Jesus as Christ

[Subduction Zone]

How do you figure, but ok if you’re saying Hebrews 1 is Jesus talking about God then according to this Scripture you’re saying that Jesus is God, who spoke to our fathers etc.

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Sorry, but your non-logic simply does not scan. Would you like to try again?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry, but your non-logic simply does not scan. Would you like to try again?

Exactly, when you say Hebrews 1 is Jesus talking about God it really makes no sense. But that’s what you said.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exactly, when you say Hebrews 1 is Jesus talking about God it really makes no sense. But that’s what you said.

No, it makes perfect sense. That was what he was doing. He was not talking about himself. Your conclusion simply made no sense at all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry it is late at night. Let me clarify a bit. Hebrews was Paul, or some other early Christian, the author is not really known, writing about God and Jesus:

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,<Author of Hebrews talking about God >

2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. <Author of Hebrews talking about Jesus and God, though God worked some god magic through Jesus when he made the universe>

3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.<Author writing some quasi nonsensical claims about Jesus and then saying that they will sit down together. He is God's good old right hand man>

4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name<Oh look at that! Author writing about how Jesus got a promotion, still not God>

 

[blü 2]

Of course that is what you will get if you ask a Jewish scholar who does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

Surely if you want to know what a messiah is in Judaism, the person to ask is a Jewish scholar?

I do not believe that the Servant Songs are about the nation of Israel, as they are obviously referring to a man.

A man in the sense of Uncle Sam or John Bull, perhaps?

To try to make them fit to be the nation of Israel is absurd to say the least, but since Jews do not believe in Jesus, they are going to deny any prophecies that refer to Jesus.

I don't see how the Christians can pass the onus of proof to the Jews. If Jesus was a Jewish messiah then it falls to the Christians to show this is correct, not as a matter of faith but as a matter of fact.

I'm a neutral onlooker. It means nothing to me whether Jesus satisfied the Jewish definition of a messiah or not. But as a matter of history, I don't see how the Christian case can be made. The Christians were the only ones calling Jesus the messiah, yet he was neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, nor anointed by the priesthood.

Nor can I find any justification for the claim that the Jews in fact recognized Jesus as the messiah but refused to say so out loud for their own somehow improper reasons. (I don't think you've made that claim, just to be clear, but others have.)

And Jesus' sect has brought more persecution and killing to the Jews across two thousand years than any other group by an enormous margin ─ an unbelievable thing for the God of the Jews to do to [his] Chosen People.

I have to side with the Christian son this one. Isaiah 42:1–4; Isaiah 49:1–6; Isaiah 50:4–7; and Isaiah 52:13 are referring to the Jesus, although I believe that Isaiah 53 refers to Baha'u'llah, who was the Messiah of the latter days.

As you know, I don't believe in prophecy just as I don't believe in other forms of magic. It's true that prophecy was used as a tool in politics both in and outside of Judaism, but that's a question for psychology and anthropology.

Just by the context, it is obvious to me that Isaiah 7:14 is referring to Jesus, not just some child.

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

First, it doesn't say virgin, it says 'almah, young woman. It doesn't become 'virgin' until the translators of the Septuagint translate it using the Greek word parthenos (virgin). That is, 'virgin' is not a requirement in the original.

Second the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke were born by the divine insemination of a virgin but the Jesus of Mark certainly was not, and the Jesuses of Paul and of John inferentially were not, since it seems too remarkable a datum to omit if the claim is there.

Third, Isaiah 7 is about Ahaz, king of Judah, whose throne is threatened by his neighbors. God says, Ahaz, if you want a sign, just ask (Isaiah 7:11) and when Ahaz declines (7:12) , that's when we learn that the sign is for Ahaz and his time (13-14). A young woman will bear a son, Immanuel, who'll be of good omen. And what happens? In Isaiah 8:3 "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son," and since we're still in the same tale, that's the son in 7:14.

 

[Polymath257]

I do not know how you think a religious belief can be *tested* and challenged to see where and how it *breaks*.

This, to me, is key. It shows that there is no way to correct any ideas that are mistaken. And *that* shows me there is no possibility of knowledge (justified true belief).

And *that* leads me to wonder why anyone would believe in something that cannot be verified.

I see you just answered the questions I asked above. There is no possible observation and there is no way to test and challenge religious ideas. That all depends upon what you expect to observe. Of course you cannot observe God, and you cannot even observe the Messengers of God, unless you live in the times when thye walked the earth, but you can observe what they did on their mission and what they wrote by reading.

And this is precisely why religious ideas can be so dangerous! Because there is no way to test, people can dream up anything they feel like and claim it is valid. And that is what leads to extremism and all of the bad aspects of religion.

Faith is *precisely* the problem that leads to all of the really bad aspects of religion.

You are correct that religious beliefs are always subject to error and personal bias, but that does not mean that a religious belief cannot be true, it just means you have to have a method of determining that which is unbiased and leads to the truth.[/QUOTE]

 

[Polymath257]

Who ever convinced you that the Bible was similar to mythology, fictional or exaggerated? Supernatural, yes because God is that awesome.

Reading other books is what shows the similarities. Nobody has to 'convince me' other than the simple act of reading for understanding and knowing the cultures. It is all superstition as far as I can see.

 

[RabbiO]

@Trailblazer -

Isaiah 7:14 says nothing about a virgin. If you knew Hebrew you would know that, but then you don’t know Hebrew.

Actually you don’t know a lot about many things, including Judaism on just about any level. Not knowing much about a topic is certainly no crime. It’s not necessarily a shame…… unless one chooses to tout one’s ignorance like a badge of honor.

Some time ago someone, I think it was me, pointed out that your comments indicated you had no knowledge or understanding of Judaism. You responded that you neither need nor desire to learn because Judaism had been superceded, most recently by the Baha’i faith, and had no meaning or relevance anymore.

You need to stick to things you know.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sorry, that is after the fact spin. Nothing more.

I'm not sure what you mean. Jacob was an individual who had his name changed to Israel. So, there was an individual who was the head of the twelve tribes that also collectively became known as lsrael.

The same is true of Christ, who is the new Israel, head of all who call themselves Israel. For, as scripture says, 'all lsrael shall be saved' [Romans 11:26].

 

[Altfish]

'Christ' means the same as 'Messiah' - the 'anointed' of God. How can you accept Jesus as Christ but deny that he is the Messiah?

Only to Christians; outside your bubble Jesus Christ and the Messiah are not the same.

To quote Brian's mum, "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy"

 

[Redemptionsong]

Don't you think that should be for God to decide what humans need? After all, God is the Creator, so God should know best what humans need.

You are correct, spiritual truth does not change from age to age, it is eternal, so what Jesus said will always be the truth.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

But man and the world he lives in do change markedly over time, so that is why God sends new Manifestations in every new age, to meet the needs of the changing times.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

Jesus did not fail. Jesus fulfilled His purpose when He died on the cross for the sins of all of humanity and brought the Holy Spirit, but humanity had additional needs after that. Humanity continues to have needs and those needs vary according to the circumstances of the age in which he lives.

“As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings, p. 81

Hebrews 9:25-27. 'Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with the blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.'

This passage of scripture makes it abundantly clear that there can only be one Christ, or Messiah. Sin cannot be taken away by anyone other than the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

IMO.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Humans who saw Jesus saw the Spirit of the Father working through Him. How do you think we can see it now that Jesus has ascended to heaven?

Once Jesus had ascended to heaven, he was able to send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is now the means by which we know the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Father.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Reading other books is what shows the similarities. Nobody has to 'convince me' other than the simple act of reading for understanding and knowing the cultures. It is all superstition as far as I can see.

I found that there is the Truth, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Proved that by rising from the dead. Then there are a multitude of counterfeits because Satan is the author of those.

 

[Redemptionsong]

As I said, the 'Suffering Servant' is the nation of Israel. It is NOT Jesus ─ that's all Christian retrofit. Ask any Jewish scholar or any of the many non-tendentious Christian scholars.

In exact the same way, Jesus is not the "Immanuel" of Isaiah 7:14. You only have to read on in that chapter to see that the child referred to is born and becomes the regional king.

And of course if there's one thing the God of the Tanakh is not, it's triune.

That's simply the author of Luke bringing in parts of the Tanakh that he likes to think can be applied to Jesus.

Right from the first gospel, Mark, the practice of forming the story around episodes in the Tanakh that appeal to the author as "messianic prophecies" is obvious. The most blatant examples are probably those found in Matthew, who, for example:

─ makes Mary a virgin because the Septuagint translates Isaiah 7:14's 'almah 'young woman' as Greek parthenos 'virgin' (even though, as I said, the young lady's son can't be Jesus if you read the chapter) and even though the authors of Mark and John either haven't heard of it or reject it)

─ invents the unhistoric 'Taxation Census' story to get Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to “fulfill” Micah 5:2

─ invents the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1

─ absurdly sits Jesus across a foal and a donkey to ride into Jerusalem "to fulfill prophecy" (Matthew 21:2-5) in Zechariah 9.9

And do you really think his zombies (Matthew 27:52-53) romped through the streets of Jerusalem and no one else in history noticed such an extraordinary event, not even the other gospel authors?
Yes, anointed by the Jewish priesthood, and there's no sense in which Jesus qualified, being neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish nation.

And I'm looking forward to your explaining to me why the God of the Jews generated two millennia of often murderous Christian antisemitism through Jesus, while having no similar argument with Rome who then ruled the Jewish nation and ignoring much of Europe and all of Africa, India, Asia, the Americas, and Australia altogether.
To carry the authority of the boss is not to be the boss. The Viceroy of India ruled India hands-on but was answerable to the British government of the day, for example. Pilate as Prefect of Judea was in much the same position.

The first thing that I'm pleased to read in your post is that you accept the Tanakh as the word of God! This is an important starting point for meaningful conversation about the person of Jesus.

It's also important to acknowledge that, throughout the Tanakh, prophecies of the coming Messiah are found in 'type' (such as Abraham taking Isaac for sacrifice at Mount Moriah) and in the eternal 'perfection' of temporal servants, kings and priests. In King David, for example, we have 'David my servant' or reference to the Messiah [see Ezekiel 37:24]

You believe that followers of Jesus concocted the story of Jesus, by taking prophecies from the Tanakh and ascribing them to Jesus, without justification. I hold that this is an impossible position to sustain, because there are events in the life of Jesus, such as the birth and crucifixion, which cannot have been concocted by the design of Jesus' followers! Yet, these events are prophesied in scripture.

You ask why it is that the Jews have suffered for two thousand years, living as a 'diaspora', a migrant minority, without a land of their own.

Listen to Moses. Deuteronomy 29:25-28. 'Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.'

What is still more remarkable, is that Moses goes on to say 'That then [following repentance amongst Jews] the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.'

What is this, if not prophecy about the nation of Israel over a period of two thousand years?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not sure what you mean. Jacob was an individual who had his name changed to Israel. So, there was an individual who was the head of the twelve tribes that also collectively became known as lsrael.

The same is true of Christ, who is the new Israel, head of all who call themselves Israel. For, as scripture says, 'all lsrael shall be saved' [Romans 11:26].

Context matters, and in the Bible the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel named after its mythical founder.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I found that there is the Truth, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Proved that by rising from the dead. Then there are a multitude of counterfeits because Satan is the author of those.

But you have no valid reason for this belief. You only have "works for me". Just about every religion has someone that was "saved" by their religion. That is not very convincing evidence at all for a god.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Only to Christians; outside your bubble Jesus Christ and the Messiah are not the same.

To quote Brian's mum, "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy"

Life of Brian is more accurate than some documentaries that you will see on the History Channel.

 

[ElishaElijah]

But you have no valid reason for this belief. You only have "works for me". Just about every religion has someone that was "saved" by their religion. That is not very convincing evidence at all for a god.

There is only 1 valid proof whether or not someone is saved and that is whether or not they have been born again of the Holy Spirit as a result of repenting and believing the Gospel.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is only 1 valid proof whether or not someone is saved and that is whether or not they have been born again of the Holy Spirit as a result of repenting and believing the Gospel.

Sorry that is not proof. You do not appear to understand what proof is. And you never substantiated your claim that one has to have been saved to understand the Bible.

 

[Polymath257]

I found that there is the Truth, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Proved that by rising from the dead. Then there are a multitude of counterfeits because Satan is the author of those.

Well, I have no doubt that is your *belief*. But without evidence, there is no reason anyone else should believe the same as you.

I see the stories of the resurrection as just that: stories. Like the stories of Elvis living long past when he died.

In my mind, Satan is just as much a superstition as God is.