaviour in Deuteronomy...

[Gaura Priya]

I am having trouble understanding the God found in Deuteronomy... technically in three parts.

a) Jehovah seems to hate anything that is associated with other religious beliefs and cultures, and seems to support cultural and tribal genocide in chapter 12

b) Jehovah in chapter 17 allows for the killing or stoning of those who have a different form of worship to the early Israelites

c) It seems that in chapter 21, Jehovah allows a man to possess a woman and humiliate her, as well as enjoy her as property. And if the man does not like her, he can send her away. I know well that a woman in the past could only live either as a prostitute, a widow, or a married woman

If anyone has any good commentaries on certain passages in this book found online, or any advice in approaching this book and reconciling that in a Judeo-Christian context, please feel free to do so!

 

[outhouse]

I am having trouble understanding the God found in Deuteronomy... technically in three parts.

a) Jehovah seems to hate anything that is associated with other religious beliefs and cultures, and seems to support cultural and tribal genocide in chapter 12

b) Jehovah in chapter 17 allows for the killing or stoning of those who have a different form of worship to the early Israelites

c) It seems that in chapter 21, Jehovah allows a man to possess a woman and humiliate her, as well as enjoy her as property. And if the man does not like her, he can send her away. I know well that a woman in the past could only live either as a prostitute, a widow, or a married woman

If anyone has any good commentaries on certain passages in this book found online, or any advice in approaching this book and reconciling that in a Judeo-Christian context, please feel free to do so!

To understand this part of the bible you need to understand ancient Israel at this time and the hebrews culture and understand why the theology changed then.

Were talking about a time when hebrews just changed to monotheism from polytheism. They were a little bitter at that time and digging their lives out of a trash heap so to speak after the recent fall of the kingdom. As far as the treatment of women you have to realize they were barbaric people as all ancient people were. It was normal for that time for all people. They also wanted a stronger army and women did not make good warriors which were in high demand.

Im very vague in my post but your asking for a explanation that really a book could be written to explain it properly

 

[outhouse]

a) Jehovah seems to hate anything that is associated with other religious beliefs and cultures, and seems to support cultural and tribal genocide in chapter 12

recent changes to monotheism left no tollerence for those who would not follow a strict worship to only yahweh.

b) Jehovah in chapter 17 allows for the killing or stoning of those who have a different form of worship to the early Israelites

same as above

c) It seems that in chapter 21, Jehovah allows a man to possess a woman and humiliate her, as well as enjoy her as property. And if the man does not like her, he can send her away. I know well that a woman in the past could only live either as a prostitute, a widow, or a married woman

barbaric people which was the norm for that time.

 

[Gaura Priya]

To understand this part of the bible you need to understand ancient Israel at this time and the hebrews culture and understand why the theology changed then.

Were talking about a time when hebrews just changed to monotheism from polytheism. They were a little bitter at that time and digging their lives out of a trash heap so to speak after the recent fall of the kingdom. As far as the treatment of women you have to realize they were barbaric people as all ancient people were. It was normal for that time for all people. They also wanted a stronger army and women did not make good warriors which were in high demand.

Im very vague in my post but your asking for a explanation that really a book could be written to explain it properly

It just makes me feel, how can a Christian, or even a Jew reconcile themselves with these passages with the very God that they worship seeming so... crazy for Eir time back then? How can we as religious (and non-religious) people understand the culture and people and religious values of the time back then in the Middle-East?

After all, at current I follow the Vedic Scriptures, which are a couple of thousands of years older than the Jewish Hebrew Scriptures. There are some barbarisms here and there found in the Manu Smrti, but other than that, not to the same aweful degree as the Hebrew Scriptures. Even the Qur'an seems, for a religion of the desert, much more docile and understanding, and explainable over the Tanakh.

There is no death prescription in the Qur'an for those who leave the Faith, nor of those who do not believe. The killing in the Qur'an is from political wars and in defense of harrassment. There does not seem to be anything but a theological difference as justification for stoning in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Heck, how can even as a Jewish woman, be able to reconcile these passages?


"You should absolutely destroy all the places where the nations whom you are dispossessing have served their gods, on the tall mountains and the hills and under every luxuriant tree. And you must pull down their altars and shatter their sacred pillars, and You should burn their sacred poles in the fire and cut down the graven images of their gods, and you must destroy their names from that place. You must not do that way to Jehovah your God."

-- Deuteronomy 12:2-4 (NWT)


"If there be found in the midst of thee, within any of thy gates which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that doeth that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah thy God, in transgressing his covenant, and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, or the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; and it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, then shalt thou inquire diligently; and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel, then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, who hath done this evil thing, unto thy gates, even the man or the woman; and thou shalt stone them to death with stones."

-- Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (ASV)


"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and Jehovah thy God delivereth them into thy hands, and thou hast taken captives of them, and thou seest among the captives a woman of beautiful form, and hast a desire unto her, and takest her as thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thy house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the clothes of her captivity from off her, and shall abide in thy house, and bewail her father and mother a full month, and afterwards thou mayest go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go according to her desire; but thou shalt in no wise sell her for money; thou shalt not treat her as a slave, because thou hast humbled [other translations say 'humiliated'] her."

-- Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (DBY)

 

[outhouse]

It just makes me feel, how can a Christian, or even a Jew reconcile themselves with these passages with the very God that they worship seeming so... crazy for Eir time back then? How can we as religious (and non-religious) people understand the culture and people and religious values of the time back then in the Middle-East?

You have to remember, they were a little upset at that time. their civilization was just crushed with the fall of the temple. Their men mudered their temple and villages burned and detroyed, their women raped and tortured. They were at the wrong end of a brutal stick so to speak.

Many proclaimed before hand that this would all go down because they were not all unified in worship to Yahweh. Its not prophecy because it was easy to see it all go down.

Once they fell to their enemies hands they did something no one expected, because of the fall they all banded to yahwey and montheism as to give this warrior deity as much fearful power as possible so this wouldnt happen again.

Thus you get angry barbaric passages.



I understand the barbaric nature of these passages, you should understand all these horrible things just happened to them and they wanted some payback.



Had times been all rosy and peacefull the nature of scripture would have reflected that.

 

[Levite]

I am having trouble understanding the God found in Deuteronomy... technically in three parts.

a) Jehovah seems to hate anything that is associated with other religious beliefs and cultures, and seems to support cultural and tribal genocide in chapter 12

b) Jehovah in chapter 17 allows for the killing or stoning of those who have a different form of worship to the early Israelites

c) It seems that in chapter 21, Jehovah allows a man to possess a woman and humiliate her, as well as enjoy her as property. And if the man does not like her, he can send her away. I know well that a woman in the past could only live either as a prostitute, a widow, or a married woman

If anyone has any good commentaries on certain passages in this book found online, or any advice in approaching this book and reconciling that in a Judeo-Christian context, please feel free to do so!

Partly what Outhouse said above has some truth to it: those days were very different, and these commands reflect the need for early monolatrous/monotheistic Judaism to survive, and not be subsumed, conquered, and assimilated into the local cultures (all of which failed to survive). Although not mentioned above, it is worth noting that those of the idolaters who were willing to give up idolatrous ways and become part of our people were spared. Also spared were those who refused to give up idolatry, but were willing to remove outside the borders of the Land of Israel. Those who remained, and not only clung to the various immoral behaviors of idolatrous worship, but attempted to seduce Israelites into such behavior also-- those were whom we made war upon.

Secondly, we understand the commandments regarding the Canaanite wars of conquest to be taken literally only that one time in our history. While it is true that during the period of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, we fought a few wars for expansion or other political reasons, they were none of them commanded by God, but were entirely human affairs. Our Rabbis teach that the wars of conquest were wars of survival, which is why they were commanded to us; without them, the Jewish People could never really have come to be.

Third, it is worth remembering that this is the Ancient Near East of 3000 years ago we're talking about. To attempt to live by modern conceptions of interpersonal morality and cultural ethics in an age in which most of those ideas were utterly foreign would have been mass suicide, even if our ancestors could have been convinced such foreign ideas were right. We are taught by Our Rabbis that God understands that human beings and human societies move forward in small increments, and so what is presented in the Written Torah, when it is intended to be taken literally at all, represents, at the literal level, small steps forward in moral, ethical, and social progress. We were given the Oral Torah along with the Written Torah to ensure that even what was once intended to be taken at the literal level (which is a minority of the Torah) could be re-understood and re-interpreted at other levels as time went on, continuing to provide insight and valuable lessons in very different ways. So, for example, though we do not make war on idolaters any more, we still read these narratives as lessons about the importance of the continuity of the Jewish People, and about remaining faithful to the covenant.

On a brief, tangential note: the term "Jehovah" is a misnomer, resulting from errors in translation (first amongst the Romans, later among the Germans). The four-letter name of God, whose pronunciation has been lost for over 2000 years, was customarily voweled with the vowels for "Adonai," meaning "My Lord," the standard euphemistic title we say aloud when reading the tetragrammaton, as a reminder to say "Adonai" instead of trying to pronounce the four-letter name. Translators erroneously believed those vowels to be the correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton, and so Latinized the name as "Iahouah," or "Iahoueh," later "Jehovah" or "Jahweh," in the German texts. The actual Hebrew name is a linguistic symbol of eternality, being the Hebrew verb "to be" in all three tenses simultaneously. But no one yet knows its correct pronunciation. "Jehovah" and "Yahweh" are just nonsense words.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

See the Tigay Commentary.

 

[Annenance]

God told the Israelites to wipe out all the pagans living in the land that they would be given to possess. God clearly states that he is a jealous God, and anyone who makes room for more than one god in their lives is in danger of his punishment. From a Christian standpoint, God made all these people, both the polytheists (pagans) and the Israelites. This is his world, his creation, and he has he right and the responsibility to make the rules. Why would he allow for the worship of false gods? Why would he allow people to perpetuate untruths about the nature of Himself, i.e. that He is just one among many, that he is limited in power and knowledge, that created things and false gods are more worthy or even equally worthy of worship?

To me, the more curious question is why did he choose anyone NOT to wipe out? Even the israelites, his chosen people, weren't real good at sticking to one god. Read the book of Joshua; the Israelites annihilated just about every Canaanite pagan in the land, but eventually, they still managed to find non-God-followers to associate and intermarry with, and began worshipping their "gods" again.

I think it's interesting though, that you can find that God has sort of an override switch, though. If a person swilling to get with his program, they don't have to be lumped together with the enemy. Rehab, the prostitute at Jericho, born and raised in idolatry, was spared, along with her family, because she believed God. Her family was taken into the Israelite camp, and "adopted in" much like the Gentiles of the new testament. On the other hand, there is the Israelite soldier, Achan, who along with his family was stoned to death because of his disobedience and regard for riches above God's instruction. I think that shows that God is not entirely arbitrary. Anyone can be welcomed in on the basis of faith, regardless of wher or to whom you were born. And conversely, just being born an Israelite does not guarantee your position to the point that you can presume God's grace will allow in to go unpunished.

 

[Annenance]

God told the Israelites to wipe out all the pagans living in the land that they would be given to possess. God clearly states that he is a jealous God, and anyone who makes room for more than one god in their lives is in danger of his punishment. From a Christian standpoint, God made all these people, both the polytheists (pagans) and the Israelites. This is his world, his creation, and he has he right and the responsibility to make the rules. Why would he allow for the worship of false gods? Why would he allow people to perpetuate untruths about the nature of Himself, i.e. That He is just one among many, that he is limited in power and knowledge, that created things and false gods are more worthy or even equally worthy of worship?

To me, the more curious question is why did he choose anyone NOT to wipe out? Even the israelites, his chosen people, weren't real good at sticking to one god. Read the book of Joshua; the Israelites annihilated just about every Canaanite pagan in the land, but eventually, they still managed to find non-God-followers to associate and intermarry with, and began worshipping their "gods" again.

I think it's interesting though, that you can find that God has sort of an override switch, though. If a person swilling to get with his program, they don't have to be lumped together with the enemy. Rehab, the prostitute at Jericho, born and raised in idolatry, was spared, along with her family, because she believed God. Her family was taken into the Israelite camp, and "adopted in" much like the Gentiles of the new testament. On the other hand, there is the Israelite soldier, Achan, who along with his family was stoned to death because of his disobedience and regard for riches above God's instruction. I think that shows that God is not entirely arbitrary. Anyone can be welcomed in on the basis of faith, regardless of wher or to whom you were born. And conversely, just being born an Israelite does not guarantee your position to the point that you can presume God's grace will allow in to go unpunished.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To me, the more curious question is why did he choose anyone NOT to wipe out?

The more curious questions should be: Why does the Tanach claim that people X have been eradicated only to introduce them later in the text? And why was this painfully obvious fact of so little concern to the generations of storytellers and scribes involved in transmitting and refining the text?


Sarna speaks of the Torah as paradigmatic history.

 

[idea]

I think some of the old testament has been altered from it's original intents.

also, we are built on the foundation of our history - a crack in the foundation, and the whole building is in peril - all the later generations are in peril - so much riding on the choices of our ancestors - ancestors who lived before Christ and did not have his example to guide them, ancestors who did not have most of the knowledge that we have today... start with "don't murder" and then build up from there, have to start somewhere - usually pretty coarse/unrefined at the start of any project.

 

[outhouse]

I think some of the old testament has been altered from it's original intents.

Take the worst fragmented hard drive you have ever seen and that wont mirror how bad it was chopped up

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think some of the old testament has been altered from it's original intents.

Is this 'thinking' based on anything?

 

[idea]

Is this 'thinking' based on anything?

well, just look at the text itself.

there are missing books:

(Bible Dictionary | L Lost Books:Entry)

Lost Books. The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable, but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14). To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text, but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).

The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that he gave to his people in former times, and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete.

Matthew's reference to a prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (2:23) is interesting when it is considered that our present O.T. seems to have no statement as such. There is a possibility, however, that Matthew alluded to Isaiah 11:1, which prophesies of the Messiah as a Branch from the root of Jesse, the father of David. The Hebrew word for branch in this case is netzer, the source word of Nazarene and Nazareth. Additional references to the Branch as the Savior and Messiah are found in Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; these use a synonymous Hebrew word for branch, tzemakh.

there are internal inconsistencies... if you read a story and one page states their mom's house was all red, and the next page states it was all blue - it's obvious that something is missing, or something is wrong.

 

[outhouse]

well, just look at the text itself.

there are missing books:


there are internal inconsistencies... if you read a story and one page states their mom's house was all red, and the next page states it was all blue - it's obvious that something is missing, or something is wrong.

The Legends of Genesis: V. Jahvist, Elohist, Jehovist, the Later Collections

 

[outhouse]

Thats just the beginning of the compilation.

a heavily edited compilation as views changed is the reality of the early books and deut was added in its own redaction

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think some of the old testament has been altered from it's original intents.

Is this 'thinking' based on anything?

well, just look at the text itself.

there are missing books: ...

Good grief -- think. :slap:

 

[idea]

Even if we had the original unaltered words - consider the pharisees and Sadducees - they might have had some original works, written in their own language - and yet they missed the whole point of what they had - what all the prophets were prophesying of - and killed Jesus.... so just reading a book with words, even if the words are straight from God - is not enough.... you have to have the Spirit with you, personal revelation, and an open heart to read it all as it is intended and not as your own cognitive dissonance would have it be...

 

[outhouse]

Even if we had the original unaltered words - consider the pharisees and Sadducees - they might have had some original works, written in their own language - and yet they missed the whole point of what they had - what all the prophets were prophesying of - and killed Jesus.... so just reading a book with words, even if the words are straight from God - is not enough.... you have to have the Spirit with you, personal revelation, and an open heart to read it all as it is intended and not as your own cognitive dissonance would have it be...

Thats just not good enough.


One needs to have knowledge not faith to understand the history to help relate the context.

having a ghost hanging out with you while you read simply doesnt cut it or give you a historical perspective. :sad4:

 

[javajo]

I am having trouble understanding the God found in Deuteronomy... technically in three parts.

a) Jehovah seems to hate anything that is associated with other religious beliefs and cultures, and seems to support cultural and tribal genocide in chapter 12

b) Jehovah in chapter 17 allows for the killing or stoning of those who have a different form of worship to the early Israelites

c) It seems that in chapter 21, Jehovah allows a man to possess a woman and humiliate her, as well as enjoy her as property. And if the man does not like her, he can send her away. I know well that a woman in the past could only live either as a prostitute, a widow, or a married woman

If anyone has any good commentaries on certain passages in this book found online, or any advice in approaching this book and reconciling that in a Judeo-Christian context, please feel free to do so!

Hi. I am almost through with Deuteronomy in my methodical Bible study (I try to read the Bible through on a regular basis along with my regular studies and readings). Just before they were to take the Promised Land, God gave Moses these laws concerning the tribes they'd encounter. He had also given other laws they were to obey to keep wickedness out of the land, sins which these tribes they encountered had committed and thus had to be taken off the land. Some tribes were so wicked they had to be utterly destroyed, while some, if they opted for peace, were spared. These tribes had turned from worshiping the one true God and began worshiping the creation, the sun, moon and stars and burned their children in sacrifice to these gods and were very wicked in committing all the abominations God warned Israel not to do. The laws about the women of the tribes they spared I won't get into. Moses also let them divorce their wives, yet Jesus said God allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts as they were a stubborn and stiff-necked people. Someone said something about them being mad about losing their temple, but they had not built a temple at that time. They carried the tabernacle and the ark and all that with them and set it up when they camped. Yes, some things are hard to be understood from our perspective, but read on, it gets better!