Jesus as Christ

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe that the Bible contains a complete message or revelation. In Genesis 1:1 we read about the creation of the (first) heaven and earth. In Revelation 21 we are told of a 'new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;'. Between the covers of the Christian Bible are both the prophecies of Christ, and their fulfilment. There is no space given for false claimants to the throne reserved for Jesus Christ.

A New Heaven and a New Earth can be seen as the New Message and the New Laws that are given in each age by God's chosen Messengers.

Jesus told us how to determine between a true prophet and a false prophet, Jesus did not tell us to reject all that made that claim, but to test them. That is exactly what Baha'u'llah asked us to do.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What l see Baha'ullah doing to making a claim to be the return of Christ to judge. But, as Jesus made plain, the return of the Lord to judge must be a return from heaven. This is not a claim Muhammad, Bab or Baha'ullah can make, given they each have a birthplace on earth.

Jesus also had a birthplace on earth. How they are Christ, is explained in a past reply.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The only prophecy to a birthplace on earth is reserved for Bethlehem, a small town in Judea, the birthplace of king David. The birth of Jesus, the Messiah of God, takes place here, and it is not the birthplace of Muhammad, Bab or Baha'ullah.

I do not agree, there is much more to consider, but sorry ran out of time this morning.

If you want to explore this the Bible does say that the Gate (Bab) and the Glory of God (Baha'u'llah) will come from the East and that Mount Carmel will see the Glory of God and that many Nations will flow up that mountain of the Lord.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In Genesis 12 we have the story of Abra(ha)m. God made a promise to Abram, saying, 'And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:'

A Christian places their faith in a God who has made himself known at a personal level. The friendship becomes real and trustworthy; to the point where one is happy to trust Jesus Christ above the word of man.

To be fair I would see Islam fits that prophecy better than Christianity. Islam spread as a Nation. Christianity spread across nations, but never found unity as a Nation itself, it in fact became more divided.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah all had a birthplace on earth yet all of their souls were pre-existent in the spiritual world (heaven).

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Therefore, there is no difference between how Jesus came to earth and how Baha'u'llah came to earth, as they were both born on earth yet both of their souls pre-existed in heaven before they were born on earth. When they were born, their soul united with their body. That is how they were different from ordinary humans, as the souls of ordinary humans are not pre-existent but rather they come into being at the time of conception.

I do not know what verses you are referring to where you believe Jesus said that the return of the Lord to judge must be a 'return' from heaven. The soul of Baha'u'llah was sent by God from heaven. and His soul united with His body at the time of conception. The same exact thing happened to Jesus.

As I think I said before, Jesus said that His work was finished on earth and He would no longer be in the world, so that tells us that the return of Christ cannot be referring to the same man Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago.
(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being who will be born on earth. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality His soul descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

From my reading of the New Testament, there was no pre-existent soul of Jesus, but there was a pre-existent Spirit (the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Christ). So l do not believe that the souls of prophets pre-existed.

What indications are there from the early life of Jesus that his soul pre-existed? Jesus, before the age of thirty, demonstrated no powers or knowledge that were 'other-worldly'. All divine power, and prophecy, came to Jesus after his baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The conception of Jesus was miraculous, but this does not mean that Jesus was born with 'the fulness of the Godhead bodily'. To my understanding, Jesus lived righteously 'under the law' (of Moses) until his baptism by John. Only then did he receive his anointing.

Muhammad, Bab and Baha'ullah all had (physical) places of birth known to us. None was born in Bethlehem, though this town was known to Jews as the (physical) birthplace of the Messiah [John 7:42].

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What indications are there from the early life of Jesus that his soul pre-existed? Jesus, before the age of thirty, demonstrated no powers or knowledge that were 'other-worldly'. All divine power, and prophecy, came to Jesus after his baptism in the Holy Spirit.

This is where jesus tells us to test the Prophets.

You will find they all have sorties of their lives prior to a declaration, when they were seen as men like others and then announced themselves as Messengers and demonstrated the power of that claim. This has been explained in detail now. We do not have to consider our own views, we can consider God has provided those answers.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is exactly what Jesus offerd to Peter and what I was also offering to you. "Christ" is the rock that is the foundation of the Church.

"Christ" is the "Name" we come to God through. 2000 years ago Christ was given from the person known as Jesus.

Christ means 'Annointed One'. So are you now seeing what is offered, that Jesus is Anointed of the Holy Spirit. It is the part of them that is not born from the womb, they are pre-existing. Humans are given a soul at birth. Maybe that will also give you thoughts as to why we have the story of the virgin birth.

The station of Chirst is how God gives the Mesengers and that is how Christ is the first and the last.

The flesh perishes, but Christ, the Holy Spirit lives before and lives on, the Alpha and the Omega.

So we have all the Messengers who are born of the Holy Spirit. We have all humanity who are born of the Human Spirit. Man has to embrace the Spirit of Faith to be born again into the Holy Spirit.

This explanation opens up many other meanings in the Bible and all the Holy Books.

Regards Tony

Christ isn't even a name. It's a title. It's greek for Messiah, or as we say in Hebrew, Mashiach. And there is nothing in the prophecies that indicates that we can only approach God through the messiah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christ isn't even a name. It's a title. It's greek for Messiah, or as we say in Hebrew, Mashiach. And there is nothing in the prophecies that indicates that we can only approach God through the messiah.

That is understood, it is the concept being offered that it was not Jesus the Church is built on, it is the knowledge that it is the Holy Spirit that builds the Church. In this concept, all the Messengers are in reality the Messiah for their age. Prophecy concerning the end of ages Messiah can then be viewed in that light, not as per the expectations that many have built.

Thus we come to G_d through Abraham, Moses and all the Prophets and Mesengers, as they are all Annointed, they are all Christ, all their Names are of One God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

From my reading of the New Testament, there was no pre-existent soul of Jesus, but there was a pre-existent Spirit (the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Christ). So l do not believe that the souls of prophets pre-existed.

What indications are there from the early life of Jesus that his soul pre-existed? Jesus, before the age of thirty, demonstrated no powers or knowledge that were 'other-worldly'. All divine power, and prophecy, came to Jesus after his baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The conception of Jesus was miraculous, but this does not mean that Jesus was born with 'the fulness of the Godhead bodily'. To my understanding, Jesus lived righteously 'under the law' (of Moses) until his baptism by John. Only then did he receive his anointing.

According to Baha'i beliefs, Jesus has a preexistent soul and a preexistent Spirit.

Jesus and Baha’u’llah were humans, just like you and I. He had special powers and capacities, so they were above other humans; but they were also human. The third station is what differentiates Manifestations of God from all other humans:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152

38: THE THREE STATIONS OF THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS

According to Baha'i beliefs, Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit until his baptism, but even before that He was not the same as an ordinary man because he had innate knowledge that no other men possess, and I believe He got that knowledge when His soul preexisted in heaven with God before He was born on earth. The same applies to Baha'u'llah since Manifestations of God all have the same nature. They are not God, but above an ordinary human and that is why they can act as mediators between God and man.

Muhammad, Bab and Baha'ullah all had (physical) places of birth known to us. None was born in Bethlehem, though this town was known to Jews as the (physical) birthplace of the Messiah [John 7:42].

Jerusalem was the physical birthplace of the Messiah since Jesus was the Messiah, but Jesus was not the only Messiah.

Christ was not prophesied to return to Jerusalem.

18. Lightning from the East

I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.”(Micah 5:2)

Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

“I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”(Matthew 24:27)

The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’.(The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. In fact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2). The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latter days’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.”(Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said:“When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’”(The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

It appears as if the Throne was set in Elam, not in Jerusalem, as many Christians believe.

The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

 

[Redemptionsong]

According to Baha'i beliefs, Jesus has a preexistent soul and a preexistent Spirit.

Jesus and Baha’u’llah were humans, just like you and I. He had special powers and capacities, so they were above other humans; but they were also human. The third station is what differentiates Manifestations of God from all other humans:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152

38: THE THREE STATIONS OF THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS

According to Baha'i beliefs, Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit until his baptism, but even before that He was not the same as an ordinary man because he had innate knowledge that no other men possess, and I believe He got that knowledge when His soul preexisted in heaven with God before He was born on earth. The same applies to Baha'u'llah since Manifestations of God all have the same nature. They are not God, but above an ordinary human and that is why they can act as mediators between God and man.

Jerusalem was the physical birthplace of the Messiah since Jesus was the Messiah, but Jesus was not the only Messiah.

Christ was not prophesied to return to Jerusalem.

18. Lightning from the East

I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.”(Micah 5:2)

Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

“I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”(Matthew 24:27)

The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’.(The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. In fact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2). The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latter days’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.”(Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said:“When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’”(The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

It appears as if the Throne was set in Elam, not in Jerusalem, as many Christians believe.

The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

View attachment 55482
View attachment 55483

We know that the 'golden gate' of the temple in Jerusalem is the gate that looks eastward. Although blocked today, it is envisaged that the Messiah will enter the temple through this gate. In Ezekiel 43:1,2 we have reference to the 'glory of the God of Israel' coming from the way of the east. This is not a prophecy relating to anyone other than the Messiah of Israel, and to his second coming. The gate is not Bab, and the 'glory of the God of Israel' is not Baha'ullah, IMO. This is confirmed by Jesus when he says, 'For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'

Who, then, is the 'Son of man'? In Daniel's visions, Daniel 7:13,14 the Son of man is seen to come to 'the Ancient of days' to be given everlasting dominion, 'that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him:'

Daniel 7:13,14 is not about the Son of man coming to earth; its about Jesus ascending to heaven. Daniel's vision is about the Lord Jesus ascending to heaven after his resurrection. The Son of man is the same as the 'Lamb' prophesied by John the Baptist, 'Behold the Lamb of God' [John 1:29] It is this lamb that is mentioned as in the midst of the throne of God [Revelation 22:1,3] The book of Revelation finishes with a call for the Lord to return, 'Even so, come, Lord Jesus'.

I believe that it's a deception to suggest that anyone other than Jesus will return as the Messiah. In Isaiah 6:1-3, Isaiah prophesies with these words, 'In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple'. In verse 3 he says, 'Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.'

How can the earth be filled with 'glory' if the glory is not spiritual and of the future? This Spirit can, according to scripture, only be received through the Son, as a baptism in the Holy Spirit, as John says, 'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.'

Did Muhammad, Bab or Baha'ullah have the power to baptize with the Holy Spirit? No. Only Jesus, the Son, was given this authority, as the Spirit proceeds initially from the Father.

Additionally, we have in John 5:22 the following words, 'For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:' Since the Son of God is Jesus Christ, how can you believe that judgment has passed to Baha'ullah?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...............That "miracles" occur.

True, we have Not yet seen any resurrections and you are Not going to see that happen this side of Armageddon.
That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there 'is going to be ' a resurrection......
None of us have actually met any persons mentioned in the Bible. And that to many people makes the Bible as Not true, and that is for each person to decide what to believe what happened 2,000-plus years ago.
Just because a person has Not yet seen Jesus' ' miracles ' does Not mean they won't come to pass.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.....Answer my question: is there anything that you could NOT believe "on faith"?

First of all, what is your definition of ' faith '____________
A lot of people think faith is credulity ( blind faith )
I find No reason Not to believe (have faith/confidence) in what Jesus taught.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christ isn't even a name. It's a title. It's greek for Messiah, or as we say in Hebrew, Mashiach. And there is nothing in the prophecies that indicates that we can only approach God through the messiah.

I find at 1 Timothy 2:5-6 that there is named one Mediator between God and man -> Jesus Christ.

 

[Trailblazer]

We know that the 'golden gate' of the temple in Jerusalem is the gate that looks eastward. Although blocked today, it is envisaged that the Messiah will enter the temple through this gate. In Ezekiel 43:1,2 we have reference to the 'glory of the God of Israel' coming from the way of the east. This is not a prophecy relating to anyone other than the Messiah of Israel, and to his second coming. The gate is not Bab, and the 'glory of the God of Israel' is not Baha'ullah, IMO. This is confirmed by Jesus when he says, 'For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'

Who, then, is the 'Son of man'? In Daniel's visions, Daniel 7:13,14 the Son of man is seen to come to 'the Ancient of days' to be given everlasting dominion, 'that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him:'

Baha'u'llah was not the Son of man, nor did He ever claim to be.
He was the return of the Son of Man, one like the Son of Man.

If Jesus was the Son of Man the following verses cannot be about the Jesus.
I believe that they are about Baha'u'llah who was one like the Son of man.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like the son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Daniel 7:13,14 is not about the Son of man coming to earth; its about Jesus ascending to heaven. Daniel's vision is about the Lord Jesus ascending to heaven after his resurrection. The Son of man is the same as the 'Lamb' prophesied by John the Baptist, 'Behold the Lamb of God' [John 1:29] It is this lamb that is mentioned as in the midst of the throne of God [Revelation 22:1,3] The book of Revelation finishes with a call for the Lord to return, 'Even so, come, Lord Jesus'.

I believe that it's a deception to suggest that anyone other than Jesus will return as the Messiah. In Isaiah 6:1-3, Isaiah prophesies with these words, 'In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple'. In verse 3 he says, 'Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.'

If you believe it will be the same man Jesus returning to earth how do you explain these verses?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. Why would Jesus change his name if he wanted people to know He was Jesus? Sadly, Christians do not bother to think about what these verses actually mean -- what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

How can the earth be filled with 'glory' if the glory is not spiritual and of the future? This Spirit can, according to scripture, only be received through the Son, as a baptism in the Holy Spirit, as John says, 'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.'

Did Muhammad, Bab or Baha'ullah have the power to baptize with the Holy Spirit? No. Only Jesus, the Son, was given this authority, as the Spirit proceeds initially from the Father.

The New Testament was written to apply to the Dispensation of Jesus (the Christian dispensation), nowhere does Jesus say that no Messengers of God would be sent in the future who would wield authority from God. The authority that was given to Jesus was for the Dispensation of Jesus, it was not for all of time.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

Baha'is believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Manifestation of God and that Manifestation is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger (Manifestation of God) for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him since He alone has the remedy for the problems humanity faces in the present age.

Additionally, we have in John 5:22 the following words, 'For the Father judgeth no man. but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:' Since the Son of God is Jesus Christ, how can you believe that judgment has passed to Baha'ullah?

As I said above, the Father committed judgment unto the Son during the Dispensation of Jesus, but not for all of time. When Baha'u'llah received His Revelation, judgment was passed on to Baha'u'llah, and we are now living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find at 1 Timothy 2:5-6 that there is named one Mediator between God and man -> Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus was the one Mediator during the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, but not for all of time.

I just explained that in this post: #434 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We know that the 'golden gate' of the temple in Jerusalem is the gate that looks eastward. Although blocked today, it is envisaged that the Messiah will enter the temple through this gate. In Ezekiel 43:1,2 we have reference to the 'glory of the God of Israel' coming from the way of the east. This is not a prophecy relating to anyone other than the Messiah of Israel, and to his second coming. The gate is not Bab, and the 'glory of the God of Israel' is not Baha'ullah, IMO. This is confirmed by Jesus when he says, 'For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'

Who, then, is the 'Son of man'? In Daniel's visions, Daniel 7:13,14 the Son of man is seen to come to 'the Ancient of days' to be given everlasting dominion, 'that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him:'

Daniel 7:13,14 is not about the Son of man coming to earth; its about Jesus ascending to heaven. Daniel's vision is about the Lord Jesus ascending to heaven after his resurrection. The Son of man is the same as the 'Lamb' prophesied by John the Baptist, 'Behold the Lamb of God' [John 1:29] It is this lamb that is mentioned as in the midst of the throne of God [Revelation 22:1,3] The book of Revelation finishes with a call for the Lord to return, 'Even so, come, Lord Jesus'.

I believe that it's a deception to suggest that anyone other than Jesus will return as the Messiah. In Isaiah 6:1-3, Isaiah prophesies with these words, 'In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple'. In verse 3 he says, 'Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.'

How can the earth be filled with 'glory' if the glory is not spiritual and of the future? This Spirit can, according to scripture, only be received through the Son, as a baptism in the Holy Spirit, as John says, 'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.'

Did Muhammad, Bab or Baha'ullah have the power to baptize with the Holy Spirit? No. Only Jesus, the Son, was given this authority, as the Spirit proceeds initially from the Father.

Additionally, we have in John 5:22 the following words, 'For the Father judgeth no man. but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:' Since the Son of God is Jesus Christ, how can you believe that judgment has passed to Baha'ullah?

Personally, this whole post discussion of Prophecy, again shows me for all time that Prophecy is only good for those who's heart who is open and ready to accepted the Manifestation of God, a person who is willing to look for Christ in all things.

I actually came to that conclusion in 1986 after reading Thief in the Night by William Sears that explained in great detail these prophecies and how the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled them. I was truly astonished and amazed at how obvious it was and had to tell the world.

The first person I chose was my mother, a born again Christian, I said you have to read this, it is all you pray for. I left that book with her.

I got a call a couple of days later to come and pick up the book that was from Satan. My mother did not even read it. There we have it, that says it all and there we also have the history of Faith in a God given Messengers.

All that Christians pray for, all that people of all Faiths have prayed for, for God's promises to be fulfilled, have been fulfilled. The old world order is dead, a new World. Order based on the Laws of God is unfolding, yet eyes are closed to the source and as such many more convulsions will rock this world to its very core, to the brink of our existence.

The talk at the UN by President Biden was very encouraging, Baha’u’llah has already foretold that America will take on the role of the world peacemakers, but also said only a union of nations will bring about peace.

Good luck to you and all, stay safe, stay well, stay happy. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe Jesus was the one Mediator during the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, but not for all of time.

I just explained that in this post: #434 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago

All these posts will be winners Susan. Sorry I do not have the Paitence to continue the battle of Prophecy. My last post will tell you why. My mother and 2 sisters, who are born again Christian, indicated to me there is just so much that can be offerd.

My mother and One sister passed on and the other remains waiting for a flesh Jesus. Oh that they could have found what their heart was asking for in this life, but God gives to who God chooses to.

All the best and may the light in your posts forever shine brighter, to many more hearts.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I find at 1 Timothy 2:5-6 that there is named one Mediator between God and man -> Jesus Christ.

So would you be offering there was no Mediation from God to man before Jesus?

Maybe that one verse needs the context of time and place.

Regards Tony

 

[Oberon12]

To paraphrase Carl Sagan, there is a difference between having an open mind and a huge gaping hole in your head. And, even in the bible, not all prophecies came true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In Ezekiel 43:1,2 we have reference to the 'glory of the God of Israel' coming from the way of the east. This is not a prophecy relating to anyone other than the Messiah of Israel

Yes indeed it is. The Tablet of Carmel really says it all.

"All glory be to this Day, the Day in which the fragrances of mercy have been wafted over all created things, a Day so blest that past ages and centuries can never hope to rival it, a Day in which the countenance of the Ancient of Days hath turned towards His holy seat. Thereupon the voices of all created things, and beyond them those of the Concourse on High, were heard calling aloud: 'Haste Thee, O Carmel, for lo, the light of the countenance of God, the Ruler of the Kingdom of Names and Fashioner of the heavens, hath been lifted upon thee.'"(31)

From the Tablet of Carmel by Baha'u'llah.

IMHO Regards Tony