Jehovah's Witnesses Knocked on My Door

[Hockeycowboy]

You cannot at the same time say that Christianity is "singular" and at the same time say it is splintered into factions. If scripture is open to interpretation, then who decides what the correct interpretation is for everybody else on the planet?

Say you’ve got three people, each with different Biblical interpretations:

One practices fornication (which, btw, the Bible condemns).

Another regularly cheats and lies, greedy for money.

The third guy tries to imitate Christ the best he can, loving God and his neighbor.

Which one do you think?

Further, did Christ tell His disciples to get money for preaching, or to “give free”?

 

[Clear]

Super Universe Said : "JW's are fulfilling the command given by Jesus to preach the kingdom message in all the world? Jesus did not say to torture your children by making them go up to other people's houses and preach what you want them to preach."
Deeje replied : "Most of our children love the preaching work because they love God and because they love telling people about the paradise to come."

I think SuperUniverses' comment on this point seemed petty and contextually inaccurate. I am not J.W. and do not agree with much of their theology but have found them, in the main, to be wonderfully dedicated and kind individuals. I would be very pleased to have one as my neighbor and friend.

I noticed a couple with a young son going from door to door and as they left a door, saw me walking and their little boy gave me a pamplet. He seemed very pleased to be out with his parents. I stooped down to get closer to his height and asked him about the pamplet and if he thought it was something important. He was enthusiastic in his reply to the affirmative. I told him I was honestly very glad to take the pamphlet from him and I promised him I would read it and let him know that I thought that he was trying to do a wonderful thing. Though I disagree with their theology, I honor them for their dedication and I do not feel an obligation to agree with those whom I respect.

Clear
ειειφισεω

 

[Super Universe]

Well, you identified the constitution you would be teaching when you said.

"So I can change the US constitution and teach my version to your children in school and you will be okay with it then."
​

So we're only talking about one constitution, "the US constitution," and not one from some other country.

.

Yesterday the bible, today the constitution, tomorrow can be whatever. Things evolve quickly here.

 

[Super Universe]

Super Universe Said : "JW's are fulfilling the command given by Jesus to preach the kingdom message in all the world? Jesus did not say to torture your children by making them go up to other people's houses and preach what you want them to preach."

JayDee replied : "Most of our children love the preaching work because they love God and because they love telling people about the paradise to come."

I think SuperUniverses' comment on this point seemed petty and contextually inaccurate. I am not J.W. and do not agree with much of their theology but have found them, in the main, to be wonderfully dedicated and kind individuals. I would be very pleased to have one as my neighbor and friend.

I noticed a couple with a young son going from door to door and as they left a door, saw me walking and their little boy gave me a pamplet. He seemed very pleased to be out with his parents. I stooped down to get closer to his height and asked him about the pamplet and if he thought it was something important. He was enthusiastic in his reply to the affirmative. I told him I was honestly very glad to take the pamphlet from him and I promised him I would read it and let him know that I thought that he was trying to do a wonderful thing. Though I disagree with their theology, I honor them for their dedication and I do not feel an obligation to agree with those whom I respect.

Clear
ειειφισεω

You have found the JW's to be wonderfully delicate and kind? Ever lived with one? How many of their children have you known? I know one JW kid who became addicted to drugs at 16 because his father, one of the Kingdom Hall elders, was extremely strict and unforgiving in the home.

I know two girls who were raised JW and both of them are strippers now. I know another ex-JW kid who is now grown up, he is a functioning alcoholic and drug addict and his brother is not into drugs anymore but he has extremely low self esteem and he married a very over weight ex-drug addict lady who lost her kids to CPS and she hasn't seen them in 20 years and she has not tried to contact them ever.

Have you ever seen a kid tremble because they are so scared to preach religion to strangers? Some kids at first are so scared that they throw up on the driveway. Some start wetting the bed.

I spent 12 years as JW. You saw them on the street once or twice and you think you know JW's.

 

[Super Universe]

This guy says that 75% of Jehovah's Witness kids do not stay with the church when they grow up.

https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/young-ones-leaving.php

I was forced to attend from age 4 to age 16, so 12 years. I don't know a single JW kid who stayed in the church once they reached adulthood.

It's all a system of control. God gave us all free will and men took that free will and invented rules so they could act like they are the god of the house over the women and children.

 

[Deeje]

You have found the JW's to be wonderfully delicate and kind? Ever lived with one? How many of their children have you known? I know one JW kid who became addicted to drugs at 16 because his father, one of the Kingdom Hall elders, was extremely strict and unforgiving in the home.

I know two girls who were raised JW and both of them are strippers now. I know another ex-JW kid who is now grown up, he is a functioning alcoholic and drug addict and his brother is not into drugs anymore but he has extremely low self esteem and he married a very over weight ex-drug addict lady who lost her kids to CPS and she hasn't seen them in 20 years and she has not tried to contact them ever.

Have you ever seen a kid tremble because they are so scared to preach religion to strangers? Some kids at first are so scared that they throw up on the driveway. Some start wetting the bed.

I spent 12 years as JW. You saw them on the street once or twice and you think you know JW's.

This is ridiculous.....I believe that you are totally exaggerating the truth here. You did not spend 12 years as a JW...you never were a JW. Two Sundays a month with your fingers in your ears and your mind wishing you were somewhere else, how can you ever say you were a Witness? Not even close.

If your father was the ogre you make him out to be then you had a bad example. It happens. We are no more perfect than any other human beings. We have our flaws just like you do, but you make it sound as if all JW's are as twisted as you seem to be. That has never been my experience. I am totally happy in my spiritual family and I love the preaching work. We meet some amazing people and many of them accept Bible studies and come into our family. They are not miserable but more relaxed and happy with their lives than they have ever been.

The one thing your examples have in common is that they left the religion and screwed their lives up big time. That was their choice. (Like the prodigal son) You think those who stay in our faith go on to be strippers, alcoholics and drug addicts? I know many fine young people who don't leave and are perfectly happy and balanced individuals who go on to marry fellow believers and raise their children in the faith as normal happy, healthy kids. We get great feedback from teachers because our kids are normally very well behaved and well mannered. We get commendation from the managers of facilities we hire for our conventions because we leave them better than we found them. We are known for our honesty and work ethic. Prejudice is nothing new but it can make a person get all bent out of shape and distort their perceptions.

Its like you are stuck in some dark nightmare.....you have a lot of baggage and I think it shows more than you realize.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello, Katzpur! I hope you’ve been well.
I must say, you’ve come into contact with me a few times on this forum, and we’ve had pleasant exchanges.

My apologies, Cowboy. You and I have never had anything but pleasant exchanges. I appreciate your reminding me of that; I was out of line in my generalization.

 

[Super Universe]

This is ridiculous.....I believe that you are totally exaggerating the truth here. You did not spend 12 years as a JW...you never were a JW. Two Sundays a month with your fingers in your ears and your mind wishing you were somewhere else, how can you ever say you were a Witness? Not even close.

If your father was the ogre you make him out to be then you had a bad example. It happens. We are no more perfect than any other human beings. We have our flaws just like you do, but you make it sound as if all JW's are as twisted as you seem to be. That has never been my experience. I am totally happy in my spiritual family and I love the preaching work. We meet some amazing people and many of them accept Bible studies and come into our family. They are not miserable but more relaxed and happy with their lives than they have ever been.

The one thing your examples have in common is that they left the religion and screwed their lives up big time. That was their choice. (Like the prodigal son) You think those who stay in our faith go on to be strippers, alcoholics and drug addicts? I know many fine young people who don't leave and are perfectly happy and balanced individuals who go on to marry fellow believers and raise their children in the faith as normal happy, healthy kids. We get great feedback from teachers because our kids are normally very well behaved and well mannered. We get commendation from the managers of facilities we hire for our conventions because we leave them better than we found them. We are known for our honesty and work ethic. Prejudice is nothing new but it can make a person get all bent out of shape and distort their perceptions.

Its like you are stuck in some dark nightmare.....you have a lot of baggage and I think it shows more than you realize.

No, I was not a real full time JW. I never accepted any of it but I still had the experience, much more than just meeting them at the door.

My father was not an ogre. He was uneducated and very full of himself, and he had to be "god" of his household over the women and even over the women's kids (when he married my mom she already had 3 kids and then when he married the next JW lady she had 3 kids as well).

I had a bad example? Every JW kid has a bad example. Any parent who puts Charlie Taze Russell's belief's over their children's happiness is naturally going to give a bad example.

Charlie was not a visionary. He was not smarter than the rest of the people of the time. He was upset that his mommy always threatened him with burning in hellfire whenever he did something wrong so he invented a religion that denies the existence of hellfire.

JW's are not perfect? No, they're not the worst people in the world. They just put way too much trust in the ideas of Charles Taze Russell.

You are totally happy with your spiritual family? Religion taints true spirituality. Religion is a means of control. Religion is a means to feel superior over others.

JW's meet some amazing people and many of them come into your family? I don't see JW church's going up all over the place.

The JW kid examples I posted are kids who left the religion and screwed up their lives big time? When you choose religion over the relationship with your kids, that causes trauma. When you force them to go door to door, that causes big time trauma. When you force them to sit for two hours every Sunday and listen to Charles Taze Russells boring beliefs, that causes trauma. When you tell them they cannot celebrate traditional holiday's that other kids are celebrating, that is hurting them. You're not teaching them to have free thought or free will, you are teaching them to comply, be like the kids in North Korea or be a Borg, be a little robot for Charles Taze Russell.

Your kids are normally well behaved and well mannered? So are the kids in North Korea. They march perfectly in step.

JW's are known for your honesty? Some of the stories you tell are made up.

It's like I am stuck in some dark nightmare? I escaped half of the dark nightmare when I was 16 and the other half at age 20 when I left home.

I have a lot of baggage? I wouldn't change it for less baggage. Learning the truth about people is a hard lesson but it's probably the most important one of all.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

My apologies, Cowboy. You and I have never had anything but pleasant exchanges. I appreciate your reminding me of that; I was out of line in my generalization.

You're very sweet. Best wishes.
(Did I read correctly that you recently got married?)

 

[Katzpur]

(Did I read correctly that you recently got married?)

Nope, you must be thinking of someone else. I've been happily married to the same man for 47 years now. His name is Matt, and he's a gem. I know it bugs him, but I refer to him as "St. Matthew."

 

[Deeje]

I was forced to attend from age 4 to age 16, so 12 years. I don't know a single JW kid who stayed in the church once they reached adulthood.

It's all a system of control. God gave us all free will and men took that free will and invented rules so they could act like they are the god of the house over the women and children.

When you say you were 'forced to attend meetings'....can you tell me what responsible parent leaves their young children at home whilst they attend 'church'? What did you expect your father to do if the rest of the family was going to the meeting?

It appears that you were a victim of the legal system which deemed that both of your parents had access to you as a minor. If neither of them did you any favors and you bolted at 16 from your father, who supposedly abandoned you over your acne (how ridiculous!) then perhaps you were a right royal pain in the backside and he realized that all his efforts were wasted? When a child grows to maturity, it is up to them to decide whether the religion of their parents is right for them. No one is born a JW. It is a choice....and no one can force it because that is not what God wants. Your experience is warped from your perspective.....it is certainly not the perspective of those who choose to become JW's because they want to. You didn't want to and that is your prerogative. Not everyone has your experience or even the perception of it.

No, I was not a real full time JW. I never accepted any of it but I still had the experience, much more than just meeting them at the door.

Your "experience" has jaded your view to say the least. The impression it left on you has lasted a lifetime....but what if the impression was mostly your own doing spawned by a bad attitude on your part, coupled with the bad example set by two apparently unbalanced parents,(according to you) one of whom you describe as an alcoholic abuser?

My father was not an ogre. He was uneducated and very full of himself, and he had to be "god" of his household over the women and even over the women's kids (when he married my mom she already had 3 kids and then when he married the next JW lady she had 3 kids as well).

This is a true picture of dis-functionality. You paint your father as an ogre and then say he wasn't.

Being a family head was often misinterpreted in times past to mean "I am the boss"....this is not what the scriptures teach. Family heads are to handle their assignment as Christ handled his headship over the congregation. It was to be headship exercised with love, not a dictatorship that demanded obedience or else. That is not how Jesus conducted himself.

Every JW kid has a bad example. Any parent who puts Charlie Taze Russell's belief's over their children's happiness is naturally going to give a bad example.

This is your warped perception....it is your experience through your own eyes....I wonder what your father's version of events would reveal? Were you the poor hard done by child you paint yourself to be? Or were you the troubled teen who just wanted to do his own thing? Who would know from what you post? We only have your side of the story. You could have been a rebellious little twerp for all we know.

You are totally happy with your spiritual family? Religion taints true spirituality. Religion is a means of control. Religion is a means to feel superior over others.

That being the case, then Jesus was nothing but a controlling dictator. Religion is an organized way to serve the interests of a very organized God. The Jews had an organized religion and Jesus was Jewish.

I don't see JW church's going up all over the place.

They are going up by the thousands every year all over the world. Between 1999 and 2013, 26,849 Kingdom Halls were built by 230,000 volunteers in 88 different countries. There is a constant need for thousands more as our ranks increase.

The JW kid examples I posted are kids who left the religion and screwed up their lives big time?

It is too easy to blame parents for your own shortcomings. I agree that messing up your children is not something most parents set out to do...but it happens because we are all imperfect and sometimes parents are the result of bad parenting and poor role models themselves. On reaching adulthood however, we are all then free to validate or invalidate what our parents taught us, either by example or by their words. Therapy exists to assist those who are damaged to heal the wounds.

Some of the stories you tell are made up.

I have to say that the ones you posted appear to be made up. They are not in the realms of my experience by a long shot. Do we have kids like you were? Yes we do and if they choose to leave, then so be it.
God doesn't want anyone who doesn't want to be there....and neither do we.

I escaped half of the dark nightmare when I was 16 and the other half at age 20 when I left home.

Nightmares tend to continue if we don't heal what caused them. I am saddened to see a heart so poisoned.

Learning the truth about people is a hard lesson but it's probably the most important one of all.

The truth about people is good to know, but distortions based on one person's bad experience is not useful in determining the calibre of the entire brotherhood. There are way more good people than bad in our ranks. The ones who are not serving Jehovah with all their heart will soon be weeded out. We would sooner they leave than stay around and cause dissension.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Nope, you must be thinking of someone else. I've been happily married to the same man for 47 years now. His name is Matt, and he's a gem. I know it bugs him, but I refer to him as "St. Matthew."

47 years, wow! And he’s still a “gem” to you? Fantastic! (That tells me both of you are two good forgivers.) I’m so happy for the two of you! May you have many, many more anniversaries!

 

[siti]

You're missing the fact that I am not a fundamentalist.

I never said you were. In the case outlined in your PO you were the target audience not the fundamentalist. The rest of your post simply proves my point - namely, that you do not understand the difference between a quotation and a citation. In any case, the only way to know for sure that a scripture verse had been changed would be to go back to the original manuscript (which doesn't even exist) and compare the text in the original language (ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek depending on which part of the Bible it is) which I am assuming you do not read anyway. The King James Bible is hardly a paragon of faithful and consistent translation - even of the manuscripts available when it was produced and we have discovered both more ancient manuscripts and more about the way the ancient languages were written in the 400 years since the good ol' KJV was authorized by His Majesty.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

....when you change it....

Where’s the change? The various translations of Revelation 21:5 read similarly.

 

[Super Universe]

When you say you were 'forced to attend meetings'....can you tell me what responsible parent leaves their young children at home whilst they attend 'church'? What did you expect your father to do if the rest of the family was going to the meeting?

It appears that you were a victim of the legal system which deemed that both of your parents had access to you as a minor. If neither of them did you any favors and you bolted at 16 from your father, who supposedly abandoned you over your acne (how ridiculous!) then perhaps you were a right royal pain in the backside and he realized that all his efforts were wasted? When a child grows to maturity, it is up to them to decide whether the religion of their parents is right for them. No one is born a JW. It is a choice....and no one can force it because that is not what God wants. Your experience is warped from your perspective.....it is certainly not the perspective of those who choose to become JW's because they want to. You didn't want to and that is your prerogative. Not everyone has your experience or even the perception of it.



Your "experience" has jaded your view to say the least. The impression it left on you has lasted a lifetime....but what if the impression was mostly your own doing spawned by a bad attitude on your part, coupled with the bad example set by two apparently unbalanced parents,(according to you) one of whom you describe as an alcoholic abuser?



This is a true picture of dis-functionality. You paint your father as an ogre and then say he wasn't.

Being a family head was often misinterpreted in times past to mean "I am the boss"....this is not what the scriptures teach. Family heads are to handle their assignment as Christ handled his headship over the congregation. It was to be headship exercised with love, not a dictatorship that demanded obedience or else. That is not how Jesus conducted himself.



This is your warped perception....it is your experience through your own eyes....I wonder what your father's version of events would reveal? Were you the poor hard done by child you paint yourself to be? Or were you the troubled teen who just wanted to do his own thing? Who would know from what you post? We only have your side of the story. You could have been a rebellious little twerp for all we know.



That being the case, then Jesus was nothing but a controlling dictator. Religion is an organized way to serve the interests of a very organized God. The Jews had an organized religion and Jesus was Jewish.



They are going up by the thousands every year all over the world. Between 1999 and 2013, 26,849 Kingdom Halls were built by 230,000 volunteers in 88 different countries. There is a constant need for thousands more as our ranks increase.



It is too easy to blame parents for your own shortcomings. I agree that messing up your children is not something most parents set out to do...but it happens because we are all imperfect and sometimes parents are the result of bad parenting and poor role models themselves. On reaching adulthood however, we are all then free to validate or invalidate what our parents taught us, either by example or by their words. Therapy exists to assist those who are damaged to heal the wounds.



I have to say that the ones you posted appear to be made up. They are not in the realms of my experience by a long shot. Do we have kids like you were? Yes we do and if they choose to leave, then so be it.
God doesn't want anyone who doesn't want to be there....and neither do we.

Nightmares tend to continue if we don't heal what caused them. I am saddened to see a heart so poisoned.



The truth about people is good to know, but distortions based on one person's bad experience is not useful in determining the calibre of the entire brotherhood. There are way more good people than bad in our ranks. The ones who are not serving Jehovah with all their heart will soon be weeded out. We would sooner they leave than stay around and cause dissension.

The National Safe Kids Campaign recommends that kids should be 12 years old before they are allowed to stay home alone. The truth is that there is now way JW parents or any other very religious parents are going to allow their children to stay at home because religion is about control. People always want to push their beliefs onto others and children can't really do anything about it.

What did I expect my father to do? Ask me whether I would like to miss out on the Kingdom Hall experience and respect my decision.

I was a victim of a legal system? I was not a victim of the legal system. In 1971 mothers almost always got custody and fathers got two weekends a month visitation.

I did not bolt from my father at age 16. He stopped picking me up for his weekends and I never called him to find out why because the weekend that I had seen him he went berserk because he thought I was being punished by God.

Maybe I was a pain in the backside? I rarely talked. I completely closed down because I was so afraid to say anything around him. Jokes did not serve God. Music did not serve God. Funny stories were lies. There was no point in talking since everything was forbidden. I did wet the bed sometimes but only on the weekends at my dads. Even with all the abuse at home with my mom I never once wet the bed there. I think my dad felt that I did not buy into the JW thing simply because I had asked questions.

When a child grows to maturity it is up to them to decide whether the religion of their parents is right for them? But JW's teach that you are to cut people out of their lives if they do not accept the JW beliefs. For some kids it's just easier to pretend that they are into the JW thing just so they can still have a relationship with their parents.

No one is born a JW? Sure they are. Many kids do get out and do their own thing but what child or young adult doesn't need their parents any more?

My perspective is not the same as those who choose to be JW's? Of course it's not. Those who choose to be JW's think they are going to get paradise earth. They think that God is going to fix things so all they have to do is wait. That is not what's going to happen. God does not fix things for you or for humanity. Humans have to do it. And, believe it or not, some people join religions because they like the idea that others are going to burn for believing something different.

What if it was all my fault? Right, blame the children for being afraid to go door to door and not accepting the primitive belief that God is an angry and jealous God who burns people. If I or anyone chooses to not accept JW beliefs then it would have to be our fault, right? It couldn't be JW's.

I paint my father as an ogre and then say he wasn't? Ogre is your chosen word, not mine. He was not abusive, just very cold, unemotional, and uneducated, but absolutely in total control of the house. To me the JW religion was and is abusive. You don't spank your kids at church just because they fall asleep.

Family heads are to handle it like Christ? In the 70's JW's did not preach about Christ very much. All this JW's preaching about Jesus is new. My dad used to say that Christians give too much worship to Jesus and he always argued that Jesus did not die on the cross but on a stake.

You wonder what my father's version would reveal? Probably that I was very quiet and never talked. Probably that I would run from his car when he dropped me off at home. Probably that I never called him and never said "I love you" to him and that I never gave him a father's day card. And he might say that one time in a store I asked him to buy me a set of green plastic army soldiers and he wouldn't do it because JW's don't believe in green plastic army soldiers. And he might say that he paid $3,000 for my teeth to get fixed when I was 12 years old and one time he paid the school $300 so I could get an extra milk for a month. Oh, and I'm sure he would bring up the time I threw a crying tantrum at Disneyland because he would not buy me a black cowboy hat. Yep, I was just soooo bad.

I could have been a rebellious little twerp? Right, blame the children. It's their fault.

Jesus was a controlling dictator? If one of the apostles wanted to leave the group, would Jesus have said "No, now go up to all the doors in the town and sell magazines."

Jesus did not establish a religion, that was done much later. Jesus did not build a church. His "church" was people.

Religion is an organized way to serve the interests of God? How would you know what the interests of God are? From books written thousands of years ago by men who were afraid of comets?

Jesus was Jewish? A Jew who preached new ideas and condemned certain ideas like stoning to death.

JW church's are going up by the thousands every year all over the world? 8.13 million regulars, which sounds like a lot until you realize that is out of 7.4 billion people worldwide. JW's make up just 0.8% of the US population, that is behind Muslims, Hindus, Chinese, and Buddhists, and atheists.

It's easy to blame parents for my own shortcomings? I blame them for their actions. I also blame them for hindering my development of better social skills because I could not talk to either of them without getting a snotty answer or a "God will provide" answer. Other than that, I have way more education that either of them ever got, way more money than they ever had, I retired much earlier than they did, I've seen more of the world, and I created something beautiful. And I know a whole lot more jokes than either of them. That's more than a lot of people can say.

The stories I posted appear to be made up? They would have to be, right? Anything bad about JW's just has to be made up.

God does not want anyone who does not want to be there? God creates beauty. What beauty is there in a Kingdom Hall? It's dry, boring, dull, a completely inhuman place. You chose to make your religion boring. God is not boring, God created music, art, laughter, happiness, you think we laugh because it's some mistake?

There are more good people than bad in the JW ranks? When a JW does something wrong it's not the religions fault, it's the person's fault because JW religion is perfect in every way.

 

[Super Universe]

I never said you were. In the case outlined in your PO you were the target audience not the fundamentalist. The rest of your post simply proves my point - namely, that you do not understand the difference between a quotation and a citation. In any case, the only way to know for sure that a scripture verse had been changed would be to go back to the original manuscript (which doesn't even exist) and compare the text in the original language (ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek depending on which part of the Bible it is) which I am assuming you do not read anyway. The King James Bible is hardly a paragon of faithful and consistent translation - even of the manuscripts available when it was produced and we have discovered both more ancient manuscripts and more about the way the ancient languages were written in the 400 years since the good ol' KJV was authorized by His Majesty.

The only way to know whether a scripture has been changed would be to go back to the original manuscript? I was not complaining about a change from the original manuscript.

My compliant was that they are changing things from the current bible and citing the current bible. They are even printing in their magazines changed things from THEIR own bible.

 

[Super Universe]

Where’s the change? The various translations of Revelation 21:5 read similarly.

So to you:

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, there shall be no more death, or sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

Is similar to:

I am comforted by my belief that God will soon bring complete justice to the earth and will right all wrongs. In the meantime, I cherish each day of life and do what I reasonable can to preserve it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No problem. The biggest differences is JWs take an anti-trinitarian stance so scripture commonly associated with trinity beliefs are the biggest difference betweenthe NWT and other English translations. Especially John 1:1, the most hotly debated example.

Yes, interpreting John 1:1 correctly is necessary, but it can cause contention! First off, saying as it does that the Word was “with God”, and then state the “Word was God”, sounds confusing to begin with, like some interpretation is required.

What’s the deal? Do all scholars agree with that rendering?

No.

In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, (ie., “....and god was the word”), are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) (Parentheses are mine.) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”

And another scholar, highly acclaimed Roman Catholic priest, (a Trinitarian, I might add,) John J. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317. (Italics and bold type are mine.)
This man was honest enough to admit John 1:1 doesn’t support Jesus as being God.

In harmony with the above, AT reads: “the Word was divine”; Mo, “the Logos was divine”; NTIV, “the word was a god.” In his German translation Ludwig Thimme expresses it in this way: “God of a sort the Word was.” Referring to the Word (who became Jesus Christ) as “a god” is consistent with the use of that term in the rest of the Scriptures. For example, at Psalm 82:1-6 human judges in Israel were referred to as “gods” (Hebrew, ’elo·himʹ; Greek, the·oiʹ, at John 10:34) because they were representatives of Jehovah and were to speak his law.

Someone may respond with, “John 1:1 deals with God’s nature”. Well, in discussing the terms “essence” and “nature”, the aforementioned scholar John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899. (Bold type and italics are mine.)

Hope this helps.

Peace to all!

 

[siti]

My compliant was that they are changing things from the current bible and citing the current bible. They are even printing in their magazines changed things from THEIR own bible.

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, there shall be no more death, or sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

Is similar to:

I am comforted by my belief that God will soon bring complete justice to the earth and will right all wrongs. In the meantime, I cherish each day of life and do what I reasonable can to preserve it.

Jeepers...you're still stuck aren't you...

What this:

"I am comforted by my belief that God will soon bring complete justice to the earth and will right all wrongs. In the meantime, I cherish each day of life and do what I reasonable can to preserve it. (Revelation 21:5)"

means is:

'I am comforted by my belief that God will soon bring complete justice to the earth and will right all wrongs. In the meantime, I cherish each day of life and do what I reasonable can to preserve it...because Revelation 21:5 says "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, there shall be no more death, or sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."'

The scriptural reference is cited (not quoted) so you can look it up and see that it gives support for the statement to the effect that the prophecy (in Revelation 21:5) is comforting to those who long for a time when God will "right all wrongs".

Nobody has changed anything in any Bible and you can read it in a 20th century version or a 17th century one it still says the same thing.

Whether you want to believe it is a different question of course.

 

[Deeje]

The National Safe Kids Campaign recommends that kids should be 12 years old before they are allowed to stay home alone. The truth is that there is now way JW parents or any other very religious parents are going to allow their children to stay at home because religion is about control. People always want to push their beliefs onto others and children can't really do anything about it.

What did I expect my father to do? Ask me whether I would like to miss out on the Kingdom Hall experience and respect my decision.

I was a victim of a legal system? I was not a victim of the legal system. In 1971 mothers almost always got custody and fathers got two weekends a month visitation.

I did not bolt from my father at age 16. He stopped picking me up for his weekends and I never called him to find out why because the weekend that I had seen him he went berserk because he thought I was being punished by God.

Maybe I was a pain in the backside? I rarely talked. I completely closed down because I was so afraid to say anything around him. Jokes did not serve God. Music did not serve God. Funny stories were lies. There was no point in talking since everything was forbidden. I did wet the bed sometimes but only on the weekends at my dads. Even with all the abuse at home with my mom I never once wet the bed there. I think my dad felt that I did not buy into the JW thing simply because I had asked questions.

When a child grows to maturity it is up to them to decide whether the religion of their parents is right for them? But JW's teach that you are to cut people out of their lives if they do not accept the JW beliefs. For some kids it's just easier to pretend that they are into the JW thing just so they can still have a relationship with their parents.

No one is born a JW? Sure they are. Many kids do get out and do their own thing but what child or young adult doesn't need their parents any more?

My perspective is not the same as those who choose to be JW's? Of course it's not. Those who choose to be JW's think they are going to get paradise earth. They think that God is going to fix things so all they have to do is wait. That is not what's going to happen. God does not fix things for you or for humanity. Humans have to do it. And, believe it or not, some people join religions because they like the idea that others are going to burn for believing something different.

What if it was all my fault? Right, blame the children for being afraid to go door to door and not accepting the primitive belief that God is an angry and jealous God who burns people. If I or anyone chooses to not accept JW beliefs then it would have to be our fault, right? It couldn't be JW's.

I paint my father as an ogre and then say he wasn't? Ogre is your chosen word, not mine. He was not abusive, just very cold, unemotional, and uneducated, but absolutely in total control of the house. To me the JW religion was and is abusive. You don't spank your kids at church just because they fall asleep.

Family heads are to handle it like Christ? In the 70's JW's did not preach about Christ very much. All this JW's preaching about Jesus is new. My dad used to say that Christians give too much worship to Jesus and he always argued that Jesus did not die on the cross but on a stake.

You wonder what my father's version would reveal? Probably that I was very quiet and never talked. Probably that I would run from his car when he dropped me off at home. Probably that I never called him and never said "I love you" to him and that I never gave him a father's day card. And he might say that one time in a store I asked him to buy me a set of green plastic army soldiers and he wouldn't do it because JW's don't believe in green plastic army soldiers. And he might say that he paid $3,000 for my teeth to get fixed when I was 12 years old and one time he paid the school $300 so I could get an extra milk for a month. Oh, and I'm sure he would bring up the time I threw a crying tantrum at Disneyland because he would not buy me a black cowboy hat. Yep, I was just soooo bad.

I could have been a rebellious little twerp? Right, blame the children. It's their fault.

Jesus was a controlling dictator? If one of the apostles wanted to leave the group, would Jesus have said "No, now go up to all the doors in the town and sell magazines."

Jesus did not establish a religion, that was done much later. Jesus did not build a church. His "church" was people.

Religion is an organized way to serve the interests of God? How would you know what the interests of God are? From books written thousands of years ago by men who were afraid of comets?

Jesus was Jewish? A Jew who preached new ideas and condemned certain ideas like stoning to death.

JW church's are going up by the thousands every year all over the world? 8.13 million regulars, which sounds like a lot until you realize that is out of 7.4 billion people worldwide. JW's make up just 0.8% of the US population, that is behind Muslims, Hindus, Chinese, and Buddhists, and atheists.

It's easy to blame parents for my own shortcomings? I blame them for their actions. I also blame them for hindering my development of better social skills because I could not talk to either of them without getting a snotty answer or a "God will provide" answer. Other than that, I have way more education that either of them ever got, way more money than they ever had, I retired much earlier than they did, I've seen more of the world, and I created something beautiful. And I know a whole lot more jokes than either of them. That's more than a lot of people can say.

The stories I posted appear to be made up? They would have to be, right? Anything bad about JW's just has to be made up.

God does not want anyone who does not want to be there? God creates beauty. What beauty is there in a Kingdom Hall? It's dry, boring, dull, a completely inhuman place. You chose to make your religion boring. God is not boring, God created music, art, laughter, happiness, you think we laugh because it's some mistake?

There are more good people than bad in the JW ranks? When a JW does something wrong it's not the religions fault, it's the person's fault because JW religion is perfect in every way.

To carry this much animosity for over 40 years is a testimony to how messed up you became.

The expression is to "harbor grudges"....and this is what I see you doing. Those grudges are given very safe haven in an unforgiving heart.....the events of your childhood are obviously still all very raw for you....like it happened yesterday. Yesterday is gone but you can't seem to let it go.

You wouldn't recognize JW's anymore. The old days are gone and a whole new generation is keeping up with what is happening in the world and in the congregations.

Who said laughter and music were bad? Who said we can't share clean jokes? Seriously, you have no idea.....like you are caught in some kind of horrible time warp.

Our meetings are not dry and boring and neither are our publications. You are living in the past and it sounds like its way past time to move on.....anger and an unforgiving spirit eats you up from the inside. If you want Jesus' advice, he said that in order for God to forgive us, we have to forgive others. Where does that leave you, do you think? (Matthew 6:14-15; 18:21-22) Try forgiveness.....its so much better for the spirit than stored up resentment.