Jesus as Christ

[Polymath257]

Because Polymath, its an advertisement. The question is a guise. Cheers.

No, it is a quite serious question. Why you think otherwise isn't clear to me.

 

[AlexanderG]

1. Miracles having been occurring in the Christian Church since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. There are numerous accounts and testimonies of such miracles.

2. John 5:31. 'If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true'. Jesus intentionally chose a close group of apostles, who were to be his primary witnesses. It is their witness that is recorded in the New Testament, and I can see no contradictory statements. Maybe you could be specific in pointing some out.

3. Once again, specific references are required to support your views on Islam and Mormonism, given that they fall outside the canon of scripture accepted by the Church. So what do you find so hard to believe about Jesus, in particular?

4. As an atheist, you have no objective reality. Objectivity is for God alone.

5. Is it wrong that a holy God should require his people to be holy?

6. You might have convinced yourself, but not me! This argument of yours can only be applied to those poor souls who have failed to accept the need for faith in matters of God.

1. I said "zero examples of confirmed miracles." There are plenty of claimed miracles, from all sorts of faiths, spiritual traditions, martial arts schools, etc, and not a single one has been confirmed. A miracle is a two step process. First, demonstrate that the event actually happened. Second, demonstrate that the event was caused by a god, spirit, ghost, etc. Very very rarely is there actual evidence for the first step, and never has there been evidence for the second. Only the unverifiable claims, which are not useful.

2. I think you should look into the biblical scholarship, done primarily by Christians. The consensus is that none of the gospels were authored by their namesakes. These scholars also agree that the Epistles of Peter were almost certainly not written by Peter, for example, and it's basically the same case for the rest of the New Testament except for some of the writings attributed to Paul. The bible is anonymous propaganda based on decades of dynamic oral tradition. This is why so many people lose their faith during Seminary, because ministers and preachers withhold this information from their lay congregations. But all the information is there and it makes many dig even deeper once they hear about it, wondering what else has been hidden from them.

3. Joseph Smith has several signed statements from identified witnesses who we can confirm existed, stating that they also witnessed his miraculous golden tablets. We have confirmed writings by Joseph Smith himself and all of his contemporaries. The bible is anonymous hearsay. Mormonism has better evidence. Islam can trace back the Koran to the original, whereas Christianity can only hope that the bible mostly represents the original manuscripts, and more than half of Paul's letters are thought to be forgeries. There are many contemporaneous third party writings about Mohammed, but none for Jesus. We know of several alterations made to the bible; how many more are we unaware of? Again, better evidence for Islam.

4. A baseless claim, supported by an arbitrary definition. I can say "As a theist, you have no objective reality. Objectivity comes from natural physicalism alone," and I would be equally unjustified by simply defining my position as correct. In any case, I define objective as meaning true independent of any mind, which makes any god's commandments or opinions purely subjective.

5. I don't know how your question addresses any of the points I raised in this section. For a god to do anything, it would have to first exist. Also, an omnipotent, omniscient creator god seems like it would have no need for us to do anything at all, nor could we possibly have a choice in the matter since it would have created us knowing exactly what we would do in our entire existence, and intentionally choosing to create us exactly like that instead of any other way. No free will, no justification for god blaming anyone for their pre-selected actions, hell is a gratuitous infinite evil perpetrated by a "perfectly good" being, etc. It's incoherent.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Bible cannot be a book of superstition if it actively discourages superstition....which it does. Note in Daniel 2:27,28 that true prophecy is not accessible to wise men, astrologers, magicians, or soothsayers.

Charlatans often argue that they're special in a way that other charlatans are not.

 

[Wildswanderer]

One" in mind and spirit, sure. He also said he was not his "father". He also refused to state that he was God when accused, and corrected those who tried to call him God.

Where did he do that? He accepted worship as God. That was blasphemy if he was not God.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is not claiming equity with God. It is claiming divine proxy. He was claiming the authority to speak and act on God's behalf. Not that he was God's equal.

Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?' 'I am,' said Jesus. 'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven' " (Mark 14:61-62 )

They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making a reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14)...

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[1] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

By combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110,
(The Lord says to my lord:[1]"Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." 2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!" )
He was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's glory.

That's blasphemy for anyone but God.

So, "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64-65).

Why would they be angry if he was just claiming to be some high angel or special prophet?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Is the Bible, and all that the Bible reveals, not evidence enough?

What evidence is lacking?

The bible is a book filled with fantastical claims for which there is absolutely no verifiable evidence.

 

[blü 2]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

There are five versions of Jesus in the NT ─ Paul's, and those of the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

First, each of them states that he is NOT God ─

(Paul) Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

(To tidy that up, it's often claimed that in John 8:58 Jesus' Before Abraham was I am is a claim to be God. However, the Jesuses of Paul and of John (unlike the synoptic Jesuses) are the gnostic demiurge, and each has pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe eg Paul 1 Corinthians 8:6 above, John 1:3) which is what the statement refers to.

And it's often claimed that when John 10:30 Jesus says "The Father and I are one" he's claiming to be God. However, what he means is explained in John 17:20-23, that he is one with God in a manner that any believer can be one with God.)

Second, Jesus prays to God in all four gospels, and if Jesus is God then the Jesuses of Mark and of Luke say on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?". There are other silly consequences to the claim as well.

Third, the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the fourth century CE. The gospel authors had never heard of it and its concepts are not found in the NT. And the Trinity doctrine is admitted by the churches to be incoherent ─ "a mystery in the strict sense" ─ which is no winning credential.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

Heh... I'm way off at "I can't see any way that God could even be possible." I'm not anywhere close to taking your question as something that warrants serious consideration.

 

[DNB]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

None of the required terminology can be found anywhere in the Bible (god-man, hypostatic union, incarnation, God the son, two natures, two-in-one)
Not one conversion that took place in the New Testament, ever stipulated a 'god man' requirement for one's faith.
Whenever Jesus was referred to after his death, by either Christ himself or the apostles, he was titled as 'Jesus of Nazareth', never God.
Peter, Stephen or Paul before the Sanhedrin, never accused them of killing God, but the man Jesus.
Paul explaining the logistics of the Atonement in Romans 5, demands that only a man must redeem what another man had lost. There is no requirement of a god-man in order to effectuate man's salvation.
Christ emphatically and incessantly claimed that he was impotent without the Father's bestowed power and authority, and he denied that he was God when pressed (John 10:33-36)
It's an ontological impossibility - everything that defines divinity, is antithetical to that which defines humanity - no such thing as a god-man.
It is an ontological redundancy to have more than one all-powerful person, or entity, within the Godhead.
....

 

[Twilight Hue]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

What reasons do you have for BELIEVING that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

Only Thor at the bus stop knows for sure.

I don't believe because I hear it has to do with the fact that Jesus never had welded a kick *** hammer like Thor has.

You cannot be a god without a kick *** hammer.

 

[firedragon]

History and the way legends grow over time. The society of the time was *very* superstitious by today's standards and so the legend grew and became a supernatural story.

Actually, since you said superstitious, maybe the world is still the same as it was 2000 years ago. I maybe wrong but I am sure you are saying superstitions to all religions and they are still alive today.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is the Bible, and all that the Bible reveals, not evidence enough?

What evidence is lacking?

One way of looking at it: the outsider test for faith.

For instance, Rastafarians believe that Haille Selassie was God incarnate. What evidence would you need to be convinced of that claim?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Any actual proof of the existence of a deity. Any proof that the Bible is a reliable exposition of what happened. Any basis to accept the Bible while rejecting all the other 'Holy Books' that tell stories that disagree with the Bible.



And no reason at all to actually believe those testimonies.



Why limit yourself to a collection of writings selected specifically to present a viewpoint? Why not consider all the other writings of the time that told wildly varying stories, which were often also accepted by the early believers?



The claims that he was divine.



I disagree. Objectivity comes from observation. There have been no observations of deities by reliable witnesses, so deities are (in my view) not objective.



Depends on the specific rules. What God declares to be Holy may or may not be good.



I do not agree that faith is a good thing. I find it to be a dereliction of our duty to think for ourselves.



Zero. The same number of times (as I see it) since before Jesus walked the Earth.

How does one apply proof to God? According to scripture it is faith that provides the substance. As it says in Galatians, 'Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham'.

IMO, there is one God, one Truth, one Christ, revealed prophetically through one people, lsrael. Why waste your time on half truths and lies?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Do you think that The Gospel Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster proves its existence?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00B0PFOIW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

So to answer your question, no, I think the Bible is not a special book of fiction

You appear to have a special liking for the Flying Spagetti Monster. The Bible is, however, not a book of fairytales but a book that reveals Christ, the Saviour of the world. IMO.

The Bible is only a fairytale to those who reject personal sinfulness, and reject Jesus as the righteousness of God. IMO.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It all comes down to how you define God

People in agony might cry out "my body hurts". This proves that "my body" is not who I really am. So, who am I? Clearly you are the witness who knows "I am not the body". This witness is called Consciousness in Advaita. And Consciousness is God.

The moment you realize this, you realize that in reality you are not the body, but the Witness = Consciousness = God

Jesus has said, according to the Bible "I and my Father are one". Meaning, Jesus was aware that He is not the body, but He is the Witness (hence coincidentally (or not) Jehova Witnesses got their name).

So, Jesus knew that He is in reality the Witness, Consciousness and also called God.
Hence Jesus lived as God (in this Awareness) amongst men on earth

Does this mean that there are many christs on earth? Is there no head to the body?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Uncounted times. Per Meher Baba, God becomes man as Avatar in a cycle of 7. The ones we know are Zoroaster, Krishna, Rama, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad (in spite of Islamic theology) and Meher Baba said he was the 7th in this cycle.

Meher Baba outlined the reasons for the Avatar, the Christ to take birth:

The Avatar appears in different forms, under different names, at different times, in different parts of the world. As his appearance always coincides with the spiritual birth of man, so the period immediately preceding his manifestation is always one in which humanity suffers from the pangs of the approaching birth. Man seems more than ever enslaved by desire, more than ever driven by greed, held by fear, swept by anger. The strong dominate the weak; the rich oppress the poor; large masses of people are exploited for the benefit of the few who are in power. The individual, who finds no peace or rest, seeks to forget himself in excitement. Immorality increases, crime flourishes, religion is ridiculed. Corruption spreads throughout the social order. Class and national hatreds are aroused and fostered. Wars break out. Humanity grows desperate. There seems to be no possibility of stemming the tide of destruction.

At this moment the Avatar appears. Being the total manifestation of God in human form, he is like a gauge against which man can measure what he is and what he may become. He trues the standard of human values by interpreting them in terms of divinely human life...

IMO, the only way that these various avatars can be confirmed as 'from God' is to compare the messages and ways of living that they lay down as an example to others. But, as we see in most cases, these avatars are not sticking to a consistent and coherent script.

If a messenger is not pointing to Jesus Christ, who are they pointing to?

 

[Redemptionsong]

One way of looking at it: the outsider test for faith.

For instance, Rastafarians believe that Haille Selassie was God incarnate. What evidence would you need to be convinced of that claim?

That he was perfect, without sin.

 

[Altfish]

You appear to have a special liking for the Flying Spagetti Monster. The Bible is, however, not a book of fairytales but a book that reveals Christ, the Saviour of the world. IMO.

The Bible is only a fairytale to those who reject personal sinfulness, and reject Jesus as the righteousness of God. IMO.

Oh dear!
No, I have no great affection for the FSM but it is a great example of a religious book. Why do you reject other gods? Zeus, Woden and the FSM?
So you are accusing me of 'personal sinfulness' just because I, an ex-Christian, saw the light.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That he was perfect, without sin.

So you'd need to prove a negative. Is this even possible?

I don't think you've done this for Jesus. I mean, to prove that someone was completely sinless, you'd need to know every detail of their actions and thoughts over their entire life. You don't have that for Jesus.

Why are you asking that Haille Selassie meet a standard that you haven't asked Jesus to meet?

... or do you really believe that the Bible (which, even if we assume that every word is true, says nothing at all about Jesus's life between about 13 and 30) actually establishes that Jesus was sinless?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Oh dear!
No, I have no great affection for the FSM but it is a great example of a religious book. Why do you reject other gods? Zeus, Woden and the FSM?
So you are accusing me of 'personal sinfulness' just because I, an ex-Christian, saw the light.

The way in which one is able to come to a personal knowledge of God is through His Son, the one who came to declare the truth by dwelling on earth amongst men. Who else can make a legitimate claim to being the one and only Messiah? Certainly not Zeus, Woden or the FSM. IMO.

What light do you claim to have seen since rejecting Jesus Christ as 'the light of men' [John 1:4]?