Jesus as Christ

[Trailblazer]

Tony, what does Baha'ullah teach as the way of salvation?

Tony might have another way of viewing salvation but suffice to say that Baha'is do not believe in salvation the same way Christians do because we do not believe in an original sin we need to be saved from.

In my view, aalvation can be seen as nearness to God, and that comes by way of recognition or the signs of God, which come to us through recognition of the Manifestation of God and whatever He has revealed.

“Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings.” Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief, and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.

Were He to decree as lawful the thing which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the right to question His authority. Whoso will hesitate, though it be for less than a moment, should be regarded as a transgressor.

Whoso hath not recognized this sublime and fundamental verity, and hath failed to attain this most exalted station, the winds of doubt will agitate him, and the sayings of the infidels will distract his soul. He that hath acknowledged this principle will be endowed with the most perfect constancy. All honor to this all-glorious station, the remembrance of which adorneth every exalted Tablet. Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 86-87

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

John 1:18…”No one has seen God at any time.”

That says it all, to me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, what does Baha'ullah teach as the way of salvation?

Thank you for that question. It is a very important question, as I see it is our purpose in life.

Salvation I see is found in total submission to G_d's given Laws and guidance, which unfolds in our ability to undertake service to all humanity.

I see in this age, Salvation has expanded beyond an individual understanding and practice, we are told that no one soul should find peace, while there is even one soul that has not found peace.

This was shown by the life of Abdu'lbaha. Abdu'lbaha showed us that salvation lays completly in service and not in words, a level of service that would and does frighten many of us. Salvation is the reward of that service and without service there is no salvation.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

The problem with that is that Christians all say they know what the Bible means but what they say they know the Bible means is different and often contradictory. If Christ unlocked the whole truth for some and not others what criteria was used to decide who would discover the meaning intended by God?

Who was mentioned in prophecy? Are there any prophecies that say that Jesus, the same man Jesus, would return? If that is true, how do you explain these verses?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

What do you think is the meaning of the following verses?

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I believe that the early Church fathers interpreted the Bible the way they did because they could not fully understand it. Now, Christians continue to interpret the Bible the way it has always been interpreted...

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. A day is a year according to the day-year principle, and the 2,300 years came in 1844 when the Bab declared His mission, and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. The math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

I am not saying that Christians did not understand anything in the Bible, I am saying that they did not fully understand the Bible... As Daniel said, we will know more in the future, in 2300 years:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before (knowledge shall be increased).

This would apply to everyone who reads the Bible.

The reason that many Baha'is argue the case for Baha'u'llah is because they feel a responsibility to share what they understand to be the truth. If Baha'u'llah is believed to be a Manifestation of God, the return of Christ, as l believe, it would be selfish not to share that with other people.

The problem with adding to the canon of the Bible is that it moves away from the apostolic tradition. Jesus chose apostles who were given the task of spreading the true Gospel of grace. Peter was chief amongst the Jewish believers, and Paul the chosen as apostle to the Gentiles. What these two men taught is the foundation on which the Church stands, which is that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of a spiritual temple. If one is not 'born again' of the Spirit of Christ, through faith, one is not a member within his body.

If Paul was alive today, he would ask you, 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?' [Acts 19]

As for the passage in Daniel, l understand that these verses refer to future events; and that Sear's calculations of the second coming are incorrect. But that's a whole new topic for discussion!

 

[Redemptionsong]

John 1:18…”No one has seen God at any time.”

That says it all, to me.

Well, l'm in agreement with the belief that Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God. That means that the Spirit of the Father dwelt in the Son. Does that not also mean that God dwelt amongst men?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Law was given to Israel, not the world. Are you saying that you are obligated to refrain from shrimp, not mow your lawn on Saturday, and make sure that your wool suits don't have linen thread button holes?

I'm saying that love is the fulfilment of the moral law given to lsrael. The ritual laws all confirm what is intended in the moral law.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem with adding to the canon of the Bible is that it moves away from the apostolic tradition. Jesus chose apostles who were given the task of spreading the true Gospel of grace. Peter was chief amongst the Jewish believers, and Paul the chosen as apostle to the Gentiles. What these two men taught is the foundation on which the Church stands, which is that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of a spiritual temple. If one is not 'born again' of the Spirit of Christ, through faith, one is not a member within his body.

So which branch of Christianity do you see has not added to the Cannon?

Regards Tony

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well, l'm in agreement with the belief that Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God. That means that the Spirit of the Father dwelt in the Son. Does that not also mean that God dwelt amongst men?

John 1:18 was written after Jesus’ earthly ministry, sacrifice, & resurrection. Thousands had seen Jesus. But John still said, “No one has seen God at any time.”

That’s quite a clear, definitive statement!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Tony might have another way of viewing salvation but suffice to say that Baha'is do not believe in salvation the same way Christians do because we do not believe in an original sin we need to be saved from.

In my view, aalvation can be seen as nearness to God, and that comes by way of recognition or the signs of God, which come to us through recognition of the Manifestation of God and whatever He has revealed.

“Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings.” Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief, and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.

Were He to decree as lawful the thing which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the right to question His authority. Whoso will hesitate, though it be for less than a moment, should be regarded as a transgressor.

Whoso hath not recognized this sublime and fundamental verity, and hath failed to attain this most exalted station, the winds of doubt will agitate him, and the sayings of the infidels will distract his soul. He that hath acknowledged this principle will be endowed with the most perfect constancy. All honor to this all-glorious station, the remembrance of which adorneth every exalted Tablet. Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 86-87

That's about as clear as mud!

Am l to understand that Bahais believe that God will judge a person by their service to others? In other words, like Islam and Judaism, the duty of a believer is to do good works?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's about as clear as mud!

Am l to understand that Bahais believe that God will judge a person by their service to others? In other words, like Islam and Judaism, the duty of a believer is to do good works?

You forgot Christians also. First is Faith then works are an inseparable part of Faith.

You can not have one without the other.

Faith is birth, service is life. One can not be stillborn in Faith.

Faith picks up the cross, service follows Jesus.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

John 1:18 was written after Jesus’ earthly ministry, sacrifice, & resurrection. Thousands had seen Jesus. But John still said, “No one has seen God at any time.”

That’s quite a clear, definitive statement!

It also adds to the concept that we will not again see Jesus but the return will be another that makes a declaration from God, as in John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

The Son who came again in the Bosom of the Father, have now both declared of God.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm saying that love is the fulfilment of the moral law given to lsrael. The ritual laws all confirm what is intended in the moral law.

You are both right and wrong. The rabbis teach us that all the laws can be divided into two groups: loving God, and loving your neighbor. However, we need to study the Torah to know the detail. For example, it is the Law for a Jewish man not to sleep with his wife when she is menstruating. I don't hink you can arrive at that law by asking how you love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Redemptionsong]

John 1:18 was written after Jesus’ earthly ministry, sacrifice, & resurrection. Thousands had seen Jesus. But John still said, “No one has seen God at any time.”

That’s quite a clear, definitive statement!

And l agree that the Spirit of God cannot be seen with human eyes. The Spirit has to be discerned.

The question is, Can one discern the Spirit of the Father in the Son?

 

[Redemptionsong]

You forgot Christians also. First is Faith then works are an inseparable part of Faith.

You can not have one without the other.

Faith is birth, service is life. One can not be stillborn in Faith.

Faith picks up the cross, service follows Jesus.

Regards Tony

The reason l did not include Christianity is because it is based on grace through faith. Yes, there are works of faith, but this is not the case with Judaism and lslam, both of which are based on works of the law. As a Bahai, in whom do you place your trust? Is it really faith in Jesus Christ as Lord?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And l agree that the Spirit of God cannot be seen with human eyes. The Spirit has to be discerned.

The question is, Can one discern the Spirit of the Father in the Son?

John didn’t say “spirit” in that verse, did he? No....he just said “God”.
He didn’t say “Father,” either.


Jesus perfectly represented his Father, his God, but still a representation. And because of his loyalty, his Father (who is God - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6) ‘gave him all authority.’ Matthew 28:18; Philippians 2:8-11

 

[Redemptionsong]

So which branch of Christianity do you see has not added to the Cannon?

Regards Tony

Once the canon was established, all branches of Christianity accepted 66 books as canonical. The Apocrypha, which is included in some Bibles, has never received full acceptance as inspired scripture.

 

[rational experiences]

Everyone of we humans were born.

No lying allowed says spiritual humanity.

So stop lying.

You exist self owned only as a human.

A human said I choose to want to practice science.

In the old days a human said I choose to practice satanism.

About dead things.

In life in modern times human quote us after the ice age.

So let's only use truthful human advice.

O earth exists.
Heavens exists.
Ice age happened.

Nature garden exists.
Animals exist humans exist.

Which in intellect is a human claim to the only used correct human advice.

Seen observed is living with the human status I am living.

I truly wonder what you all argue about.

If science as a human says I can think as a human. I can invent design and build .... Inventions.

Now my inventions are dead they own no life I must give a machine its life.

Then he applies a second design. Two designs

His ownership design in science as two is machine invention only.

No lying allowed.

To be human spiritual and correct no lying is allowed.

To argue we taught was to coerce.

We knew human coercion had to stop its practice as it owned bullying family human community.

Natural life

If we cannot accept just being a human being then rationally you exhibit a mind problem.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The reason l did not include Christianity is because it is based on grace through faith. Yes, there are works of faith, but this is not the case with Judaism and lslam, both of which are based on works of the law. As a Bahai, in whom do you place your trust? Is it really faith in Jesus Christ as Lord?

Faith is built on Christ, the Holy Spirit, who Jesus brought us to.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Once the canon was established, all branches of Christianity accepted 66 books as canonical. The Apocrypha, which is included in some Bibles, has never received full acceptance as inspired scripture.

I was not thinking in the terms of what the Canon consists of, but in terms as to its meaning/s.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

John didn’t say “spirit” in that verse, did he? No....he just said “God”.
He didn’t say “Father,” either.


Jesus perfectly represented his Father, his God, but still a representation. And because of his loyalty, his Father (who is God - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6) ‘gave him all authority.’ Matthew 28:18; Philippians 2:8-11

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is a 'representative' of God.

God the Father overshadowed Mary with his Holy Spirit. That makes the conception of Mary a miracle from above. In other words, God made his own vessel in which to dwell on earth. Then, at baptism, God the Father anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit 'without measure'. So God the Father made the vessel and then filled it with his own Spirit!

Jesus Christ is described as 'good' and without sin. How can an ordinary man be without sin? This must be 'lmmanuel', 'God with us'. lMO.