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Jesus as Christ

Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Unveiled Artist said:
No. It's confirmation bias. A non-christian (maybe a theologian or so have you) would have to come to the same conclusions after reading and/or studying the bible... they'd also have to conclude historically and objectively there is the supernatural for it to be taken as true/fact apart from scripture and other like testimonies. They also have to test the testimonials to know if it is true and line up but since jesus and the apostles (and witnesses) are not living, that's impossible to do.

There seems to be a good enough historical evidence that a jesus existed (I assume) but not so much of god or a creator. They both need to have some form of existence to know they have anything to do with each other.
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IMO, the words of scripture speak as powerfully to the human heart in the twenty-first century as they did in the first century. The historical framework for those teachings, parables, and actions, is sound.

When it comes to miracles and works of love, the Church today is witness to the same truths that Jesus exhibited in his own day.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
When he was directly accused of claiming deifying himself he responded; "You say that I am". Not, "I am". He also pointed out several times that he was not "his father".
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In Luke 22:70, the elders and chief priests said, 'Art thou then the son of God?' and Jesus replied, 'Ye say that I am'.

We know from John 5:18 that the Jews wanted Jesus put to death for claiming equality with God. Jesus was therefore justified in saying, 'Ye say that I am'.

John 5:18. 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.'

So Jesus was claiming equality with the Father.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Polymath257 said:
The two are not the same, but I do believe that faith in a deity is one form of superstition. But there are other types of superstition than that.

Why do you limit it to evidence from the Bible? Evidence from other writings at the time show just how superstitious people were at the time. The eagerness of those in the Bible to believe rather unusual things (as I see them) is quite consistent with their being superstitious.
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The Bible cannot be a book of superstition if it actively discourages superstition....which it does. Note in Daniel 2:27,28 that true prophecy is not accessible to wise men, astrologers, magicians, or soothsayers.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Redemptionsong said:
The Bible cannot be a book of superstition if it actively discourages superstition....which it does. Note in Daniel 2:27,28 that true prophecy is not accessible to wise men, astrologers, magicians, or soothsayers.
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In my view the Bible only discourages *competing* superstitions. It encourages its own.

The only 'true prophesy' (as far as I can see) is what happens in science: find a physical law and you can predict the future. For example, I can predict that there will be a total eclipse of the sun on April 8, 2024 where the shadow of the moon will start in the southern pacific ocean, travel across Mexico and the US, and end in Nova Scotia. If asked, I can even provide specific times for when the eclipse will be visible everywhere along its route.

NO religious prophesy, as far as I can see, even comes close in precision, accuracy, or certainty.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Polymath257 said:
Any actual proof of the existence of a deity. Any proof that the Bible is a reliable exposition of what happened. Any basis to accept the Bible while rejecting all the other 'Holy Books' that tell stories that disagree with the Bible.



And no reason at all to actually believe those testimonies.



Why limit yourself to a collection of writings selected specifically to present a viewpoint? Why not consider all the other writings of the time that told wildly varying stories, which were often also accepted by the early believers?



The claims that he was divine.



I disagree. Objectivity comes from observation. There have been no observations of deities by reliable witnesses, so deities are (in my view) not objective.



Depends on the specific rules. What God declares to be Holy may or may not be good.



I do not agree that faith is a good thing. I find it to be a dereliction of our duty to think for ourselves.



Zero. The same number of times (as I see it) since before Jesus walked the Earth.
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Why is it that humanists insist on seeking proof of a God who is supernatural? The supernatural, in itself, cannot be observed by the natural man. It takes faith to please God [Hebrews 11:6]. Why do you think the apostles insisted that people 'repent and believe'?
 
sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Redemptionsong said:
Because, for some, Truth matters.
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As far as I am concerned one can go on believing whatever one believes in as along as it does not harm others. Goes for you as well. If you have specific questions about other beliefs feel free to ask. But it's you who has to choose what to accept or reject and in that nobody else has any hand.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

What reasons do you have for BELIEVING that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?
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He returned from the death of his mortal body on his own volition as he said he would. There were other aspects of his life that were “tells”.
 
Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

What reasons do you have for BELIEVING that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?
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You have very good questions there.

Unfortunately, to answer properly, I might need to know what you mean by “Jesus lived as God”.

Because, you must be aware that the Bible says:

Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

Does that NOT answer the question? Or does your question mean something different?
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Redemptionsong said:
Why is it that humanists insist on seeking proof of a God who is supernatural? The supernatural, in itself, cannot be observed by the natural man. It takes faith to please God [Hebrews 11:6]. Why do you think the apostles insisted that people 'repent and believe'?
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Why do theists insist on saying a supernatural exists when there is no way to observe it? I only ask for as much proof as there is currently for dark matter.

I think the apostles said what they did because they didn't want anyone questioning their message. Since the original sin (supposedly) was related to knowledge (of good and evil), knowledge has *always* been of bad taste to Abrahamic religions.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
He said he and the father were one.
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"One" in mind and spirit, sure. He also said he was not his "father". He also refused to state that he was God when accused, and corrected those who tried to call him God. So you believe what you want.

In those days the son of a family patriarch was considered to be a binding proxy for the patriarch, himself. They could speak on behalf of the patriarch, and make binding commitments on behalf of the patriarch. When Jesus called himself the "son of God" it was to indicate that he was speaking and acting as a proxy for God's will and spirit. In this way he allowed himself to be treated as a direct representative. But he did not allow himself to be called "God", or "the Father". Nor do I believe he in any way considered himself to be God.

To be "at one" with God in mind and spirit is not the same as being God.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
John 5:18. 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.'

So Jesus was claiming equality with the Father.
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This is not claiming equity with God. It is claiming divine proxy. He was claiming the authority to speak and act on God's behalf. Not that he was God's equal.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
firedragon said:
Why do atheists like you insist on bringing your same old advertisement in every thread, what ever the topic is?
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My posts were answering questions, then asking a counter question much like I was asked.

Why is asking questions seen as an advertisement?
 
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