Jesus and Krishna--Two Peas In A Pod

[SeekingAllTruth]

Brother. Let me tell you something about this "parallel means plagiarism" idea of many.

Simple thing to assess. Both may have one source.

Yes, it's a common theme is dying/rising god legends.

Lord Raglan, in 1936, developed a 22-point myth-ritualist Hero archetype to account for common patterns across Indo-European cultures for Hero traditions, following myth-ritualists like James Frazer and S. H. Hooke:[2]

1. Mother is a royal virgin
2. Father is a king
3. Father often a near relative to mother
4. Unusual conception
5. Hero reputed to be son of god
6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7. Hero spirited away as a child
8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
9. No details of childhood
10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13. Becomes king
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
15. He prescribes laws
16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17. Driven from throne and city
18. Meets with mysterious death
19. Often at the top of a hill
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
21. His body is not buried
22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

See how many of the above fit Jesus.

Rank–Raglan mythotype - Wikipedia

 

[firedragon]

Yes, it's a common theme is dying/rising god legends.

Lord Raglan, in 1936, developed a 22-point myth-ritualist Hero archetype to account for common patterns across Indo-European cultures for Hero traditions, following myth-ritualists like James Frazer and S. H. Hooke:[2]

1. Mother is a royal virgin
2. Father is a king
3. Father often a near relative to mother
4. Unusual conception
5. Hero reputed to be son of god
6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7. Hero spirited away as a child
8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
9. No details of childhood
10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13. Becomes king
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
15. He prescribes laws
16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17. Driven from throne and city
18. Meets with mysterious death
19. Often at the top of a hill
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
21. His body is not buried
22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

See how many of the above fit Jesus.

Rank–Raglan mythotype - Wikipedia

I am addressing your OP, and you have not responded to a single exposure of your absolutely fallacious OP. When I say fallacious, I mean it. Fallacious.

We all critique religions and various things. But do it honestly with true information. Not with bogus information like in the OP.

You will never respond truthfully, like you just did here. So let me cut and paste the post I responded with to the OP though I know you will ignore it again. Well, what could you expect when someone claims he only quotes "scholars" but when asked "which scholar" no response is returned. Unbelievable really. Be honest and accept that you just blindly made a post with zero research. I am no Christian or a Hindu FYI. This is no debate, this is a bogus OP which the creator does not intend to accept with humility, is fallacious.

Read.

1. Yeshua and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.

If you read Mahabaratha you would note that Krishna lives in all beings. Vaasanath means live in. And nowhere in the Gospels will you find Jesus living in all beings. Jesus is conceptualised in the Trinity as "ever existing". He was always there as Jesus Christ the Son of God. Krishna was born new, then became divine as the Rigveda records him with out his divinity. In the Chandogya Upanishad he is spoken of as the "Son of Devaki" and a scholar. He is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu, Jesus is the only son. Jesus was born with no involvement of Joseph, unlike Krishna who had an earthly father. It is in the Purana's Krishna is elevated to deity. Where was he specifically referred to as Son of God? Krishna was a war veteran. A warrior. Jesus says "someone slaps you give the other cheek". Only in the eschatology the parable notes him asking for slaying of those who dont believe him.

2. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.

Krishna is NOT called the second person of the Trinity. He is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. It is Vishnu who is deemed the second person in the Hindu trinity if one wants to address it as a trinity.

3. Both had adoptive human fathers who were carpenters.

I think a hindu scholar or even any hindu for that matter would find this quite a stupendous and false claim. Unless you could provide a Hindu source that says King Vasudeva was a carpenter. Please do.

Also, the Bible does not say Joseph was a carpenter. It is a misnomer. Tektwn in Koine Greek does not mean carpenter. It means a craftsman, and could be a metal worker, a handy man, a man who works with his hands.

4. Jesus was conceived by a god. Krishna was the reincarnation of a god.

Krishna was an incarnation, not a reincarnation. Jesus was conceived by God in the Christian philosophy but he always existed as the son with God eternally. Krishna was not.

5. Both were killed by piercing--Jesus by nails and a spear, Krishna by an arrow

Next time, someone will say that a man was pierced by a needle and its the same as Jesus. Arrow and Nails? Also mate, you were wrong. Jesus was killed by piercing. He was killed by crucifixion. You dont die by piercing when crucified.

6. Both resurrected.

No. Krishna was not resurrected. He was already a divine being, and he only spoke to the guy who killed him and gave him forgiveness because he shot him by mistake thinking he was game in his hunting trip. Is that like the concept of Jesus?

I dont know where this kind of information is coming from. I do remember some guy who wrote about this kind of parallels almost a hundred years ago and is widely rejected as nonsense by scholars at large. Whatever your aim is with this kind of post, please do some more research before presenting such absurd thesis's. I do understand that there are parallels in most of these things but the points you have given are seriously flawed due to lack of simple research. In this day and age, this is surprising really.

Anyway, that's that I suppose.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I am addressing your OP, and you have not responded to a single exposure of your absolutely fallacious OP. When I say fallacious, I mean it. Fallacious.

We all critique religions and various things. But do it honestly with true information. Not with bogus information like in the OP.

You will never respond truthfully, like you just did here. So let me cut and paste the post I responded with to the OP though I know you will ignore it again. Well, what could you expect when someone claims he only quotes "scholars" but when asked "which scholar" no response is returned. Unbelievable really. Be honest and accept that you just blindly made a post with zero research. I am no Christian or a Hindu FYI. This is no debate, this is a bogus OP which the creator does not intend to accept with humility, is fallacious.

Read.

1. Yeshua and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.

If you read Mahabaratha you would note that Krishna lives in all beings. Vaasanath means live in. And nowhere in the Gospels will you find Jesus living in all beings. Jesus is conceptualised in the Trinity as "ever existing". He was always there as Jesus Christ the Son of God. Krishna was born new, then became divine as the Rigveda records him with out his divinity. In the Chandogya Upanishad he is spoken of as the "Son of Devaki" and a scholar. He is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu, Jesus is the only son. Jesus was born with no involvement of Joseph, unlike Krishna who had an earthly father. It is in the Purana's Krishna is elevated to deity. Where was he specifically referred to as Son of God? Krishna was a war veteran. A warrior. Jesus says "someone slaps you give the other cheek". Only in the eschatology the parable notes him asking for slaying of those who dont believe him.

2. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.

Krishna is NOT called the second person of the Trinity. He is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. It is Vishnu who is deemed the second person in the Hindu trinity if one wants to address it as a trinity.

3. Both had adoptive human fathers who were carpenters.

I think a hindu scholar or even any hindu for that matter would find this quite a stupendous and false claim. Unless you could provide a Hindu source that says King Vasudeva was a carpenter. Please do.

Also, the Bible does not say Joseph was a carpenter. It is a misnomer. Tektwn in Koine Greek does not mean carpenter. It means a craftsman, and could be a metal worker, a handy man, a man who works with his hands.

4. Jesus was conceived by a god. Krishna was the reincarnation of a god.

Krishna was an incarnation, not a reincarnation. Jesus was conceived by God in the Christian philosophy but he always existed as the son with God eternally. Krishna was not.

5. Both were killed by piercing--Jesus by nails and a spear, Krishna by an arrow

Next time, someone will say that a man was pierced by a needle and its the same as Jesus. Arrow and Nails? Also mate, you were wrong. Jesus was killed by piercing. He was killed by crucifixion. You dont die by piercing when crucified.

6. Both resurrected.

No. Krishna was not resurrected. He was already a divine being, and he only spoke to the guy who killed him and gave him forgiveness because he shot him by mistake thinking he was game in his hunting trip. Is that like the concept of Jesus?

I dont know where this kind of information is coming from. I do remember some guy who wrote about this kind of parallels almost a hundred years ago and is widely rejected as nonsense by scholars at large. Whatever your aim is with this kind of post, please do some more research before presenting such absurd thesis's. I do understand that there are parallels in most of these things but the points you have given are seriously flawed due to lack of simple research. In this day and age, this is surprising really.

Anyway, that's that I suppose.

I stand corrected.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I am addressing your OP, and you have not responded to a single exposure of your absolutely fallacious OP. When I say fallacious, I mean it. Fallacious.

We all critique religions and various things. But do it honestly with true information. Not with bogus information like in the OP.

You will never respond truthfully, like you just did here. So let me cut and paste the post I responded with to the OP though I know you will ignore it again. Well, what could you expect when someone claims he only quotes "scholars" but when asked "which scholar" no response is returned. Unbelievable really. Be honest and accept that you just blindly made a post with zero research. I am no Christian or a Hindu FYI. This is no debate, this is a bogus OP which the creator does not intend to accept with humility, is fallacious.

Read.

1. Yeshua and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.

If you read Mahabaratha you would note that Krishna lives in all beings. Vaasanath means live in. And nowhere in the Gospels will you find Jesus living in all beings. Jesus is conceptualised in the Trinity as "ever existing". He was always there as Jesus Christ the Son of God. Krishna was born new, then became divine as the Rigveda records him with out his divinity. In the Chandogya Upanishad he is spoken of as the "Son of Devaki" and a scholar. He is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu, Jesus is the only son. Jesus was born with no involvement of Joseph, unlike Krishna who had an earthly father. It is in the Purana's Krishna is elevated to deity. Where was he specifically referred to as Son of God? Krishna was a war veteran. A warrior. Jesus says "someone slaps you give the other cheek". Only in the eschatology the parable notes him asking for slaying of those who dont believe him.

2. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.

Krishna is NOT called the second person of the Trinity. He is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. It is Vishnu who is deemed the second person in the Hindu trinity if one wants to address it as a trinity.

3. Both had adoptive human fathers who were carpenters.

I think a hindu scholar or even any hindu for that matter would find this quite a stupendous and false claim. Unless you could provide a Hindu source that says King Vasudeva was a carpenter. Please do.

Also, the Bible does not say Joseph was a carpenter. It is a misnomer. Tektwn in Koine Greek does not mean carpenter. It means a craftsman, and could be a metal worker, a handy man, a man who works with his hands.

4. Jesus was conceived by a god. Krishna was the reincarnation of a god.

Krishna was an incarnation, not a reincarnation. Jesus was conceived by God in the Christian philosophy but he always existed as the son with God eternally. Krishna was not.

5. Both were killed by piercing--Jesus by nails and a spear, Krishna by an arrow

Next time, someone will say that a man was pierced by a needle and its the same as Jesus. Arrow and Nails? Also mate, you were wrong. Jesus was killed by piercing. He was killed by crucifixion. You dont die by piercing when crucified.

6. Both resurrected.

No. Krishna was not resurrected. He was already a divine being, and he only spoke to the guy who killed him and gave him forgiveness because he shot him by mistake thinking he was game in his hunting trip. Is that like the concept of Jesus?

I dont know where this kind of information is coming from. I do remember some guy who wrote about this kind of parallels almost a hundred years ago and is widely rejected as nonsense by scholars at large. Whatever your aim is with this kind of post, please do some more research before presenting such absurd thesis's. I do understand that there are parallels in most of these things but the points you have given are seriously flawed due to lack of simple research. In this day and age, this is surprising really.

Anyway, that's that I suppose.

The most popular savior God in India is Krishna, the eighth incarnation of Vishnu. The Bhagavad-gita presents Krishna as a Creator-Redeemer God who creates a real world of souls and matter. (Shankara’s monistic interpretation of the Gita is now widely discredited.) In Chapter 11 of the Gita Krishna transfigures himself in a way very similar to Christ’s transfiguration (See Plate 3 at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/trinplates.htm.) Krishna asserts his divine priority and sovereignty by subordinating impersonal Brahman as his “womb” (14: 2, 27). (See Figure 2 for a Krishna cosmogony at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/trinfig.htm.) The Krishna Trinity is usually expressed by Vishnu as the cosmic body (vishvarupa), the incarnate Krishna, and Krishna as paramatma, a Hindu equivalent of the Holy Spirit immanent and working in all things.[17] (See Figure 3 at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/ trinfig.htm.) In Plate 4 you can see a representation of the cosmic Vishnu and the baby Krishna, who conforms to my savior archetype very nicely. (See at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/trinplates.htm and www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/307/archetype.htm.) Finally, even though Krishna has to dispatch a few demons, his childhood is filled with mirth, song, dance, and godly love making.

The most well known Hindu Trinity

 

[PruePhillip]

The unchanged common view among many Jews today, including Karaites, is that if the entire book of Isaiah is read from start to finish, in Hebrew, then it is clear that Isaiah 53 is NOT talking about one individual but instead the nation of Israel as a whole.

isaiah 53 jesus or israel - Google Search

Their text, their interpretation. I believe Christians used Isaiah 53 as a pretext to formulate their portrait of their avatar god, Jesus.

I found this just now
Isaiah 53 - The forbidden chapter - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

The 17th century Jewish historian, Raphael Levi, admitted that long ago the rabbis used to read
Isaiah 53 in synagogues, but after the chapter caused “arguments and great confusion” the rabbis
decided that the simplest thing would be to just take that prophecy out of the Haftarah readings in
synagogues. That’s why today when we read Isaiah 52, we stop in the middle of the chapter and
the week after we jump straight to Isaiah 54.

But He was pierced because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities.
The chastisement for our shalom was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed.
We all like sheep have gone astray.
Each of us turned to his own way.
So Adonai has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

if Israel is this man, then who is 'we' who have gone astray?
Where in Judaism does the nation redeem the sin of Israel?

 

[Sand Dancer]

But the devil is in the detail, as they say

Is it a literal or figurative Satan?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I don't know about everything, however the library of Alexandria burned 3 times and each time the culprit was never identified. Even without that great library, all of Christianity is theoretically rediscoverable. All of the schools and ideas are drawn from material that we can for the most part find or reproduce -- theoretically. Why do so? For several reasons: to provide a bridge between our time and theirs, to learn lessons from history, to witness what happened and why, to understand ourselves and for some of us to help us understand theology, its origin and practice.

I am told that the bishops began to compete with one another, and they began to use doctrinal arguments and claims of orthodoxy to stir up divisions they could benefit from. That probably gave politicians a lever with which to influence the churches, because in addition to funding charitably they could support bishops against other bishops. So lets say that Irenaeus is one of the first to strongly support orthodoxy. He's not the earliest. He is simple, ironclad evidence of a struggle long in progress by his time. We have other earlier examples of conflict and arguments where men and women having no faith in God's power to preserve truths sought to wrestle truths into one another.

I lament the loss of the ancient pagan scrolls the Christians destroyed. There must have been a treasure trove of ancient information in them that would have greatly enhanced our understanding of the period. The loss is inestimable.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I found this just now
Isaiah 53 - The forbidden chapter - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

The 17th century Jewish historian, Raphael Levi, admitted that long ago the rabbis used to read
Isaiah 53 in synagogues, but after the chapter caused “arguments and great confusion” the rabbis
decided that the simplest thing would be to just take that prophecy out of the Haftarah readings in
synagogues. That’s why today when we read Isaiah 52, we stop in the middle of the chapter and
the week after we jump straight to Isaiah 54.

But He was pierced because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities.
The chastisement for our shalom was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed.
We all like sheep have gone astray.
Each of us turned to his own way.
So Adonai has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

if Israel is this man, then who is 'we' who have gone astray?
Where in Judaism does the nation redeem the sin of Israel?

The "we" refers to the people of Israel themselves who repeatedly sinned and went astray and Yahweh had to whip them back into line. But the suffering servant is the nation of Israel being referred to as one entity.

 

[SomeRandom]

Is it a literal or figurative Satan?

Why not both?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Why not both?

One is a lot more scary than the other.

 

[SomeRandom]

One is a lot more scary than the other.

Eh. If you say so.

 

[Jainarayan]

Quote to me from Hindu scripture that a king wanted to kill Krishna. Quote the whole story. Or link it. Do the same for any of your claims about Krishna. If it's in their scripture, I'll pay attention. Shouldn't be that hard to find. Most of the major Hindu scriptures have been translated to English at some point and are usually on places like Internet Sacred Text Archive Home and other open source libraries (Project Gutenberg and so on).

'Tis true. It's in the Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto X. Kamsa was the maternal uncle of Krishna, brother of Krishna's mother Devaki. A prophecy foretold that the eigth child of Devaki and her husband Vasudeva would overthrow Kamsa. So Kamsa had them imprisoned, where Devaki gave birth to eight children. The first six were killed by Kamsa, the seventh, Balarama was switcherooed with Vasudeva's other wife Rohini.

At the time of Krishna's birth the jailers fell into a deep sleep, and gates of the prison were mysteriously opened. Vasudeva was able to leave and take Krishna to another relative for safe keeping. Vasudeva made it back to the dungeon as if nothing happened. When Kamsa heard that is sister delivered her eighth child he went to the prison to kill the baby. But Goddess Durga appeared and told Kamsa his doom was sealed because the Krishna was already safely hidden.

For the next several years Kamsa made many attempts on Krishna's life, all of which failed. Kamsa still thought he could kill Krishna, so when Krishna was a teenager, Kamsa challenged him to a wrestling match. That was Kamsa's death. The previous king, Ugrasena, who was Kamsa's father, was restored to the throne.

Srimad Bhagavatam: Canto 10 - Chapter 1
Srimad Bhagavatam: Canto 10 - Chapter 2
Srimad Bhagavatam: Canto 10 - Chapter 3
Srimad Bhagavatam: Canto 10 - Chapter 4

Btw, just in case anyone wants to know the sources and read up on it.

 

[Jainarayan]

So does Krishna have a human father and human mother?

Yes. They were royalty. Krishna's mother was the daughter of the previous king Ugrasena, who was overthrown by his own son Kamsa (or Kansa... a quirk of Sanskrit). Vasudeva was also of royal blood. They were quite human.

 

[Jainarayan]

Krishna followers chant "Hare Krishna". Christians pray aloud "Jesus have mercy". I can't distinguish the difference. Both are praying to their god.

Ehhh... uh, no. The Mahamantra is not a prayer. In Hindu belief the name of God is non-different from God. The name is God. Chanting a mantra in Sanskrit carries a mystical sound energy. That's why it's so important to get the pronunciation as perfect as possible. Without it, it's like a bad phone connection or a loose wire. The signal may get through, but not with the same strength. Not so for the Jesus prayer.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Ehhh... uh, no. The Mahamantra is not a prayer. In Hindu belief the name of God is non-different from God. The name is God. Chanting a mantra in Sanskrit carries a mystical sound energy. That's why it's so important to get the pronunciation as perfect as possible. Without it, it's like a bad phone connection or a loose wire. The signal may get through, but not with the same strength. Not so for the Jesus prayer.

Very interesting. Thank you.

 

[PruePhillip]

The "we" refers to the people of Israel themselves who repeatedly sinned and went astray and Yahweh had to whip them back into line. But the suffering servant is the nation of Israel being referred to as one entity.

AND the Jews die to redeem Israel? That's not in Judaism.
Half 52 and all of 53 refer to a MAN.
54 clearly is speaking generally of Israel.

Perhaps there is no reigning Messiah - that's just prophecy of
Israel conquering the world?

How do YOU see the reigning Messiah of 9 and 12 Zechariah?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

AND the Jews die to redeem Israel? That's not in Judaism.
Half 52 and all of 53 refer to a MAN.
54 clearly is speaking generally of Israel.

Perhaps there is no reigning Messiah - that's just prophecy of
Israel conquering the world?

How do YOU see the reigning Messiah of 9 and 12 Zechariah?

The correct translation of Zechariah 12:10 should be."they will look onto Me concerning whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him"


This is consistent with the two subjects. By reviewing the context we can also understand of whom this passage is speaking. Starting with the beginning of Zechariah chapter 12 the prophet speaks of a time when the nations of the world will be gathered against Jerusalem to destroy it (Zec 12:3). On that day, G-d Himself will defend Jerusalem and destroy all of its enemies (Zec 12:4-9). G-d will pour out a spirit of grace and supplication toward the Jews. Grace is requested from G-d and supplication are directed to G-d.


This new spirit will motivate the Jewish nation to look towards G-d concerning those Jews (collective Jewish Martyrs) (see Hosea 11:1 for the Jewish people described as him. See Ex.1 etc. verbs of oppression in singular. Cf. Deut 32, Hos 8:3 and Ex. 19:2) who have been killed in battle prior to G-d's divine intervention in fighting our adversaries.

Analysis of Zechariah 12:10

 

[PruePhillip]

The correct translation of Zechariah 12:10 should be."they will look onto Me concerning whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him"


This is consistent with the two subjects. By reviewing the context we can also understand of whom this passage is speaking. Starting with the beginning of Zechariah chapter 12 the prophet speaks of a time when the nations of the world will be gathered against Jerusalem to destroy it (Zec 12:3). On that day, G-d Himself will defend Jerusalem and destroy all of its enemies (Zec 12:4-9). G-d will pour out a spirit of grace and supplication toward the Jews. Grace is requested from G-d and supplication are directed to G-d.


This new spirit will motivate the Jewish nation to look towards G-d concerning those Jews (collective Jewish Martyrs) (see Hosea 11:1 for the Jewish people described as him. See Ex.1 etc. verbs of oppression in singular. Cf. Deut 32, Hos 8:3 and Ex. 19:2) who have been killed in battle prior to G-d's divine intervention in fighting our adversaries.

Analysis of Zechariah 12:10

So WHO is the lowly man who was pierced, and why should Israel mourn when they recognize him?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

So WHO is the lowly man who was pierced, and why should Israel mourn when they recognize him?

I missed something. Where is "lowly" mentioned?

 

[PruePhillip]

I missed something. Where is "lowly" mentioned?

LOWLY

Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem!
Lo, your king comes to you;
triumphant and victorious is he,
humble and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

PIERCED

And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of
grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when
they look on me, on him whom they have
pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one
mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly
over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.