Jesus and Money

[riley2112]

The biblical perspective is for us to live in wholeness, which includes a generous sufficiency of things. Poverty is a bad thing; God wants us to have all we need for a joyous life. God wants no one to be poor.” Proverbs 13:11

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."
Proverbs 6:6–8

"Go to the ant, O sluggard, observe her ways and be wise, which, having no chief, officer or ruler, prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest."
There are many more. Again, God does not want you poor.
​

 

[Nakosis]

Can you tell me more about why you think that? The way Jesus words it all, it sure sound like it applies to everyone, and he preaches against money to a crowd. He's also usually pretty specific about who his teachings apply to (as you'd expect him to be). Is there something in the text that makes you think it only applies to the disciples? ...or is it just because you see the concept as generally impractical and so therefore think there must be some other interpretation? Are there other teachings of Jesus that you think don't apply to everyone?

To me, many of Jesus's teachings seem impossible, like never telling a lie and not thinking about other people lustfully, but I don't think that means that we just write off those teachings. I personally believe we have to tirelessly strive to get as close to what he said to do as possible.

Don't get me wrong. I mean no disrespect, however there is no compromise...

Matt 8
The Cost of Following Jesus

18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”


Matt 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.


Luke 14:26

If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

There's no pretense, he is not asking to sacrifice a little. To give up what you can afford. He is asking for everything. Walk out of your house right now, leave it all behind you and preach the "Good News". Are you ready for that? You don't even have a teacher to follow. Not like they did.

Most of his disciples were put in jail and eventually killed. There's no glory, no one will admire you, most will mock you. Turn away from your family, friends and earthly responsibilities? I'm not ready for that. Not in this life and I'm not going to pretend I am out of some sense of religious piety. And neither are you. Else you wouldn't be here on this forum just talking about it.

If you can do that you have more faith then I, but really think what is being asked of you. If there is any doubt, any thought that you may regret such a decision, don't start down that path. And, don't say later you weren't warned.

 

[waitasec]

Its my feeling this particular theology comes down to impending doom. jesus thought everything was coming to a end and it all would soon be over. he was setting everyone up for the new kingdom that just never happened.

i'm hooked on that feeling too :yes:
as i consider this: 'don't worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will take care of itself'

i also think paul thought this too...

especially when he tells married couples to refrain from sex :thud:


edit:
oh and then there is the biggest blunder of all
"why has thou forsaken me?"

 

[no-body]

If you read the "Gospel to the Hebrews" which is considered to be closer to the original "Proto-Matthew", there's a little more to the story that the later writers may have left out:

The Gospel of the HebrewsThe second of the rich men (it saith) said unto him: Master, what good thing can I do and live? He said unto him: O man, fulfil (do) the law and the prophets.
He answered him: I have kept them. He said unto him: Go, sell al that thou ownest, and distribute it unto the poor, and come, follow me. But the rich man began to scratch his head, and it pleased him not. And the Lord said unto him: How sayest though: I have kept the law and the prophets? For it is written in the law: Though shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, and lo, many of thy brethren, sons of Abraham, are clad in filth, dying for hunger, and thine house is full of many good things, and nought at all goeth out of it unto them.
And he turned and said unto Simon his disciple who was sitting by him: Simon, son of Joanna, it is easier for a camel to enter in by a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.




Jews are commanded in the Law to take care of the poor and needy among them, this rich man was not fulfilling that Law.

Then why does Jesus say it is easier for a camel to enter in to the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? That is strange wording if he is only talking about that particular rich man.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

The biblical perspective is for us to live in wholeness, which includes a generous sufficiency of things. Poverty is a bad thing; God wants us to have all we need for a joyous life. God wants no one to be poor.” Proverbs 13:11

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."
Proverbs 6:6–8

"Go to the ant, O sluggard, observe her ways and be wise, which, having no chief, officer or ruler, prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest."
There are many more. Again, God does not want you poor.
​

That sounds like Word of Faith or Name It/Claim It theology. How do you explain the disciples? They lived in poverty. Or Paul when he said "if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that?" You're saying that Christians shouldn't be poor, I've heard ome say that poverty is a gift of the Spirit.

 

[Nakosis]

Then why does Jesus say it is easier for a camel to enter in to the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? That is strange wording if he is only talking about that particular rich man.

I doubt intentionally being poor will get you there either. However the poor have less to give up. It is much easier to sacrifice everything when you have little. That doesn't mean the poor man is any less greedy in their heart. They can as stubbornly hold onto what little they have as much as the rich man holds onto his wealth. You can't judge a person's character by their pocketbook. The poor can be as enslaved to materialism as much as the rich.

 

[ChristineES]

The OP is a classic example of taking verses out of context. Jesus was talking to one person when He said that: A rich young man. He told others to "go home and tell your family about Me". And He told other people other things.

 

[outhouse]

The OP is a classic example of taking verses out of context. Jesus was talking to one person when He said that: A rich young man. He told others to "go home and tell your family about Me". And He told other people other things.

I agree


The book preaches many different valuable lessons, that was just one in that context.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

Most of his disciples were put in jail and eventually killed. There's no glory, no one will admire you, most will mock you. Turn away from your family, friends and earthly responsibilities? I'm not ready for that. Not in this life and I'm not going to pretend I am out of some sense of religious piety. And neither are you. Else you wouldn't be here on this forum just talking about it.

Not much faith huh? I have thought about the endgame a lot - surely anyone who seriously starts down the path has. There's plenty of evidence of people throughout history reaching extremely high levels of spiritual advancement without becoming martyrs, so I don't necessarily believe that it all ends in persecution and execution, but I think it does likely mean some kind of poverty and that fewer people will understand your life at that point. But as I said, sacrificing luxuries that I used to indulge and the relative isolation that I've endured due to my spiritual development haven't felt like much sacrifice considering the peace that I've gained. It's a process through which it gradually becomes easier and easier to live how Jesus said.

I don't necessarily believe that everyone should drop everything right now and live in complete poverty. I just believe that we should live with as little as we possibly can, at least until everyone in the world has food, healthcare, education, and pretty much the same opportunities in life. I have considered that if this trend continues in my life, then later I may live with very, very little, and I'm okay with that. So far, the payoff has always been totally worth the sacrifice.

 

[Nakosis]

Not much faith huh? I have thought about the endgame a lot - surely anyone who seriously starts down the path has. There's plenty of evidence of people throughout history reaching extremely high levels of spiritual advancement without becoming martyrs, so I don't necessarily believe that it all ends in persecution and execution, but I think it does likely mean some kind of poverty and that fewer people will understand your life at that point. But as I said, sacrificing luxuries that I used to indulge and the relative isolation that I've endured due to my spiritual development haven't felt like much sacrifice considering the peace that I've gained. It's a process through which it gradually becomes easier and easier to live how Jesus said.

I don't necessarily believe that everyone should drop everything right now and live in complete poverty. I just believe that we should live with as little as we possibly can, at least until everyone in the world has food, healthcare, education, and pretty much the same opportunities in life. I have considered that if this trend continues in my life, then later I may live with very, very little, and I'm okay with that. So far, the payoff has always been totally worth the sacrifice.

If that works for you, then more power to you. I just don't think that's right for "we". I don't think there should be any expectation of what is right for everyone. I don't think any individual knows enough to make that determination for anyone else. While I don't think any should look down of you for making such a choice I'd suggest not looking down on anyone for choosing a different path. Go forth and do what you think is right for you, just don't expect it to be accepted as right for everyone.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes Solomon was very wealthy, very wise and portrayed as a role model. According to the Bible, God was please with Solomon.

Better to make money and use it to help others then become one of the needy yourself don't you think. Being wealthy is not a crime nor a sin nor does it show a lack of faith.

It kind of a false piety really. A person has been given a chance to make money, help people, do a lot of good in the world versus doing the minimal necessary because they don't want to be seen as greedy.

The wealthy provide jobs. They cover 50% of the tax burden so we can have programs to help the poor. We really need more wealthy people so more can be helped.

If an individual wants to take that path, that's great but they aren't really helping anyone but themselves.

That was before God´s laws were universalistic. Remember OT God was God of the jews and nothing more (he even asked for genocides of other peoples).

So if the Jews were okay it was okay to be that wealthy, being a king.

Now Jesus came with a new message, you must remember that. Now that not only the jews are important, how can one have useless stuff that only serve to entertain us while other poeple are starving dead?

I am not saying I am not guilty, but it is basic to see Jesus spoke against that.

About wealthy providing jobs, that would be one of the good uses of the money, but you still have a lot of uses that don´t produce jobs but are only made because they want x thing for THEMSELVES even when the money could be used to help someone who wants something that he NEEDS not wants.

So spending money in unnecessary stuff that only helps ourselves doesn´t sound like what Christ wanted us to do. It´s pretty basic.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't necessarily believe that everyone should drop everything right now and live in complete poverty. I just believe that we should live with as little as we possibly can, at least until everyone in the world has food, healthcare, education, and pretty much the same opportunities in life. I have considered that if this trend continues in my life, then later I may live with very, very little, and I'm okay with that. So far, the payoff has always been totally worth the sacrifice.

It indeed souns like the most christian thing to do.

May Christ help you on your path.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

The OP is a classic example of taking verses out of context. Jesus was talking to one person when He said that: A rich young man. He told others to "go home and tell your family about Me". And He told other people other things.

He also preached against wealth to crowds. But why would a teaching apply to only one man and not everybody? And right after he told the man to sell his possessions, he said the camel/needle line to his disciples worded in such a way that it clearly sounds like it applies to everyone. If Jesus is who he says he is, then do you think he would be sloppy with his words? I think that if that teaching was unique in that it only applied to that man, he would say so. As I mentioned before, Jesus is usually very specific about who his teachings apply to.

 

[ChristineES]

He also preached against wealth to crowds. But why would a teaching apply to only one man and not everybody? And right after he told the man to sell his possessions, he said the camel/needle line to his disciples worded in such a way that it clearly sounds like it applies to everyone. If Jesus is who he says he is, then do you think he would be sloppy with his words? I think that if that teaching was unique in that it only applied to that man, he would say so. As I mentioned before, Jesus is usually very specific about who his teachings apply to.

We have to take into account that Jesus didn't write the Gospels- His followers and their followers later did that. In other words, we don't know if Jesus actually said this to anyone else, so in actuality, we wouldn't know if he'd meant just that one man (who obviously worshiped his wealth) or for all of us. I can only assume what he meant.

 

[ChristineES]

An addition to my last post: It is obvious that Jesus didn't want people to worship wealth, if you go by His various teachings written in the Bible. Maybe that young man needed to sell all his worldly goods because he worshiped his wealth. But as I said before, we have no way of really knowing.

 

[Nakosis]

That was before God´s laws were universalistic. Remember OT God was God of the jews and nothing more (he even asked for genocides of other peoples).

So if the Jews were okay it was okay to be that wealthy, being a king.

Now Jesus came with a new message, you must remember that. Now that not only the jews are important, how can one have useless stuff that only serve to entertain us while other poeple are starving dead?

I am not saying I am not guilty, but it is basic to see Jesus spoke against that.

About wealthy providing jobs, that would be one of the good uses of the money, but you still have a lot of uses that don´t produce jobs but are only made because they want x thing for THEMSELVES even when the money could be used to help someone who wants something that he NEEDS not wants.

So spending money in unnecessary stuff that only helps ourselves doesn´t sound like what Christ wanted us to do. It´s pretty basic.

Greed is greed, no argument there. Foolish spending is anything but wise. However I think someone can be a good person and prosper.

But you know without people like Bill Gates you probably wouldn't have the forums to post your opinions on. I don't think Bill Gates was driven by money. I suspect he was driven by what he envisioned computers capable of. He just happen to become one of the wealthiest men in the world while pursuing the goals he believed in.

 

[ChristineES]

Greed is greed, no argument there. Foolish spending is anything but wise. However I think someone can be a good person and prosper.

But you know without people like Bill Gates you probably wouldn't have the forums to post your opinions on. I don't think Bill Gates was driven by money. I suspect he was driven by what he envisioned computers capable of. He just happen to become one of the wealthiest men in the world while pursuing the goals he believed in.

I can assume that having wealth isn't necessarily a bad thing- I think it all depends on each person. As a Christian, I believe that we are not supposed to put anything ahead of God- including money.

 

[no-body]

An addition to my last post: It is obvious that Jesus didn't want people to worship wealth, if you go by His various teachings written in the Bible. Maybe that young man needed to sell all his worldly goods because he worshiped his wealth. But as I said before, we have no way of really knowing.

So when he turned to his disciples after the rich man went away sad and said “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

he was being ambiguous and vague? Yeah, I guess we have no way of knowing what Jesus thought on the subject

 

[Me Myself]

Greed is greed, no argument there. Foolish spending is anything but wise. However I think someone can be a good person and prosper.

But you know without people like Bill Gates you probably wouldn't have the forums to post your opinions on. I don't think Bill Gates was driven by money. I suspect he was driven by what he envisioned computers capable of. He just happen to become one of the wealthiest men in the world while pursuing the goals he believed in.

I am not saying money is bad. I am saying that having 8 cars while some people don´t have what to eat doesn´t make ANY christian sense.

And I would be surprised if you told me that most prosperous weatlhy people only use the money to have what they NEED and then to do things so others have what they NEED.

Reality is that most people with money use it for a LOT of luxury that they don´t really need, and could have been much better spent.

And Bill Gates ha senough money to solve problems of whole countries if he gave a **** .

 

[ChristineES]

So when he turned to his disciples after the rich man went away sad and said “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

he was being ambiguous and vague? Yeah, I guess we have no way of knowing what Jesus thought on the subject

He didn't say it was impossible- just hard, very hard. And most of us aren't rich, we live from paycheck to paycheck and can barely put anything away for later. It becomes to easy to "worship" wealth when you have much of it. I never said Jesus was being "vague" and "ambiguous", either. I don't think you really understood what I meant.