Jesus and Money

[Me Myself]

He didn't say it was impossible- just hard, very hard. And most of us aren't rich, we live from paycheck to paycheck and can barely put anything away for later. It becomes to easy to "worship" wealth when you have much of it. I never said Jesus was being "vague" and "ambiguous", either. I don't think you really understood what I meant.

Somewhere I heard that "the eye of a needle" actually means a special kind of tent, in which the camels do can pass but they have to kneel down. Never confirmed it though, just heard it around.

 

[Nakosis]

I can assume that having wealth isn't necessarily a bad thing- I think it all depends on each person. As a Christian, I believe that we are not supposed to put anything ahead of God- including money.

Yeah, I can't imagine putting money ahead of anything does anybody any good.

If a person happens to be good at making money by doing what they enjoy. Let them make it. As long as they treat everyone fairly and with respect.

Assuming it is possible to make lots of money while treating everyone fairly and with respect.

 

[riley2112]

That sounds like Word of Faith or Name It/Claim It theology. How do you explain the disciples? They lived in poverty. Or Paul when he said "if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that?" You're saying that Christians shouldn't be poor, I've heard ome say that poverty is a gift of the Spirit.

Why would I need to explain the disciples? However the disciples were doing what was asked of them from the God they worshipped. So how do we do this? Cherry pick the book or take it as a whole. Before we play the game let us set the rules.
Name it Claim it? lol. Not my meaning at all. However I could use a new car. The key word here is USE, not NEED. There is a difference. Don't you agree?

 

[Me Myself]

The biblical perspective is for us to live in wholeness, which includes a generous sufficiency of things. Poverty is a bad thing; God wants us to have all we need for a joyous life. God wants no one to be poor.” Proverbs 13:11

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."
Proverbs 6:6–8

"Go to the ant, O sluggard, observe her ways and be wise, which, having no chief, officer or ruler, prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest."
There are many more. Again, God does not want you poor.
​

You are a jew, not a christian then?

Because Jesus had a clearly different perspective about the issue.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

We have to take into account that Jesus didn't write the Gospels- His followers and their followers later did that. In other words, we don't know if Jesus actually said this to anyone else, so in actuality, we wouldn't know if he'd meant just that one man (who obviously worshiped his wealth) or for all of us. I can only assume what he meant.

I'm aware of how the gospels were constructed, but if they included the exchange at all, even if said to only one person, I still consider it very important. The people who knew him thought this was important enough to pass along to the eventual authors.

If the rich man only needed to give up his attachment to money, then why didn't Jesus just tell him that? And if it only applied only to that man, then when the disciples assumed that it did apply to anyone and in response asked "Then who can get into heaven?", why didn't Jesus simply answer that it only applied to that one man? Or that it only applies to rich men who also 'worship' money?

And again, how do you explain what he said to his disciples about the camel and needle, which is worded in a way that clearly sounds like it applies to any rich man?

 

[riley2112]

You are a jew, not a christian then?

Because Jesus had a clearly different perspective about the issue.

I don't think I am a Jew. I believe I am a Christian. But that is why people don't believe Christians , Even Christians can not agree on what the Bible means. Could I please see some evidence that Jesus wants me to be poor.

 

[no-body]

He didn't say it was impossible- just hard, very hard. And most of us aren't rich, we live from paycheck to paycheck and can barely put anything away for later. It becomes to easy to "worship" wealth when you have much of it. I never said Jesus was being "vague" and "ambiguous", either. I don't think you really understood what I meant.

Fair enough but you said it was difficult to find a passage where Jesus gave his thoughts on the matter, I'd say "through the eye of needle" one is pretty clear.

Jesus also talked about being poor in spirit and storing your treasures up in heaven, not earth.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't think I am a Jew. I believe I am a Christian. But that is why people don't believe Christians , Even Christians can not agree on what the Bible means. Could I please see some evidence that Jesus wants me to be poor.

"blessed are the poor" ?

I am not saying poor, I am saying to have enough to eat for you and your family, to be well educated, etc. But when we are talking spending money in things that we really don´t need (like a colection of expensive cars) I would be surprised to see Jesus think that it is great that you have so many BMWs while there are people who don´t even have enough to eat.

I was just asking cause you cited onlt OT, but none of the 4 testaments where Jesus actually spoke. Going by the OT alone, it is nose for nose, but Jesus clearly spoke about that. In the same way, Jesus clearly spoke about giving as much as one can.

So I only asked because you prefered the notions of the OT instead of the 4 testaments that go against it IMO.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

Somewhere I heard that "the eye of a needle" actually means a special kind of tent, in which the camels do can pass but they have to kneel down. Never confirmed it though, just heard it around.

It is also rumored to be a part of the city wall that only a camel can fit through, but I researched this a while back and confirmed to my satisfaction that there is no reasonable evidence that Jesus intended anything other than a metaphor indicating something really difficult or impossible. One commentary I read pointed out that a camel is the biggest animal that most people in that region had ever seen, so using 'camel' may have been like when we say "big as an elephant" or "big as a whale"

 

[riley2112]

You are correct , those were from the O.T. , Sorry , those are the ones that came to mind.
"Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and
be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."
3 John 2.
wow. they are a little harder to find in the New Testament. And I understand about the BMW's ( I drive a Chevy) It would be nice or at least refreshing if I could find at least a few Christians that believed the same way about the same thing. :shout

 

[no-body]

"blessed are the poor" ?

I am not saying poor, I am saying to have enough to eat for you and your family, to be well educated, etc. But when we are talking spending money in things that we really don´t need (like a colection of expensive cars) I would be surprised to see Jesus think that it is great that you have so many BMWs while there are people who don´t even have enough to eat.

Supply-side Jesus says spending money on frivolous luxurious while children starve is keeping the wheels of capitalism spinning; making it the superior way of worshiping the father.

 

[Thief]

Perhaps the 'guess' work can be reduced of you shift your perspective.

Picture yourself in a crowd listening to the Carpenter....

A rich man shows up, and wants to know....
'what must I do to secure a place in your kingdom?'
(the popularity of the Carpenter indicates it could happen....now.)

OBVIOUSLY...he thinks he can make a donation.

That's not how it works. You can't buy your way in.

SO...'sell what you have and give to the poor...then follow Me.'

This was not the bargain the rich man sought.

As for a camel passing through the eye of a needle....
Take it literally.

Reduce a camel to portions small enough to do so.
Not much of that camel..... will be camel.

 

[ChristineES]

I'm aware of how the gospels were constructed, but if they included the exchange at all, even if said to only one person, I still consider it very important. The people who knew him thought this was important enough to pass along to the eventual authors.

If the rich man only needed to give up his attachment to money, then why didn't Jesus just tell him that? And if it only applied only to that man, then when the disciples assumed that it did apply to anyone and in response asked "Then who can get into heaven?", why didn't Jesus simply answer that it only applied to that one man? Or that it only applies to rich men who also 'worship' money?

And again, how do you explain what he said to his disciples about the camel and needle, which is worded in a way that clearly sounds like it applies to any rich man?

I heard awhile back about the tent or gate story being "eye of the needle" definition given. I watched it on the History Channel, I watch all those shows- I find them interesting
All I was saying was that Jesus was speaking to the man alone. Nowadays, everyone reads the gospels, but back in those days people had to travel by camel, on foot, etc. to get to place to place. I don't wish to insult your intelligence, but this was 2,000 years ago. He was speaking to a small crowd at the most. He didn't repeat it over and over to each group He spoke to or if He did, how would we know?
And I did not say it only applied to rich men, that was an example. I would think that it can apply to anything that could be put ahead of God. Some people can be rich and never put their money ahead of God, while someone who isn't as rich may always put money ahead of God. Sometimes it can something else, like food, drugs, alcohol, shoes, etc. We are supposed to put God first in our lives. And our families also need to be taken care of.

 

[riley2112]

I heard awhile back about the tent or gate story being "eye of the needle" definition given. I watched it on the History Channel, I watch all those shows- I find them interesting
All I was saying was that Jesus was speaking to the man alone. Nowadays, everyone reads the gospels, but back in those days people had to travel by camel, on foot, etc. to get to place to place. I don't wish to insult your intelligence, but this was 2,000 years ago. He was speaking to a small crowd at the most. He didn't repeat it over and over to each group He spoke to or if He did, how would we know?
And I did not say it only applied to rich men, that was an example. I would think that it can apply to anything that could be put ahead of God. Some people can be rich and never put their money ahead of God, while someone who isn't as rich may always put money ahead of God. Sometimes it can something else, like food, drugs, alcohol, shoes, etc. We are supposed to put God first in our lives. And our families also need to be taken care of.

I agree with you totally.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

I heard awhile back about the tent or gate story being "eye of the needle" definition given. I watched it on the History Channel, I watch all those shows.

If you're trusting History Channel as your explanation of that verse, then I recommend you do a little research. As I said, I found it not to be true.

He didn't repeat it over and over to each group He spoke to or if He did, how would we know?

Actually it is in more than one place and context, see below.

(Matt. 19:20-26)
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"

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(Luke 12:33-34)
"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also"

(Luke 14:33)
"No one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"

 

[ChristineES]

If you're trusting History Channel as your explanation of that verse, then I recommend you do a little research. As I said, I found it not to be true.



Actually it is in more than one place and context, see below.

(Matt. 19:20-26)
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"

---------------------------------------------------------

(Luke 12:33-34)
"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also"

(Luke 14:33)
"No one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"

Have you sold all your possessions yet? We're just going around and round in this debate, so I will just bow out now. We can agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

Have you sold all your possessions yet? We're just going around and round in this debate, so I will just bow out now. We can agree to disagree on this one.

I have already explained my approach to the teaching in this thread, but yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

[4consideration]

"blessed are the poor" ?

I am not saying poor, I am saying to have enough to eat for you and your family, to be well educated, etc. But when we are talking spending money in things that we really don´t need (like a colection of expensive cars) I would be surprised to see Jesus think that it is great that you have so many BMWs while there are people who don´t even have enough to eat.

I was just asking cause you cited onlt OT, but none of the 4 testaments where Jesus actually spoke. Going by the OT alone, it is nose for nose, but Jesus clearly spoke about that. In the same way, Jesus clearly spoke about giving as much as one can.

So I only asked because you prefered the notions of the OT instead of the 4 testaments that go against it IMO.

___________________________________

Would you please clarify where you are taking that quote, "blessed are the poor" from if it is from some place other than The Beatitudes? The only place that I remember Jesus using those words is in The Beatitudes, but is more complete as, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

As I now understand the meaning of it, that quote has nothing to do with money, or indicating that poverty is a blessing -- but is instead pointing to the blessing contained in keeping our spiritual life simple.

While the word "poor" in modern times usually means "impoverished" there is also an older understanding of it, that in this context, has a meaning closer to concepts like "simple", as in uncomplicated.

To me, the indication from him is that we are blessed when we don't complicate our spiritual life, and just keep it simple.

 

[Nakosis]

This idea of Jesus wanting everyone to give up all their possessions is kind of problematic. I don't generally have anything against Jesus however this position is just not practical unless as some say Jesus thought the end was about to come and no one need worry about education, healthcare, helping the poor, children.

The human race simply would last long if everyone follow this idealism. Maybe that was his intent, that the human race die out so we could all go to heaven? Otherwise there seems little practical in this interpretation of his teaching.

 

[Hexavibrongal]

This idea of Jesus wanting everyone to give up all their possessions is kind of problematic. I don't generally have anything against Jesus however this position is just not practical unless as some say Jesus thought the end was about to come and no one need worry about education, healthcare, helping the poor, children.

I don't think he wants us to live in such extreme poverty that we have no food or medicine and therefore we die, or that he wants us not to work. Why would he say to give to the poor if he expected all of us all to live in such extreme poverty that we die? Wouldn't he then just say to destroy your possessions and money? To me it seems like it's all about working towards a general equality, and to me that's very logical.