Jesus as Christ

[firedragon]

Well, people today are *less* likely to see the supernatural hiding around every corner. So we are *less* superstitious than in the past.

Whats the research on this?

 

[firedragon]

Jesus was Jewish on mom's side, and perhaps Jewish on dad's side, as well.

I think you replied to my post mistakenly Clara Tea.

 

[Polymath257]

I think you underestimate faith. Faith is how one lives when one discovers that man's reasoning and logic are weak in comparison with God's omniscience.

I see faith as an evil. it is believing without evidence. It is denying reality in favor of fantasies. it is holding vague, unfounded ideas above those that are supported and observed.

I agree that 'man's' reasoning and logic are subject to error. But it is *by far* the best we have and far, far better than faith. And, over time, with testing and observation, it can be corrected.

In Genesis 12 we have the story of Abra(ha)m. God made a promise to Abram, saying, 'And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:'

Could logic or reasoning have brought these promises to fruition? Clearly not. In fact, as the reality of barrenness took hold of Sarai, Abram's wife, it became ever clearer, according to man's reasoning, that God's blessing was not going to happen. Yet it did, because throughout the hopeless years, Abraham remained faithful that God's Word was true. Time and time again, Abraham listened to God and followed his commandments, even when the action made little sense (taking his son Isaac as a sacrifice).

In fact, if people do not have faith, they usually fail at the first hurdle. As I watched Emma Raducanu play tennis, I was impressed by her faith in doing what she believed was possible. Without that faith you can have all the talent and intellect in the world, and still fail.

A Christian places their faith in a God who has made himself known at a personal level. The friendship becomes real and trustworthy; to the point where one is happy to trust Jesus Christ above the word of man.

IMO.

Sorry, but I do not see the story of Abraham as reliable. It is also a fairy tale as far as I can see.

In the story of the tennis player, you are mistaking religious faith (which is based on no evidence) with ordinary confidence (which is).

In my opinion, faith is a dereliction of duty.

 

[Polymath257]

Whats the research on this?

Reading about the cultures and their perspective on things.

 

[stvdv]

Does this mean that there are many christs on earth?

I assume you mean Jesus in this context, because I did not use the word "christ"

Short answer: "NO"

Longer answer: We all have the potential to rise up to a certain level. Not all people being born have the desire to get Self Realized though, and looking around, I don't see "many of the level of Jesus" (as narrated in the Bible). And even when Self Realized, this does not imply that one has powers like the Bible attributed to Jesus

Is there no head to the body?

What you ask is way beyond my knowledge. You ask about what is going on, outside this world, as I assume you mean the spiritual world. I came across information when reading books, but I rather stick to the things I have experienced myself, especially when sharing with others

 

[firedragon]

Reading about the cultures and their perspective on things.

Arbitrary statements. Anyway you just dismiss theism as superstition so with that aim I doubt you will even engage with any idea of doing proper research.

Anyway in your readings, have you read about the Advaita Hindu's? How about the Abidhamma Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka? What about the King TIssa in Asia who was visited supposedly by Buddhism later? That was I think around 2300 years ago.

You dont have a choice but to define superstition to suit your need so that you can stick to your position.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you know why there is very little written about Jesus between his birth and the time he was thirty? It's revealed clearly in Galatians 4:4, which states, 'But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.'

Jesus was made under the law. He was born under the law, and lived until thirty under the law. He was, if you like, an orthodox Jew, living righteously under the law of Moses. Then, at the time of Jesus' baptism, God said, 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased' [Matthew 3:17]. Clearly, God was pleased with the life that Jesus had led up until he was thirty! So God considered Jesus righteous under the law. This was how God viewed Jesus before he started his ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Righteousness under the law is the righteousness of man.

Righteousness by the Holy Spirit is the righteousness of God.

Do you understand the difference between "we have good reasons for not having the material to establish that Jesus was sinless" and "we have established that Jesus was sinless"?

The other point, on resurrection.
Jesus Christ said,

'I am the resurrection, and the life' [John 11:25], so no one gets eternal life except through Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ was the only sinless man, so unless you have the sinlessness of Christ in you (the Holy Spirit) you are none of His. Believers are accounted righteous through faith in Christ, who was sinless. It has nothing to do with their own sinlessness.

So coming back from the dead now doesn't necessarily mean that a person is sinless?

 

[Altfish]

Science does not claim to explain that which is eternal and invisible.

Yes, but religion just invents an answer - based on absolutely no evidence.
I can't live with that

 

[Redemptionsong]

Do you understand the difference between "we have good reasons for not having the material to establish that Jesus was sinless" and "we have established that Jesus was sinless"?


So coming back from the dead now doesn't necessarily mean that a person is sinless?

We have good reason to believe that Jesus was sinless. The power of Christ's resurrection in the life of the Church is testament to that reality.

Coming back to life now is not the same as resurrection to eternal life. Lazarus was raised from the dead to demonstrate God's love and compassion, but Lazarus went on to die a bodily death. He awaits resurrection, as do all who enter the grave.

IMO.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?
What reasons do you have for BELIEVING that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

1) Jesus gives credit to his God as being the Creator- Revelation 4:11; Revelation 3:14 B
2) God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2. God being from everlasting to everlasting God can Not die.
3) Jesus was "IN" the beginning, but only his God was "BEFORE" the beginning - Psalms 90:2
4) God was never first born but God sent His heavenly first born from Heaven to us - Colossians 1:15-17; Ephesians 3:9 B.
5) Dead Jesus (Acts 2:27) did Not resurrect himself but his God resurrected Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 3:15
6) Resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus did Not appear in front of himself - Hebrews 9:24.
7) Heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............Coming back to life now is not the same as resurrection to eternal life. Lazarus was raised from the dead to demonstrate God's love and compassion, but Lazarus went on to die a bodily death. He awaits resurrection, as do all who enter the grave.IMO.

Yes, agree, Lazarus (John 11:11-14; John 12:9-10; John 5:28-29) is awaiting a resurrection.
That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the 'future tense' that there 'is going to be' a resurrection....
And the people alive on Earth at Jesus' coming Glory Time (Matthew 25:31:33,37) can remain alive on Earth and be here to see calendar Day One of Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
This is when even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[Redemptionsong]

I see faith as an evil. it is believing without evidence. It is denying reality in favor of fantasies. it is holding vague, unfounded ideas above those that are supported and observed.

I agree that 'man's' reasoning and logic are subject to error. But it is *by far* the best we have and far, far better than faith. And, over time, with testing and observation, it can be corrected.



Sorry, but I do not see the story of Abraham as reliable. It is also a fairy tale as far as I can see.

In the story of the tennis player, you are mistaking religious faith (which is based on no evidence) with ordinary confidence (which is).

In my opinion, faith is a dereliction of duty.

In the New Testament, the word 'faith' is pistis in Greek. It means a firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing.

Now, from what you say, you think that confidence placed in worldly things is more reliable than confidence placed in God. Yet, this is exactly what Jesus warned against. He said, 'But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will be your heart also.'

To ask where you place your faith, is like asking where you place your confidence. What is there in this world that is worth placing confidence in? Is it our youthfulness, which lasts for a season and then fades? Is it our intellect, that starts out sharp and ends up tired and forgetful? Is it our wealth, that gives temporary satisfaction and comfort, but leaves others wanting?

What is your primary duty towards your fellow man?

 

[Redemptionsong]

1) Jesus gives credit to his God as being the Creator- Revelation 4:11; Revelation 3:14 B
2) God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2. God being from everlasting to everlasting God can Not die.
3) Jesus was "IN" the beginning, but only his God was "BEFORE" the beginning - Psalms 90:2
4) God was never first born but God sent His heavenly first born from Heaven to us - Colossians 1:15-17; Ephesians 3:9 B.
5) Dead Jesus (Acts 2:27) did Not resurrect himself but his God resurrected Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 3:15
6) Resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus did Not appear in front of himself - Hebrews 9:24.
7) Heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12.

Let's look at the alternatives before us:
1. Jesus is Man only
2. Jesus is God only
3. Jesus is God-Man

I take it from your post that you believe No.1. Is that correct?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...1. Jesus is Man only
I take it from your post that you believe No.1. Is that correct?

You might find it of interest to read 1 Thessalonians 4:16 because it says the Lord (aka Jesus) has the voice of the archangel.
Each person has their very own voice.
So, since heavenly Jesus has the archangel's voice that makes Jesus as Michael the Archangel.

 

[Polymath257]

In the New Testament, the word 'faith' is pistis in Greek. It means a firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing.

Now, from what you say, you think that confidence placed in worldly things is more reliable than confidence placed in God. Yet, this is exactly what Jesus warned against. He said, 'But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will be your heart also.'

OK, So Jesus was wrong.

To ask where you place your faith, is like asking where you place your confidence. What is there in this world that is worth placing confidence in? Is it our youthfulness, which lasts for a season and then fades? Is it our intellect, that starts out sharp and ends up tired and forgetful? Is it our wealth, that gives temporary satisfaction and comfort, but leaves others wanting?

It is our ability to think and reason, to evaluate and question. yes, we fail as we age, but others take our place in the progression of ideas.

What is your primary duty towards your fellow man?

To think and care.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You might find it of interest to read 1 Thessalonians 4:16 because it says the Lord (aka Jesus) has the voice of the archangel.
Each person has their very own voice.
So, since heavenly Jesus has the archangel's voice that makes Jesus as Michael the Archangel.

What are you suggesting? That three categories are not enough?

Do you deny that Jesus was a man?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, but religion just invents an answer - based on absolutely no evidence.
I can't live with that

To suggest that Jesus was without witnesses is untrue. There were multiple witnesses to his life, and to his resurrection.

There are also numerous prophecies to the coming of a 'suffering servant' which find fulfilment in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[sun rise]

IMO, the only way that these various avatars can be confirmed as 'from God' is to compare the messages and ways of living that they lay down as an example to others. But, as we see in most cases, these avatars are not sticking to a consistent and coherent script.

If a messenger is not pointing to Jesus Christ, who are they pointing to?

The message in essence is always the same - the emphasis and mode of expression varies because the people and the times vary.

My point was not 'messengers' but that the Avatar, The Christ is One and the same every time He comes.

The Avatar/Christ always points to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

What reasons do you have for BELIEVING that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

I believe that Jesus lived as a Manifestation of God on earth. Below are some of the reasons I believe that.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess: The Attributes that are unique to God: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial, nobody except God can have those Attributes.

However, the Father is in the Son.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh. God cannot become flesh because God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where did Jesus reject the assertion that he was God dwelling on earth?

Where did Jesus make the assertion that he was God dwelling on earth?
Jesus never claimed to be God, Christians claimed he was God.