Jesus a magician?

[Byjayfzv]

Even if Jesus Christ existed and actually performed extraordinary "miracles", how do we know he didn't use magic to perform what he did.
In the bible, in the book of exodus, chapter 23 it says that "a sorcerer shall be put to death". The bible would not say to put a sorcerer to death if sorcery did not exist. Once we know it exists, please explain how can we trust Jesus and his miracles?

 

[Tumah]

Because he said so?

On a more serious note, this could be the Talmud's position.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Even if Jesus Christ existed and actually performed extraordinary "miracles", how do we know he didn't use magic to perform what he did.
In the bible, in the book of exodus, chapter 23 it says that "a sorcerer shall be put to death". The bible would not say to put a sorcerer to death if sorcery did not exist. Once we know it exists, please explain how can we trust Jesus and his miracles?

Did Jesus agree with the preceding Scriptures? Christians would say yes, and therefore is not some counterfeit.

Jesus rose from the dead and was crucified, to save His people from their sins. He was not a grand self-seeking phoney but a humble and lowly carpenter, He does not fit the 'false magician' bill.

The Apostles' lives were transformed by being with Jesus and witnessing Him risen. Jesus was stabbed in the side and brutally murdered on the cross, but came back to life, and the Apostles witnessed this and were so compelled they were now willing to die for this message. A sorcerer who is out to deceive would want to serve himself, he would deceive in order to get money, or to get power, or fame, or sex, etc. Jesus came to die though, He speaks of His death on many occasions to the Apostles, devoted to glorifying God. Once again, His actions do not fit the bill of a false magician.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of driving out demons by the devil's power, but Jesus replied how can Satan drive out Satan? A house divided cannot stand.

Another point would be the ascension. The Apostles witnessed Jesus ascend into heaven. If this was some sort of sorcery, where did Jesus actually go? He disappeared from the earth. He did not gain anything in this life on earth, but taught a message of radical love, the love of God for His own enemies, to die for them and reconcile them to Himself.

 

[Ultimatum]

Even if Jesus Christ existed and actually performed extraordinary "miracles", how do we know he didn't use magic to perform what he did.
In the bible, in the book of exodus, chapter 23 it says that "a sorcerer shall be put to death". The bible would not say to put a sorcerer to death if sorcery did not exist. Once we know it exists, please explain how can we trust Jesus and his miracles?

I believe it's more of a "fingers crossed" issue.

 

[Byjayfzv]

Did Jesus agree with the preceding Scriptures? Christians would say yes, and therefore is not some counterfeit.

Jesus rose from the dead and was crucified, to save His people from their sins. He was not a grand self-seeking phoney but a humble and lowly carpenter, He does not fit the 'false magician' bill.

The Apostles' lives were transformed by being with Jesus and witnessing Him risen. Jesus was stabbed in the side and brutally murdered on the cross, but came back to life, and the Apostles witnessed this and were so compelled they were now willing to die for this message. A sorcerer who is out to deceive would want to serve himself, he would deceive in order to get money, or to get power, or fame, or sex, etc. Jesus came to die though, He speaks of His death on many occasions to the Apostles, devoted to glorifying God. Once again, His actions do not fit the bill of a false magician.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of driving out demons by the devil's power, but Jesus replied how can Satan drive out Satan? A house divided cannot stand.

Another point would be the ascension. The Apostles witnessed Jesus ascend into heaven. If this was some sort of sorcery, where did Jesus actually go? He disappeared from the earth. He did not gain anything in this life on earth, but taught a message of radical love, the love of God for His own enemies, to die for them and reconcile them to Himself.

Just because Jesus was a humble carpenter and decided to give up his life does not mean he can't be a phony. That may be a reason not to assume right away that he is a phony but that does not mean he couldn't be a phony. There were plenty of religions and cults led by 'Jesus like' leaders yet we all know they are phony.

 

[Byjayfzv]

W

Because he said so?

On a more serious note, this could be the Talmud's position.

Does Talmud say what the motives of Jesus were or the Talmud assumes that Jesus was insane?

 

[oldbadger]

Even if Jesus Christ existed and actually performed extraordinary "miracles", how do we know he didn't use magic to perform what he did.

Hi......
My guess is that Jesus the carpenter and healer did exist.
My guess is that Jesus was just an extraordinary guy with healing, herbal, medical and placebo knowledge, and whose healings seemed miraculous to those who observed, and their reports pushed the stories into miracle. We do that today when we can't explain people's amazing abilities, I think.... ?
Most of Jesus's healings as explain in the Gospel of Mark can be explained.......... and the other gospels just push it too far....

In the bible, in the book of exodus, chapter 23 it says that "a sorcerer shall be put to death". The bible would not say to put a sorcerer to death if sorcery did not exist. Once we know it exists, please explain how can we trust Jesus and his miracles?

Ah ha! So you're not sure about reports of Jesus, but you swallow Exodus down 'hook, line and sinker'...?
I wonder what a sorcerer was, what the definition was, back then..... Certainly the tribes' leadership did not want its folks following the ideas and guidance of any others......... I reckon tghat anybody who got in the way of the leadership was looking for a quick death.
But a natural healer? Who knew about herbs and charismatic-stun techniques, etc? I'll bet that old Moses was taking his achy knees to such as Jesus, but getting to the front of the queue a bit easier!

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Just because Jesus was a humble carpenter and decided to give up his life does not mean he can't be a phony. That may be a reason not to assume right away that he is a phony but that does not mean he couldn't be a phony. There were plenty of religions and cults led by 'Jesus like' leaders yet we all know they are phony.

Well I suppose the same question can be asked, how do you know the God of the Old Testament isn't a phoney, some great evil spirit that wants to deceive everyone? There is an element of trust involved, and when I read the Gospels they do not show me a false magician but the glory and nature of God, and the fulfilment of His entire redemptive plan from the book of Genesis.

Another important thing to consider is what sorcery exactly was in the Old Testament, and I do not see anything that would suggest it could ever be on the scale of the sorts of things Jesus did, especially the resurrection and ascension. Take the followers of Baal for example, whose magicians could not set the wood on fire, but Elijah called upon God from heaven and it worked. I think the magic in the Old Testament was mostly the counterfeit, trickery kind, not that much true supernatural power that could raise a man from the dead.

 

[Tumah]

W

Does Talmud say what the motives of Jesus were or the Talmud assumes that Jesus was insane?

His rabbi excommunicated him. At the end of the 30 days of excommunication, he went back to the rabbi to ask for forgiveness, but the rabbi was in the middle of praying and not allowed to respond. Jesus took that to mean that the rabbi was not willing to take him back. So, he left and did what he did.

 

[oae]

yes jesus is a magician. the bible is a scientific history fact to make a better world. But you want all religions gathered, hence make all people join up to make history. Hence some of us know that we're god and we still living. Some of our brains is made to make history, not a life. Hence i'm a socalled original and still living. we save the sick to find ways to save history. muslims is trying to save their women cause they want their woman when we get where we want. All wars will end in wars if they dont' go join christianity. Some of us women do not want to be all free, we do want the same thing but we wanna join in the process of making all independent. To save as many as possible from muslims will be what you want. Also african tribes has to be informed. hence let's save the sick before we do this.

 

[Tumah]

Well I suppose the same question can be asked, how do you know the God of the Old Testament isn't a phoney, some great evil spirit that wants to deceive everyone? There is an element of trust involved, and when I read the Gospels they do not show me a false magician but the glory and nature of God, and the fulfilment of His entire redemptive plan from the book of Genesis.

Another important thing to consider is what sorcery exactly was in the Old Testament, and I do not see anything that would suggest it could ever be on the scale of the sorts of things Jesus did, especially the resurrection and ascension. Take the followers of Baal for example, whose magicians could not set the wood on fire, but Elijah called upon God from heaven and it worked. I think the magic in the Old Testament was mostly the counterfeit, trickery kind, not that much true supernatural power that could raise a man from the dead.

I think this is a bit of a false equivalence. The case by Ba'al were described as prophets, not magicians. A better example would be the story with Saul and the Ob magician lady in 1 Sam. 28.

 

[DawudTalut]

Peace be on you. Welcome.

 

[Pastek]

Even if Jesus Christ existed and actually performed extraordinary "miracles", how do we know he didn't use magic to perform what he did.

I've never seen a sorcerer who resurrected people.

 

[Pastek]

His rabbi excommunicated him. At the end of the 30 days of excommunication, he went back to the rabbi to ask for forgiveness, but the rabbi was in the middle of praying and not allowed to respond. Jesus took that to mean that the rabbi was not willing to take him back. So, he left and did what he did.

Is it possible to read this online ?

 

[Tumah]

Is it possible to read this online ?

I guess. How's your Aramaic?

 

[Pastek]

I guess. How's your Aramaic?

My skills in Aramaic are near to zero.

Are jews obliged to learn Aramaic or Hebrew to have acces to the Talmud ?

 

[Tumah]

My skills in Aramaic are near to zero.

Are jews obliged to learn Aramaic or Hebrew to have acces to the Talmud ?

Well, there's no law. But it is written in Aramaic, so its going to be hard to read without knowing those languages.

 

[Byjayfzv]

Well I suppose the same question can be asked, how do you know the God of the Old Testament isn't a phoney, some great evil spirit that wants to deceive everyone? There is an element of trust involved, and when I read the Gospels they do not show me a false magician but the glory and nature of God, and the fulfilment of His entire redemptive plan from the book of Genesis.

Another important thing to consider is what sorcery exactly was in the Old Testament, and I do not see anything that would suggest it could ever be on the scale of the sorts of things Jesus did, especially the resurrection and ascension. Take the followers of Baal for example, whose magicians could not set the wood on fire, but Elijah called upon God from heaven and it worked. I think the magic in the Old Testament was mostly the counterfeit, trickery kind, not that much true supernatural power that could raise a man from the dead.

But with this "element of trust" you mentioned one can trust any religion that seems somewhat appealing to them. As long as the leader is somewhat persuasive and charismatic and has some tricks up his sleeve.

Also, throughout history, there have been plenty of religions and cults that had innocent leaders that thought they had the truth. But, then, a question arises "why would these people lie?" Answer is irrelevant. But what we do see from here is that there are people in the world that will make things up and claim it to be truth. Because ALL religions are mutually exclusive. Jesus would be no different.

Take the cult, Heaven's Gate, for example. The cult leader very innocent , yet, a phony. He caused 38 innocent people to commit suicide. Watch his lectures on youtube.com. The cult leader's name is Marshall Applewhite. There was absolutely no basis or evidence for what he was saying, yet, became very successful.

 

[Byjayfzv]

His rabbi excommunicated him. At the end of the 30 days of excommunication, he went back to the rabbi to ask for forgiveness, but the rabbi was in the middle of praying and not allowed to respond. Jesus took that to mean that the rabbi was not willing to take him back. So, he left and did what he did.[/QUOTE

Do you know in which tractate and on what page?

 

[Tumah]

Sure. Sanhedrin 107b. You'll need to find one that has the edited-out parts as when the Talmud was printed, it generally had to go through a Christian censor before printing and they edited out anything they thought might be related to Christianity.