Jesus and Money

[Hexavibrongal]

My question is: how do Christians manage to (apparently) ignore what Jesus said about money: "sell all your possessions and give your money to the poor", "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God", "Do not accumulate treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt", "...you cannot serve God and money." I've heard that money was one of the things he mentioned most frequently.

I certainly understand that it's not so simple to just give away everything. But too many Christians I meet seem to have given up and are slowly accumulating more money and possessions thinking that it's okay as long as it's not "out of control". And consider that I live in America where even the very poor with adjustments for cost of living still have more money than 60%-70% of the rest of the world, and many people I've met in church must be in the top 1% of the world as far as income!

Personally, I've found that if you work on the money issue through prayer and meditation, you'll gradually be able to peel away your money and possessions without missing them. I'm a long way from being where I want to be with money, but I have cut my spending substantially by cooking simple healthy food at home, avoiding buying gadgets or things I don't need, selling quite a bit of my stuff that I don't need each time I move, buying clothes almost exclusively from thrift stores, learning to cut my own hair, etc. It took me a long time to be comfortable with this, but now I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Plato]

Well Hexa...That's been a problem for Christianity ever since it became an 'official religion' supported by the rich and governments. It's come up all through Christian history...some (Saints like St. Francis, the Amish) taking it literally the vast majority ignoring it. The bishops in the Middle Ages fought endlessly about it. I've seen the topic on here before long ago, and there are major Christian denominations who have figured out Biblical ways (they say) to get around it and to allow Christians to make money, business and money making the center of their lives and even say Christianity encourages Christians to be rich above all. Personally I've never seen how they can justify it, but maybe some will answer.

 

[no-body]

A lot of Christians seem to feel that if you volunteer in a shelter or donate to your church once in a while it's perfectly OK to vote for legislation and officials that favor the better off and **** on the poor because hey, they are doing as Jesus commanded and helping the poor but they wouldn't actually want to do anything to sacrifice their own lives except maybe ladle soup once in a while.

And of course Jesus was only talking to that particular man, they and the other rich are exempted because John 3:16 is all that really matters.

 

[outhouse]

My question is: how do Christians manage to (apparently) ignore what Jesus said about money: "sell all your possessions and give your money to the poor", "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God", "Do not accumulate treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt", "...you cannot serve God and money." I've heard that money was one of the things he mentioned most frequently.

I certainly understand that it's not so simple to just give away everything. But too many Christians I meet seem to have given up and are slowly accumulating more money and possessions thinking that it's okay as long as it's not "out of control". And consider that I live in America where even the very poor with adjustments for cost of living still have more money than 60%-70% of the rest of the world, and many people I've met in church must be in the top 1% of the world as far as income!

Personally, I've found that if you work on the money issue through prayer and meditation, you'll gradually be able to peel away your money and possessions without missing them. I'm a long way from being where I want to be with money, but I have cut my spending substantially by cooking simple healthy food at home, avoiding buying gadgets or things I don't need, selling quite a bit of my stuff that I don't need each time I move, buying clothes almost exclusively from thrift stores, learning to cut my own hair, etc. It took me a long time to be comfortable with this, but now I wouldn't have it any other way.

Its my feeling this particular theology comes down to impending doom. jesus thought everything was coming to a end and it all would soon be over. he was setting everyone up for the new kingdom that just never happened.

 

[Nakosis]

My question is: how do Christians manage to (apparently) ignore what Jesus said about money: "sell all your possessions and give your money to the poor", "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God", "Do not accumulate treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt", "...you cannot serve God and money." I've heard that money was one of the things he mentioned most frequently.

I think this was mainly for those that would directly become his disciples. I suspect he was trying to let people know the difficulty of this path as far as giving up everything to follow him.

Besides someone has to accumulate wealth, work to support themselves and the economy. If everyone gives up everything, then everyone goes hungry.

I think it is important though not to get attached to wealth. A person can make money and do a lot of good with it. Or they can be greedy and gain through the suffering of others. You can't look at a wealthy person and say they are bad or greedy because they have a lot of money. Maybe they just know how and have the opportunity to make money.

I know some doctors who make a lot of money. However they donate a month a year to go overseas at their own expense and provide free medical care to third world countries. They couldn't possible do that without the wealth they had.

Wealth alone is not an indicator of an individual's character. Their actions and what they do with that wealth is.

The world would not last long if everyone gave up their possessions.

 

[4consideration]

My question is: how do Christians manage to (apparently) ignore what Jesus said about money: "sell all your possessions and give your money to the poor", "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God", "Do not accumulate treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt", "...you cannot serve God and money." I've heard that money was one of the things he mentioned most frequently.

Here's my take on it:

1. Jesus's instruction about selling possessions and giving money to the poor was directed to his disciples, who were to be traveling with him. The instruction was on knowing firsthand that the source of our security and well-being is God, and does not reside in material possessions. It is not a commentary that having possessions is inherently "bad."

2. Since many people associate well-being with possessions, it is easy for one to loose sight that money has it's limits and we can't take it with us.

3. Again, money has it's limits. There are much more valuable things to accummulate in life -- like Love.

4. You cannot serve both Money and Love. However, money can be used in the service of Love. You are in a better position to help the poor if you have something to give than if you are only in a position to take. Money and Love are not mutually exclusive. But, of the two -- you can only choose one as the master you will serve -- the other becomes the servant. Choose wisely.

I certainly understand that it's not so simple to just give away everything. But too many Christians I meet seem to have given up and are slowly accumulating more money and possessions thinking that it's okay as long as it's not "out of control". And consider that I live in America where even the very poor with adjustments for cost of living still have more money than 60%-70% of the rest of the world, and many people I've met in church must be in the top 1% of the world as far as income!

I think many of us are re-evaluating our relationship with money and things. But, I don't really think that it is our job to sit in judgement of each other and assume that we know what is in another person's heart. I think that the pursuit of poverty with the idea that it makes us better than another person can be the same spiritual mistake as pursuing money for the same reason.


Personally, I've found that if you work on the money issue through prayer and meditation, you'll gradually be able to peel away your money and possessions without missing them. I'm a long way from being where I want to be with money, but I have cut my spending substantially by cooking simple healthy food at home, avoiding buying gadgets or things I don't need, selling quite a bit of my stuff that I don't need each time I move, buying clothes almost exclusively from thrift stores, learning to cut my own hair, etc. It took me a long time to be comfortable with this, but now I wouldn't have it any other way.

I, too have experienced extreme economic readjustment over the past few years -- and there is some relief in seeing that alot of what we may have thought we need, we really don't need -- just need to disengage our ego from. Simplifying has many great benefits.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

Well Hexa...That's been a problem for Christianity ever since it became an 'official religion' supported by the rich and governments. It's come up all through Christian history...some (Saints like St. Francis, the Amish) taking it literally the vast majority ignoring it. The bishops in the Middle Ages fought endlessly about it. I've seen the topic on here before long ago, and there are major Christian denominations who have figured out Biblical ways (they say) to get around it and to allow Christians to make money, business and money making the center of their lives and even say Christianity encourages Christians to be rich above all. Personally I've never seen how they can justify it, but maybe some will answer.

Whoa, that's really interesting, it never occurred to me that there might be a history like you're talking about related to this topic. Could you give me some direction for researching more about what you mention here?

 

[fallingblood]

Its my feeling this particular theology comes down to impending doom. jesus thought everything was coming to a end and it all would soon be over. he was setting everyone up for the new kingdom that just never happened.

I haven't really agreed with outhouse for quite some time, but in this case, I would say this is probably the big factor.


In addition to this though, he was teaching something that was familiar anyway. There was the teaching that the love of money was the root of all evil. Jesus is basically expanding on this.

 

[Me Myself]

Besides someone has to accumulate wealth, work to support themselves and the economy. If everyone gives up everything, then everyone goes hungry

The world would not last long if everyone gave up their possessions.

"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these."

I am sure Jesus expected more faith than those remarks.

The reality is that you don´t have to "leave it all". But you indeed can have just the necesary and give the rest to people who truly have less than what they need.

I applaud the OPs attempts, and may he achive his goals.

 

[idav]

My question is: how do Christians manage to (apparently) ignore what Jesus said about money: "sell all your possessions and give your money to the poor", "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God", "Do not accumulate treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupt", "...you cannot serve God and money." I've heard that money was one of the things he mentioned most frequently.

Once Jesus was gone the apostles quickly turned it into give all your money to the church so they can take care of it for you. Most christian churches have since followed that same ideal.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Brother Ray said it better than me.

Woke up this mornin' turned on my TV set
There in livin' color was somethin' I can't forget
This man was preachin' at me.. yeah.. layin' on the charm
Asking me for 20 with 10,000 on his arm

He wore designer clothing and a big smile on his face
Selling me salvation while they sang Amazing Grace
Asking me for money when he had all the signs of weath
Almost wrote a check out.. yeah.. but then I asked myself…

Would He wear a pinky ring, would He drive a fancy car
Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressing room have a star
If he came back tomorrow there's something I'd like to know
Would Jesus wear a rolex on His television show

Would Jesus be political if he came back to earth
Have his second home in Palm Springs.. yeah.. but try to hide his worth
Take money from those poor folks when He comes back again
And admit He's talked to all those preachers who said they'd been-a talking to Him

Would He wear a pinky ring, would He drive a fancy car
Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressing room have a star
If he came back tomorrow there's something I'd like to know
Could ya tell me - Would Jesus wear a rolex
Would Jesus wear a rolex
Would Jesus wear a rolex on His television show
Would Jesus wear a rolex on His television show

Would Jesus Wear a Rolex on his Television Show
by Ray Stevens

 

[Thief]

Its my feeling this particular theology comes down to impending doom. jesus thought everything was coming to a end and it all would soon be over. he was setting everyone up for the new kingdom that just never happened.

Well there it is....after all this time....

No wonder you're off on a tangent as you are!

The kingdom is not of this world....the Carpenter said so.
Is everything coming to an end?....of course it is.
Is it pending?...yeah....your last breath.

As for the money issue.....and topic....
People focus on what they desire.
It's rather easy to chase what you need.
Can be difficult to catch up with it.

That constant quest of acquisition gets in the way of meditation about life after death.
Even when the wealth begins to roll your way...the pursuit continues.

So...rich men don't go to the kingdom.......why?
No focus.

 

[Nakosis]

"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these."

I am sure Jesus expected more faith than those remarks.

The reality is that you don´t have to "leave it all". But you indeed can have just the necesary and give the rest to people who truly have less than what they need.

I applaud the OPs attempts, and may he achive his goals.

Yes Solomon was very wealthy, very wise and portrayed as a role model. According to the Bible, God was please with Solomon.

Better to make money and use it to help others then become one of the needy yourself don't you think. Being wealthy is not a crime nor a sin nor does it show a lack of faith.

It kind of a false piety really. A person has been given a chance to make money, help people, do a lot of good in the world versus doing the minimal necessary because they don't want to be seen as greedy.

The wealthy provide jobs. They cover 50% of the tax burden so we can have programs to help the poor. We really need more wealthy people so more can be helped.

If an individual wants to take that path, that's great but they aren't really helping anyone but themselves.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Jesus, like most religious founders, understood that desire for money and greed was antithetical to spirituality. In order to progress spiritually, one has to give up attachments to wealth. This doesn't necessarily imply giving up everything and doing with the bare minimum, but it's more about intent and attitude toward wealth and money. With this being said, most Christians in the west believe that it's their god-given right to hoard wealth, be greedy, and focus mostly, if not solely, on money. I've actually heard televangelists say that Jesus was rich, so why shouldn't they be as well? Love of money goes against the spiritual. Jesus understood this. He realized that greed was something that could, and does, keep a person locked in the material realm. Most Christians today, from what I've seen, fail to understand this concept.

 

[outhouse]

Well there it is....after all this time....

No wonder you're off on a tangent as you are!

The kingdom is not of this world....the Carpenter said so.
Is everything coming to an end?....of course it is.
Is it pending?...yeah....your last breath.

As for the money issue.....and topic....
People focus on what they desire.
It's rather easy to chase what you need.
Can be difficult to catch up with it.

That constant quest of acquisition gets in the way of meditation about life after death.
Even when the wealth begins to roll your way...the pursuit continues.

So...rich men don't go to the kingdom.......why?
No focus.

LOL there is much debate even know as to what and how to define kingdom.

many schools of thought on this. You certainly dont have the definitive answer and I dont claim to

 

[Thief]

LOL there is much debate even know as to what and how to define kingdom.

many schools of thought on this. You certainly dont have the definitive answer and I dont claim to

(Perhaps I do).

For now, let's say I don't.
Who then to ask?

 

[outhouse]

(Perhaps I do).

For now, let's say I don't.
Who then to ask?

Kingdom of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

C. H. Dodd and John Dominic Crossan argued that the “Kingdom” was fully manifest in the present teaching and actions of Jesus. Through his words and deeds the "Kingdom" was brought into the present reality of Palestine. Dodd coined the term "realized eschatology"[27] and largely based his argument on Luke 11:20, and Luke 17:21, claiming that "the kingdom of God has come to you" and “the kingdom of God is within you”. Crossan imagined Jesus as a cynic-like peasant who focused on the sapiential aspects of the "Kingdom" and not on any apocalyptic conceptions.[28]
Albert Schweitzer, Rudolf Bultmann, Norman Perrin and Johannes Weiss argued that Jesus’ "Kingdom" was intended to be a wholly futuristic kingdom. These scholars looked to the apocalyptic traditions of various Jewish groups existing at the time of Jesus as the basis of their study.[29][30][31][32] In this view, Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher who would bring about the end times and when he did not see the end of the cosmic order coming Jesus embraced death as a tool in which to provoke God into action.
The most common view of the "Kingdom" in recent scholarship is to embrace the truths of both these parties─present reality and future manifestation, known as Inaugurated eschatology. Some scholars who take this view are N.T. Wright and G.R. Beasley-Murray. In their views, the “Kingdom” that Jesus spoke of will be fully realized in the future but it is also in a process of “in-breaking” into the present. This means that Jesus’ deeds and words have an immediate effect on the “Kingdom” even though it was not fully manifested during his life. Even greater attention has been paid to the concept of the “Kingdom of God” by scholars during the current third quest for the historical Jesus (with which N.T. Wright is associated).
Another important recent observation on the meaning of the “Kingdom” was made by Rudolph Otto who took a feminist approach to the study of Jesus. He claimed that “it is not Jesus who brings the kingdom; on the contrary; the kingdom brings him with it…”[33] This approach attempts to take Jesus out of the Jesus movement that followed after his death and resurrection; by doing this the communal aspects of the “Kingdom” become emphasized and not just the focus on Jesus as a man.

 

[Thief]

Kingdom of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

C. H. Dodd and John Dominic Crossan argued that the “Kingdom” was fully manifest in the present teaching and actions of Jesus. Through his words and deeds the "Kingdom" was brought into the present reality of Palestine. Dodd coined the term "realized eschatology"[27] and largely based his argument on Luke 11:20, and Luke 17:21, claiming that "the kingdom of God has come to you" and “the kingdom of God is within you”. Crossan imagined Jesus as a cynic-like peasant who focused on the sapiential aspects of the "Kingdom" and not on any apocalyptic conceptions.[28]
Albert Schweitzer, Rudolf Bultmann, Norman Perrin and Johannes Weiss argued that Jesus’ "Kingdom" was intended to be a wholly futuristic kingdom. These scholars looked to the apocalyptic traditions of various Jewish groups existing at the time of Jesus as the basis of their study.[29][30][31][32] In this view, Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher who would bring about the end times and when he did not see the end of the cosmic order coming Jesus embraced death as a tool in which to provoke God into action.
The most common view of the "Kingdom" in recent scholarship is to embrace the truths of both these parties─present reality and future manifestation, known as Inaugurated eschatology. Some scholars who take this view are N.T. Wright and G.R. Beasley-Murray. In their views, the “Kingdom” that Jesus spoke of will be fully realized in the future but it is also in a process of “in-breaking” into the present. This means that Jesus’ deeds and words have an immediate effect on the “Kingdom” even though it was not fully manifested during his life. Even greater attention has been paid to the concept of the “Kingdom of God” by scholars during the current third quest for the historical Jesus (with which N.T. Wright is associated).
Another important recent observation on the meaning of the “Kingdom” was made by Rudolph Otto who took a feminist approach to the study of Jesus. He claimed that “it is not Jesus who brings the kingdom; on the contrary; the kingdom brings him with it…”[33] This approach attempts to take Jesus out of the Jesus movement that followed after his death and resurrection; by doing this the communal aspects of the “Kingdom” become emphasized and not just the focus on Jesus as a man.

That was quick.

The last sentence makes more sense than the rest of it.
As a spiritual place, communication would be of mind and heart.
Not of this world.

Money would then have no value.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

I think this was mainly for those that would directly become his disciples. I suspect he was trying to let people know the difficulty of this path as far as giving up everything to follow him.

Can you tell me more about why you think that? The way Jesus words it all, it sure sound like it applies to everyone, and he preaches against money to a crowd. He's also usually pretty specific about who his teachings apply to (as you'd expect him to be). Is there something in the text that makes you think it only applies to the disciples? ...or is it just because you see the concept as generally impractical and so therefore think there must be some other interpretation? Are there other teachings of Jesus that you think don't apply to everyone?

To me, many of Jesus's teachings seem impossible, like never telling a lie and not thinking about other people lustfully, but I don't think that means that we just write off those teachings. I personally believe we have to tirelessly strive to get as close to what he said to do as possible.

 

[Shermana]

If you read the "Gospel to the Hebrews" which is considered to be closer to the original "Proto-Matthew", there's a little more to the story that the later writers may have left out:

The Gospel of the Hebrews

The second of the rich men (it saith) said unto him: Master, what good thing can I do and live? He said unto him: O man, fulfil (do) the law and the prophets.
He answered him: I have kept them. He said unto him: Go, sell al that thou ownest, and distribute it unto the poor, and come, follow me. But the rich man began to scratch his head, and it pleased him not. And the Lord said unto him: How sayest though: I have kept the law and the prophets? For it is written in the law: Though shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, and lo, many of thy brethren, sons of Abraham, are clad in filth, dying for hunger, and thine house is full of many good things, and nought at all goeth out of it unto them.
And he turned and said unto Simon his disciple who was sitting by him: Simon, son of Joanna, it is easier for a camel to enter in by a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jews are commanded in the Law to take care of the poor and needy among them, this rich man was not fulfilling that Law.