Jehovah's Witness cartoon suggests to Children that magic-themed toys make Jehovah 'sad'

[savagewind]

Oh good grief! I alway have to smile at the reasoning......I used the other translations to prove that it wasn't just a NWT 'addition' as was suggested......

You have to examine the Greek to see that it is added. OK. So, the NTW team didn't do it first, but they adopted it.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Oh good grief! I alway have to smile at the reasoning......I used the other translations to prove that it wasn't just a NWT 'addition' as was suggested...

And that still relies on texts that were compiled by... the RCC. Facepalm all you want, but it looks like you JW's allow for and use Paganism (or Pagan influence) when it's convenient or when it would be inconvenient not too.

 

[Deeje]

And that still relies on texts that were compiled by... the RCC. Facepalm all you want, but it looks like you JW's allow for and use Paganism (or Pagan influence) when it's convenient or when it would be inconvenient not too.

Finding fault has become an art form these days. Pick your victim. Some criticisms are legitimate and others are just nit picking because everyone sees themselves as an armchair critic it seems.

The Bible's message is the same in all Bibles. I became a JW studying the KJV.....I compare translations all the time and I regularly consult Strongs to get a better understanding of the original language.

Everyone is free to come to their own conclusions and in the process, qualify for life.....or not.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The Bible's message is the same in all Bibles.

Right, and that message was a narrative that was factually and historically compiled and written by a sect of Christianity that your group notoriously calls "Pagan". See, it's the blatant hypocrisy of Jehovah's Witnesses (in general) that I'm criticizing here. "Paganism is bad and evil and table of demons, oh but it's just so hard to not use the Pagan names for days and months. We'll just wait for the next world... Don't celebrate birthdays, those are Pagan and evil, and don't give credit to Jehovah! See? It says so right here in this book written by those pagan Catholics!"

And that's not even mentioning the conflict between door-to-door proselytizing and Halloween.

 

[Oeste]

This is beyond twisted.....seriously. If you want to celebrate your socks off...knock yourself out. I think it is best to allow the judge to find us guilty or innocent.

But we are told plainly in scripture NOT to combine pagan beliefs with Christian truth.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ESV...

We are not to touch what is spiritually "unclean" or else God will not accept us as his sons and daughters.

If you are “NOT to combine pagan beliefs with Christian truth”, and you are not to touch what is spiritually “unclean” why do adhere to a pagan calendar, and why are pagan days stuck like glue all along your Kingdom Halls?

If You “are not to touch what is spiritually “unclean” we should not see Witnesses handling or using calendars any more than they use or handle Sparlock , much less honoring the name of pagan days on their Kingdom Halls.

Perhaps the young boy should have pointed this out to mom in the video?

Any encyclopedia will inform you of the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter. They have no place in Christianity as the scripture above makes clear.

Any encyclopedia will inform you of the pagan origins of Sunday and Wednesday too. If you’re going to rail against Christmas and Easter at least be consistent and rail against the days and months of the year. Anything less just smacks of hypocrisy.

It was not the historic church that set any kind of a good example though, was it? Pope Gregory's calendar, awash with pagan deities, wasn't even the half of it. The mother church set a bad example for her daughters.

So your argument, like KJW’s, is that your Organization has no choice but to follow the lead of Pope Gregory?

Is he the only Pope you follow or are there others?

We acknowledge days, not deities.

And the Christian church acknowledges Christ, not some "pagan god" on Christmas.

I am always amazed at the clear clarity Witnesses see when examining their own Organization but how things becomes opaque and thick as fog when they look at others.

It wasn't our choice to call them by those names and there is no inclusion of those deities in our worship. Nice try.

Join the club! No one asked my church what to name the holidays either, and there is no inclusion of pagan deities in our worship. Nice try.

And since these deities do not even exist, what is all the ballyhoo about?

Exactly, and this is why it’s so hard to understand your Organization’s commotion about Easter and Christmas. I’m sure you’ll bring this point up at your very next meeting.

It is Christendom that holds Sunday as its Sabbath is it not? That makes Christendom inextricably tied to sun worship.

It also ties Kingdom Halls to same.

We have no set "holy" days in our week. We worship our God every day. Our meetings are scheduled for convenience, not assigned to any particular day.

So your argument is that while “Christendom” churches can at best be tied to the Sun God, Kingdom Halls can also be tied to Tyr, Woden, Thor and Saturn?

That’s the same point we made earlier but I’ll freely hand it to you.

God will fix the calendar in his own time.

So it was "time" for your Organization to “fix” Christmas and Easter, but only God can fix the Gregorian calendar??

This is one explanation I can't wait to hear about.

Perhaps you need to stop throwing garbage in our backyard before you clean up your own?

If I’m not mistaken Deeje, it's not the Christian church that clutters neighborhoods with leaflets criticizing Kingdom Halls for refusing to celebrate Easter and Christmas.

Can we say the same for yours?

 

[Oeste]

Are you fudging the truth again? You said he would in all probability "shut off contact" with you if he knew what you posted online about JW's.

No fudge. I meant what I said. He’s a Jehovah Witness. He most certainly would break off contact. But he won’t sever it permanently because I was never a Witness.

Do you consider yourself an honest person?

No more or less than most.

You just proved that you aren't.

I have “proven” no such thing and neither have you, so please…spare me your ad hominem.

It's a dishonest tactic honest people need not deploy.

Oh brother! Who can converse rationally with such a twisted view? All religious organizations were investigated for child abuse after what came to light with the Roman Catholic church's systemic abuse in its institutions probably for centuries. ...even the Boy Scouts were included! Seriously! We can no more keep pedophiles out of our Kingdom Halls than anyone else.

Another excellent point Deeje! So why does the WT criticize “Christendom” for its handling of child abuse cases when it cannot even handle its own?

Christian trust makes us a target sometimes. But our elders are not the police....if someone wants to bring charges against someone for the crime of child abuse then they are free to report it to the authorities. Any brother convicted of repeated or unrepentant abuse of children or even of their spouse, will be disfellowshipped.

That sounds reasonable until you realize children in your congregation consider its Elders “the authorities” and these “spiritual authorities” will not call the police unless the law legally requires them to do so, due to the fear and instruction they must not do any thiing which would bring "reproach" on "Jehovah's Organization".

But like courts of law, there has to be evidence that an offense took place. Most incidents of child abuse do not have any witnesses but God. You can't just go around accusing people without due process. I have no idea what "fliers" you are talking about. I have no knowledge of such fliers. If JW's do something publicly, we do it as a body.

Elders aren’t equipped to gather evidence which may constitute a “second witness” to the alleged assault. Once a child makes an allegation of inappropriate sexual contact to an elder secular authorities should be called. It should not be “optional”.

Your Organization hypocritically singles out any church but its own when it comes to child abuse. I believe the one that got me active was this one, left on my door, implying my church and others were “tolerant” of child molesters:

The Watchtower, July 15th 2001 Issue, Page 21:

Are You Truly Tolerant?
(Balance Is Needed)

Of course, we need to avoid being overly tolerant. For instance, terrible damage is done when religious authorities tolerate abusive priests who persistently molest boys and girls. Treating the children as occasions of sin, commented one reporter in Ireland, the church authorities merely moved on the offending priest (to another location).

Is just transferring such a man an example of proper tolerance? Hardly! Suppose a medical body allowed an irresponsible surgeon to continue operating, transferring him from one hospital to another, even though he was killing or maiming his patients. A mistaken sense of professional loyalty might produce such tolerance. But what about the victims whose lives were lost or adversely affected because of negligent or even criminal practices?
​

There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of other such articles, all pointing outward with indignation while minimizing, ignoring, disclaiming, or glossing over sexual transgressions occurring within the Organization. After all, the public image and persona must be that “Jehovah’s Organization” (as they put it) is “clean”.

AWAKE!, September 8th 1990 Issue, Page 29:

Watching the World

CLERGY MORALS

According to The Toronto Star, the Ottawa archdiocese of the Roman Catholic Church in Canada was recently ordered by the courts to pay $150,000 for failing to act on a complaint against one of its priests. The priest was accused of sexually assaulting young boys. The victims’ families “felt driven to seek a civil remedy because, having gone to the church for help after the assaults, they were shut out by officials, including the archbishop,” noted one lawyer. According to the Star, another lawyer stated that Catholic Church officials, on discovery of child-abuse complaints, have historically kept the priests in the clergy. He said: “Instead of reporting them to the police or booting them out of there like most any other institution, they have, out of loyalty to their own, just moved them around secretly.​

The Watchtower could have ended the article with "...and it is with embarrassment and deep regret we reported the same", but we know how that goes. But we can discuss your recent boast of "high standards" within your Organization on my next post.

Our elders are serious about the safety of our lambs as well as the rest of the flock. I can't say the same for the churches in general though. They do not confront wrongdoers and they do not disfellowship those who are unrepentant sinners. That makes their congregations subject to lots of leaven.

This is a problem affecting all churches DeeJe. No one claims it’s just the Watchtower. You’re way too much into that “us vs. them” mentality. The problem is not only child molesters, but how allegations of child molestation are handled.

Before alleging Christian churches “do not confront wrongdoers” make sure your church actually does.

The inconsistency is all in your twisted evaluation of everything. You don't like JW's?

To answer your question:

Some JW’s? Yes

Most JW’s? Perhaps

All JW’s? No

And their theology? Not so much.​

You can love your fellow man Deeje, but that doesn’t mean you like what it is they do.

Fine...just don't go around making baseless accusations that you gleaned from some apostate's website. It reflects badly on you...not us.

What “baseless accusations” are you referring to? I’ve been able to support every assertion I’ve made. May we kindly ask you to support yours?

BTW, when someone makes an “assertion” it does not necessarily mean they are making an “accusation”.

 

[Oeste]

John told us what to do about those who want to throw their own ideas around in the congregation....

"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."

Does John tell you to listen to John but not to Matthew? As stated previously, the accused wrongdoer has the right to address the congregation

You’re trying to tell us if we listen to John we can’t listen to Matthew. That is nonsense.

Rather than trying to “proof text” one scripture against the other read both and see if you can reconcile them. It’s easily done and I’m sure, with a little effort, you can do it.

So much for speaking with unrepentant sinners. These apostates were those "inside" the congregation who stirred up trouble over doctrine.....but sinners on the "outside", needed a physician....so this is why Jesus spoke to them and sought them out....they were the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom he was sent.

Ah, so Jehovah Witnesses don’t tend to those inside the congregation, just those outside?

The physician has given you a prescription for those “inside” the congregation, who, as you say “stir up trouble over doctrine.” I would like you to pay close attention here because this prescription is not for those on the OUTSIDE, but INSIDE God’s congregation. Also, by paying close attention you can tell me at which numbered point you think my reasoning went astray:

1. Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone.

2. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

3. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.

4. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation.

5. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

(Matthew 18:15-17)​

You cannot kick someone from the congregation for failure to follow Godly counsel if you yourself are not willing to do the same. If you keep doing this, you show yourselves to be as unrepentant as the person you’re kicking out! It brings hypocrisy into your Organization.

Nowhere in scripture does it tell us we can ignore the counsel found in Matthew. The prescription must be applied as written. Neither you nor your elders nor your Organization, nor your Governing Board is authorized to drop out "key ingredients" here or there to brew their own elixir.

OK...lets take that point. Who in the congregation was responsible for keeping things in order....everyone? Or were there elders and deacons who were assigned to do that?

When Paul gave instructions to remove an unrepentant sinner from the congregation, who was to judge that person? Everyone?

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 ESV...

Once again you attempt to show that 1Corinthians 5:11-13 somehow negates, contradicts or allows you to ignore Matthew 18:15-17!

What exactly prevents you from following both?

You cannot “judge” anyone without following due process, and part of that due process is speaking to the congregation before judgement is rendered.

As to who these congregants are you yourself named them in post 265:

Despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.” (2 Timothy 2:14-19; Hebrews 12:6)

I suspect Jehovah Witnesses have long standing baptized members, strong in the faith, knowledgeable of scripture, who attend their congregations? Am I wrong in this??? This would be a closed meeting of the congregation Deeje, just like the prior meeting with the Elders, not open to the public, so that the accused can, if they so choose, make their case before the congregation and for the congregation to rightly discharge their Christian duty.

It is the decision of the congregation, not the Elders, that becomes final. The Elders are entrusted as shepherds, not as masters of the Congregation:

Be shepherds of God’s flock that is among you, watching over them not out of compulsion, but because it is God’s will; not out of greed, but out of eagerness; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 1Peter 5:2-3​

There is only one Lord and Master to the congregation and they must submit to that Lord and Master just as the congregation must submit, which means submission rather than omission to the word of God at Matthew 18:15-18.

At this point, if he refuses to listen to the congregation, he is free to go and you can treat him like a pagan or tax collector. That doesn’t mean you can no longer talk with them, nor does it mean you have to invite them into your house to share a meal. But it does mean you treat them as one in need of salvation.

Who was to do the judging inside the congregation? It was those in positions of responsibility, not members in general.

"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

Let's not be silly. Church leaders must submit to the word of God before the congregation can submit to church leaders. Nothing in this verse says church leaders can ignore Matthew 18:17. What kind of example would that set? Obey your leaders, "YES", but obey scripture too.

Get the picture?

That disturbing picture of Matthew 18:15-17 being swept under the rug? Unfortunately yes unless you can assure me I'm wrong.

You see only what you want to see.

But it's your Governing Board that does all the painting.

Most disfellowshipping does not take place from the body of Christ these days. There are very few of them left on earth as they are almost all in heaven now awaiting the "Marriage of the Lamb" with the full complement of his "bride". (Revelation 21:2-4) The end of this system of things must come first.

It saddens me that your leadership claims only they are the body of Christ whilst others can only be “associates” of the “slave class”. Quite simply, membership in an Organization will be insufficient to save you, since there is no other name but Christ by which mankind is saved:

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus (1Timothy 2:5)

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)​

But this sounds like another subject for another time.

There are a great many safeguards in place to protect the flock so that those who have a contentious disposition will not stay among us for long, nor will they be in agreement with our mode of discipline. It doesn't matter.

I have no idea why you wouldn’t want folks with a “contentious disposition” to stay with you.

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 3:3)​

You cannot “contend” for the faith without being “contentious” Deeje.

The very fact that our organization has such high standards is why we enjoy such peace and unity in a global brotherhood......

Most Christian Organizations have high standards Deeje. It’s meeting those high standards where problems arise. If there was a Christian Organization that actually kept the “high standards” you boast about keeping we would still be under the Law and Christ need not have come.

“…there are no complainers spoiling it for everyone else. "

If this is true I suspect the number of disfellowships within your Organization will be negligible.

Is this correct, or are there too many people complaining?

 

[Deeje]

Right, and that message was a narrative that was factually and historically compiled and written by a sect of Christianity that your group notoriously calls "Pagan". See, it's the blatant hypocrisy of Jehovah's Witnesses (in general) that I'm criticizing here.

Actually, there is no scripture written by any member of Christendom. The scriptures were all written by Jews.
The compilation, I believe, was achieved by God....it is God's word, not the word of the Catholic church. He can use whomever he wishes to carry out his will. The church in those early centuries was hardly exhibiting Christ-like love, but it was the only "Christianity" at the time.

And even though they had the scriptures in their possession, they kept them out of reach for the common people for many centuries. No one was allowed to read the Bible for themselves. It took the Protestant Reformation to make the Bible available to the people.....and not that long ago considering how long it's been in existence. The power of the Roman church had to be broken first.

"Paganism is bad and evil and table of demons, oh but it's just so hard to not use the Pagan names for days and months. We'll just wait for the next world... Don't celebrate birthdays, those are Pagan and evil, and don't give credit to Jehovah! See? It says so right here in this book written by those pagan Catholics!"

We live in a world that is alienated from the true God, so we don't expect things to reflect his worship, we expect things to reflect the worship of God's adversary in the form of any religion that exists apart from the one authorised by the Creator. This is why Jesus told us to be "no part of the world". The names of the days of the week or the months of the year will be dealt with when God brings this whole world system to its end. What is the point of changing the names of things when the whole system is doomed? That's a bit like changing the names of the cruise directors on the Titanic.

Why would we be bothered by the names of gods who don't even exist.

What does a pagan care what Christians do anyhow?

And that's not even mentioning the conflict between door-to-door proselytizing and Halloween.

SMH....are you serious? Halloween is one of the most demonic celebrations that anyone could observe, let alone someone who purports to worship the God of the Bible. Those who call themselves "Christian", by engaging in this celebration of all that is evil, will see what God has to say about it soon enough.

Christians are not to participate in pagan celebrations, justifying it by pretending that God doesn't mind. You cannot combine paganism with Christianity.....period. We are to "touch" nothing spiritually "unclean". Since God said so, maybe you should take it up with him?

Our door to door ministry is authorised by Jesus in the Bible. (Matthew 13:11-14; Acts 5:42; Matthew 24:14) Halloween is not.

As a believer in pagan deities, you can 'touch' whatever you like....for now.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Actually, there is no scripture written by any member of Christendom. The scriptures were all written by Jews.

Jews and Early Christians. And yet the Roman Catholic Church compiled every book that has gone into your bible, declared what is "heretical" and omitted it, and oversaw the translations that led to every following translation and "interpretation" that you all use. You can "believe" that it was achieved by your god, but that's not what happened. Claiming that the bible is the "word of god" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of just what the bible is, particularly the gospels.

Per your criticisms, you're using a book made by Pagans.

The church in those early centuries was hardly exhibiting Christ-like love, but it was the only "Christianity" at the time.

Ah, and I suppose that excuses it? Lol, no... The church - any of them - has never exhibited "christ-like love". You all lost that the moment you started following the teachings of Paul more than those of Jesus.

This is why Jesus told us to be "no part of the world".

Really? Where? Because he also told you to remit unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

The names of the days of the week or the months of the year will be dealt with when God brings this whole world system to its end.

It's already been "dealt with" in many ways that have been shown to you. You all are just lazy and complacent to the Paganism that you so abhore.

Why would we be bothered by the names of gods who don't even exist.

Why are you bothered by holidays and customs that you don't believe hold power or sway? According to you, our gods don't exist. And yet later on here you say that Halloween is "the most demonic celebration ever". So either you're losing your mind over something that you don't believe exists, or you equate our gods with demons--in which case, the days of the week that you go by are now demonic. And it's still hypocritical that you're bothered by one but not the other.

What does a pagan care what Christians do anyhow?

A Q&A as old as time. Why do I care? Because you people make your beliefs my business. Every time your fellows come to my door, you make what you do my concern. When you insult our gods, our lands, you bring us into the issue. Don't hide behind lame excuses and attempted dismissals just because you don't like the criticisms we throw back at you.

That, and your group's hypocrisy amuses me.

SMH....are you serious?

Quite. It's excessively funny that a group who goes door-to-door interrupting the lives of others with their Jesus babble get so hot under the hood for a holiday where kids go door-to-door for candy and treats.

And "celebration of evil"? That just shows your ignorance concerning any observation of the holiday.

Those who call themselves "Christian", by engaging in this celebration of all that is evil, will see what God has to say about it soon enough.

Christians are not to participate in pagan celebrations,

Yet here you are on this Sun's Day, in the Month of Mars.

You cannot combine paganism with Christianity.....period.

Say, do you consider Jesus a shepherd?

We are to "touch" nothing spiritually "unclean". Since God said so, maybe you should take it up with him?

No, actually the Jewish priests said that in their laws of ritual observance. So...

Our door to door ministry is authorised by Jesus in the Bible.

Don't care; it's annoying, invasive, rude, and enters us into the fold of criticizing your ridiculous practices.

As a believer in pagan deities, you can 'touch' whatever you like....for now.

View attachment 20690

Spare us your veiled threats, fear-mongerer; you don't scare me.

 

[savagewind]

And even though they had the scriptures in their possession, they kept them out of reach for the common people for many centuries. No one was allowed to read the Bible for themselves. It took the Protestant Reformation to make the Bible available to the people.....and not that long ago considering how long it's been in existence. The power of the Roman church had to be broken first.
.

This is where you are inconsistent. You say that Jehovah used the Roman church to take right care of the Bible but Jehovah let them keep it away from everyone else. Does that make sense to you?

Jehovah's Witnesses set Jehovah in a bad light. Like how?

Your god can do something extraordinary as in letting no misconceptions creep in, but your god can't make then share the truth with others. @kjw47 will say it wasn't time. Maybe you believe that too. It wasn't time for God to help people? What kind of lesson is that??????????????

 

[savagewind]

If everyone waited until the right time to do something, nothing would ever get done!

 

[Oeste]

If everyone waited until the right time to do something, nothing would ever get done!

When you're in the Watchtower, it's always the "proper time" to go forth and speak error, but rare the time to speak "truth".

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@The Ragin Pagan,

As a believer in pagan deities, you can 'touch' whatever you like....for now.

This wasn't any kind of "threat".... she meant that all things pagan, as she's been saying, will be gone.

We accept as truth the words of Revelation 12:9, that everyone -- including myself and Deeje -- is being misled in some way or another, by either false religion, or by putting trust in secular pursuits, or through teachings that tend to disregard the existence of a Divine source. Or even in what is being considered as historical events.

One day, when Matthew 6:9-10 has been fulfilled, everyone -- myself, Deeje, and even those who've died -- will be given the opportunity to learn in which ways we've been misled. We hope all mankind, including us, will be humble enough to accept it.

 

[Deeje]

When you're in the Watchtower, it's always the "proper time" to go forth and speak error, but rare the time to speak "truth".

Believe me, God will let us all know in the not too distant future who is on his side and who only thinks they are. (Matthew 7:21023) Those who are deluded will be shown how deluded they are and how far they have strayed from "doing the will of the father". So it will not matter in the long run who thinks they are right...it only matters at the end when the sheep are still standing and the goats are gone. Let Jesus be the judge.

 

[Deeje]

This is where you are inconsistent. You say that Jehovah used the Roman church to take right care of the Bible but Jehovah let them keep it away from everyone else. Does that make sense to you?

Jehovah's Witnesses set Jehovah in a bad light. Like how?

Your god can do something extraordinary as in letting no misconceptions creep in, but your god can't make then share the truth with others. @kjw47 will say it wasn't time. Maybe you believe that too. It wasn't time for God to help people? What kind of lesson is that??????????????

Jehovah has a timetable and everything takes place according to his counting of time, not ours. He had the scriptures compiled whilst they were relatively fresh. Knowing that 1500 years of an apostate church's influence would have an impact of Christianity, he allowed the church to corrupt the socks off itself but he did not allow them to corrupt his written word. Right on time, he moved a single man to begin a religious revolution. Martin Luther changed the course of history regarding the spiritual direction of the church. He was not alone as many others joined in exposing the Catholic church's corruption. The "wheat" though few, left their mark on history.

The Protestant Reformation was relatively late in history, after the Roman church had ruled "Christianity" with an iron fist for centuries, getting further and further away from the truth of God's word and the love shown by Jesus Christ.

It wasn't until "the time of the end" that the cleansing of a people, fit to carry out the most important commission of the 'last days', was to take place.....the wicked would not accept the cleansing and remain in their spiritually unclean state. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) They fought any attempt to clean out their false doctrines.
Jesus said that his disciples would preach the "good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness tom all the nations, and then the end will come". (Matthew 24:14)

That work is near its completion.....very little is left of the end times prophesy, to bring God's purpose to its finish. Either we accept that the work is being done or it isn't. We accept that Jesus is either directing his body organizationally, or he isn't.

When the end comes, it will come suddenly and without warning.....the nay-sayers will be left speechless, just as they were in Noah's day. (Matthew 24:37-39)

"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.


8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.
Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell." (2 Peter 3:3-13)

......are we all ready?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

This wasn't any kind of "threat".... she meant that all things pagan, as she's been saying, will be gone.

Including me. I'm not an idiot, Hockey, I know what the JW's say. It is a threat to my existence, morality, and spiritual being, and a poorly veiled one at that.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Including me.

No, you are a human being. I said "all things pagan", not "all people pagan".

Do you realize the promise the Bible holds out for mankind, even those who didn't worship Jehovah? Once a person has died, they've paid for their sin....unless they "love violence (Psalms 11:5)", and have totally disregarded other human life.

Have you? I doubt it. When you die, you will be resurrected.

I'm not an idiot, Hockey

I never said you were, and I don't believe you are!

I know what the JW's say.

What do we say? The Sept.1st WT, 2011, page 10 says "Armageddon will only destroy the incorrigibly wicked."
I don't think you are that, but Jehovah is the ultimate judge.... and He will take full advantage in applying Jesus' sacrifice to those He can; He paid a dear price for it. So did Jesus, for sure.

BTW, Armageddon is not the entire Great Tribulation, just the end of it. Many of those who die during the GT, but before Armageddon, may very well experience a Resurrection. Again, it's God's decision. The Bible informs us that a "great crowd" will survive Armageddon (Revelation 7:9-10, 14)....we hope everyone now living would survive, and not have to die, and then have to experience a Resurrection.

I hope I don't...but my health the way it is, I might.

It is a threat to my existence, morality, and spiritual being, and a poorly veiled one at that.

No, I don't believe that Deeje meant you (and I think I explained why), but that Pagan things and ideas will be gone forever. (Maybe your lifestyle -- what would you be willing to give up and change, in order to live forever young and healthy? I'm willing to give up everything that Jehovah deems harmful.....trying to do that now!)

Best wishes and good health to you.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

he allowed the church to corrupt the socks off itself but he did not allow them to corrupt his written word.

Then why did your "real teachers" find the need to rewrite their own Bible?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Once a person has died, they've paid for their sin

Where does the Bible teach that?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I never said you were, and I don't believe you are!

Then don't act like I can't tell a threat when I see it.

What do we say? The Sept.1st WT, 2011, page 10 says "Armageddon will only destroy the incorrigibly wicked."

What you think is irrelevant; according to JW teachings assumed by the pamphlets that you all incessantly leave with me, I am wicked in my worship of Pagan gods and rejection of Jehovah, and incorrigible in that I refuse to recant my ways. I am also well aware of the belief that come Armageddon, you and yours will be magically floated to Heaven while the rest of us face horrible, fiery destruction and annihilation. I have been told this to my face by your door-to-door peddlers, and seen the hideous pictures that your people paint up to illustrate it. For it being "god's decision," you lot sure have made up your mind about it.

Your lot's threats and fear-mongering don't scare me, Hockey, nor does your temptation to sell my soul to be ever-youthful phase me. It sounds more like a pipe dream born from inability to face life and death.