outhouse
Atheistically
These people were writing mythology
They were not there, nor near it, and were far removed from any actual event.
Try again.
This is only a reflection of what later Hellenist believed
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Jesus did not die on the Cross
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
These people were writing mythology
They were not there, nor near it, and were far removed from any actual event.
Try again.
This is only a reflection of what later Hellenist believed
Nada
#
Jesus never died on a cross.The word cross is a mistranslation.The actual word used in the holy scriptures was stauros.It means an upright stake,pale or pole.Another word was also used.This word is Xylon.Both of these words never mean two pieces of wood or timber.Its always one single piece of wood.The word cross was used by Latin translators.The New Testament was not written in Latin.
The NT was written in all Koine Greek.Stauros and Xylon are both Greek words.
If we read Galatians 3:13 it says this,Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."
This is actually a quote from Deuteronomy 21:23."you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance."
So we can see clearly from these scriptures that it was definitely not a cross Jesus was killed on.
Even in bibles like the Catholic Douay Rheims version, and the KJV bible, it is rendered as tree.It never says cross.They used tree in these versions because when they translated it,they knew it was not a cross because of what Peter wrote.
As recorded at Acts 5:30, the apostle Peter used the word xy′lon, meaning tree, as a synonym for stau·ros′, denoting, not a two-beamed cross, but an ordinary piece of upright timber or tree. It was not until about 300 years after Jesus death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross. However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·ros′. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree.
The NT was written in all Koine Greek.Stauros and Xylon are both Greek words.
If we read Galatians 3:13 it says this,Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."
This is actually a quote from Deuteronomy 21:23."you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance."
So we can see clearly from these scriptures that it was definitely not a cross Jesus was killed on.
Even in bibles like the Catholic Douay Rheims version, and the KJV bible, it is rendered as tree.It never says cross.They used tree in these versions because when they translated it,they knew it was not a cross because of what Peter wrote.
As recorded at Acts 5:30, the apostle Peter used the word xy′lon, meaning tree, as a synonym for stau·ros′, denoting, not a two-beamed cross, but an ordinary piece of upright timber or tree. It was not until about 300 years after Jesus death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross. However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·ros′. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
outhouse,
I don't believe that what is written in the Gospels is myth. The resurrection of Jesus has all the authenticity of BOTH a natural and supernatural truth. The fact that it doesn't quite fit your paradigm of truth doesn't mean it isn't true.
What scripture tells us is true, can be true at different levels. There are good reasons for believing that the truth of God is both true in earth and in heaven. When God sends his WORD to earth he sends his truth to dwell amongst us.
If you deny the existence of God, you deny all supernatural or heavenly truth. This limits your understanding of truth to what is earthly or material.
I guess the key is to look to first things; to Genesis. If you accept that God created the heaven and the earth then you demonstrate faith in a supernatural creator. Thus, you accept the existence of the supernatural as well as natural worlds.
If you claim that the universe can come into being spontaneously, and from nothing, you make a wilder and more extraordinary claim than that made by theists. You also make a claim that limits your knowledge to the material world. It makes a nonsense of all spiritual elements in human life, especially notions of love and beauty.
I don't believe that what is written in the Gospels is myth. The resurrection of Jesus has all the authenticity of BOTH a natural and supernatural truth. The fact that it doesn't quite fit your paradigm of truth doesn't mean it isn't true.
What scripture tells us is true, can be true at different levels. There are good reasons for believing that the truth of God is both true in earth and in heaven. When God sends his WORD to earth he sends his truth to dwell amongst us.
If you deny the existence of God, you deny all supernatural or heavenly truth. This limits your understanding of truth to what is earthly or material.
I guess the key is to look to first things; to Genesis. If you accept that God created the heaven and the earth then you demonstrate faith in a supernatural creator. Thus, you accept the existence of the supernatural as well as natural worlds.
If you claim that the universe can come into being spontaneously, and from nothing, you make a wilder and more extraordinary claim than that made by theists. You also make a claim that limits your knowledge to the material world. It makes a nonsense of all spiritual elements in human life, especially notions of love and beauty.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Thank you, Bible Student. You may be correct, but there remains an element of doubt on this issue.
In Luke 23:26, Simon of Cyrene is forced to carry the 'stake'. It is unlikely that this stake would have been newly dug into the ground at Golgotha. The place is rock and quite unsuitable for digging. The chances are they would already have set up the upright poles in readiness for the cross beam, or alternatively have left open holes for the upright post.
I remain open-minded, and certainly don't think it's an issue worth getting vexed over.
In Luke 23:26, Simon of Cyrene is forced to carry the 'stake'. It is unlikely that this stake would have been newly dug into the ground at Golgotha. The place is rock and quite unsuitable for digging. The chances are they would already have set up the upright poles in readiness for the cross beam, or alternatively have left open holes for the upright post.
I remain open-minded, and certainly don't think it's an issue worth getting vexed over.
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Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Yes, the stake was often left planted in the ground, but you JW's forget there was a horizontal crossbeam called the 'patibulum' which the convict was forced to carry to the stake where it was lashed to it to form the familiar cross shape..
Nada
#
Also, the Companion Bible in it's Appendix 162 remarks:
"In the Greek N.T. two words are used for "the cross", on which the Lord was put to death.1. The word stauros; which denotes an upright pale or stake, to which the criminals were nailed for execution. 2. The word xulon, which generally denotes a piece of a dead log of wood, or timber, for fuel or for any other purpose. It is not like dendron, which is used of a living, or green tree, as in Matt.21: 8; Rev.7: 1, 3; 8:7; 9: 4, &c. As this latter word xulon is used for the former stauros it shows us the meaning of each is exactly the same. The verb stauroo means to drive stakes. Our English word "cross" is the translation of the Latin crux; but the Greek stauros no more means a crux than the word "stick" means a "crutch". Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a simple piece of timber.[ftnote, Iliad xxiv.453. Odyssey xiv.11] And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics.[ftnote, eg.Thucydides iv.90. Xenophon, Anabasis v.2.21] It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but of always one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon(No.2 above)in connection with the manner of our Lord's death and rendered "tree" in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal.3:13, 1 Pet.2:24. This is preserved in our old English name rood or rod. See Encycl.Brit., 11th (Camb)ed., vol.7, p.505d. There is nothing in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber."
A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p819. E.W.Bullinger states:
"Used here[cross] for the stauros on which Jesus was crucified. Both words[stauros, xylon]disagree with the modern idea of a cross, with which we have become familiarized by pictures. The stauros was simply an upright pale or stake to which the Romans nailed those who were thus said to be crucified. Stauroo[the verb], merely to drive stakes. It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle. Even the Latin word crux means a mere stake."
The Concordant Literal New Testament with the Keyword Concordance states:
"stauros STANDer: cross, an upright stake or pole, without any crosspiece, now, popularly, cross..."
also
"stauroo cause-STAND, crucify, drive a stake into the ground, fasten on a stake, impale, now by popular usage, crucify, though there was no crosspiece."- pp. 63, 64, Greek-English Keyword Concordance, Concordant Publishing Concern, 1983, 3rd printing of 6th edition of 1976.
The book Dual Heritage-The Bible and the British Museum states: It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as cross in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated cross is always the Greek word [stauros] meaning a stake or upright pale. The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.
http://http://onlytruegod.org/defense/stauros.htm
"In the Greek N.T. two words are used for "the cross", on which the Lord was put to death.1. The word stauros; which denotes an upright pale or stake, to which the criminals were nailed for execution. 2. The word xulon, which generally denotes a piece of a dead log of wood, or timber, for fuel or for any other purpose. It is not like dendron, which is used of a living, or green tree, as in Matt.21: 8; Rev.7: 1, 3; 8:7; 9: 4, &c. As this latter word xulon is used for the former stauros it shows us the meaning of each is exactly the same. The verb stauroo means to drive stakes. Our English word "cross" is the translation of the Latin crux; but the Greek stauros no more means a crux than the word "stick" means a "crutch". Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a simple piece of timber.[ftnote, Iliad xxiv.453. Odyssey xiv.11] And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics.[ftnote, eg.Thucydides iv.90. Xenophon, Anabasis v.2.21] It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but of always one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon(No.2 above)in connection with the manner of our Lord's death and rendered "tree" in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal.3:13, 1 Pet.2:24. This is preserved in our old English name rood or rod. See Encycl.Brit., 11th (Camb)ed., vol.7, p.505d. There is nothing in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber."
A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p819. E.W.Bullinger states:
"Used here[cross] for the stauros on which Jesus was crucified. Both words[stauros, xylon]disagree with the modern idea of a cross, with which we have become familiarized by pictures. The stauros was simply an upright pale or stake to which the Romans nailed those who were thus said to be crucified. Stauroo[the verb], merely to drive stakes. It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle. Even the Latin word crux means a mere stake."
The Concordant Literal New Testament with the Keyword Concordance states:
"stauros STANDer: cross, an upright stake or pole, without any crosspiece, now, popularly, cross..."
also
"stauroo cause-STAND, crucify, drive a stake into the ground, fasten on a stake, impale, now by popular usage, crucify, though there was no crosspiece."- pp. 63, 64, Greek-English Keyword Concordance, Concordant Publishing Concern, 1983, 3rd printing of 6th edition of 1976.
The book Dual Heritage-The Bible and the British Museum states: It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as cross in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated cross is always the Greek word [stauros] meaning a stake or upright pale. The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.
http://http://onlytruegod.org/defense/stauros.htm
Nada
#
And that is never spoken of in the passages pertaining to the execution of Jesus Christ.Yes, the stake was often left planted in the ground, but you JW's forget there was a horizontal crossbeam called the 'patibulum' which the convict was forced to carry to the stake where it was lashed to it to form the familiar cross shape..
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Further to posts #4, 45, 54.423
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [6]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:51] And I come fulfilling that which is before me, namely, the Torah; and to allow you some of that which was forbidden you; and I come to you with a Sign from your Lord; so fear Allah and obey me.
[3:52] Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord; so worship Him: this is the right path.
[3:53] And when Jesus perceived their disbelief, he said, Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples answered, We are the helpers of Allah. We have believed in Allah. And bear thou witness that we are obedient.
[3:54] Our Lord, we believe in that which Thou hast sent down and we follow this Messenger. So write us down among those who bear witness.
[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners.
[3:56] When Allah said, O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
[3:57] Then as for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and in the next, and they shall have no helpers.
[3:58] And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their full rewards. And Allah loves not the wrongdoers.
[3:59] That is what We recite unto thee of the Signs and the wise Reminder.
[3:60] Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, Be!, and he was.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Regards
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [6]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:51] And I come fulfilling that which is before me, namely, the Torah; and to allow you some of that which was forbidden you; and I come to you with a Sign from your Lord; so fear Allah and obey me.
[3:52] Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord; so worship Him: this is the right path.
[3:53] And when Jesus perceived their disbelief, he said, Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples answered, We are the helpers of Allah. We have believed in Allah. And bear thou witness that we are obedient.
[3:54] Our Lord, we believe in that which Thou hast sent down and we follow this Messenger. So write us down among those who bear witness.
[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners.
[3:56] When Allah said, O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
[3:57] Then as for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and in the next, and they shall have no helpers.
[3:58] And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their full rewards. And Allah loves not the wrongdoers.
[3:59] That is what We recite unto thee of the Signs and the wise Reminder.
[3:60] Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, Be!, and he was.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Regards
outhouse
Atheistically
You do not have the intellect to understand the discussion.
Verses do not get plagiarized
That would be a copy.taking anything that has to do with jesus, and rewriting his legend is factual plagiarization, unless YOU can show the source in the Koran is more reliable 700 years after the event, then people like Paul writing 20 years after his death.
You fail, your book fails, you and your book have no credibility at all. :slap:
Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Your Jehovah's Witnesses used to be quite happy to have pics of crosses in their publications (below)..
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Bible Student, It's good to see you quoting E.W.Bullinger. Sound scholar!
Nada
#
Like I explained many many times before,The JW's used to believe that using the cross and celebrating Christmas,as well as other things.,was alright to do.It was not until they did more and more thorough research that they came to understand these practices to be bad.In the Jehovahs Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom book pages 198-201,it explains all about it.Your Jehovah's Witnesses used to be quite happy to have pics of crosses in their publications (below)..
Another thing.You are incorrect about those books and pictures being JW's.The JW's did not become Jehovahs Witnesses until 1931.Those are probably the IBS.International Bible Students.
And again,I am not a JW.Like I explained to you man many times before as well,you have to be baptized in order to become a JW.
Nada
#
Thanks.
Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
So the JW's are flip-floppers and keep changing their minds?
What will they decide is bad next, mickey-mouse cartoons?..
Nada
#
Learning and coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth is not flip flopping.Its called growing in understanding.So the JW's are flip-floppers and keep changing their minds?
What will they decide is bad next, mickey-mouse cartoons?..
For instance,you were incorrect about those books being from the Jehovahs Witnesses.The JW's did not adopt that name until 1931.The books you show are from the 1920's.Now you know this to be true.You now have an accurate knowledge.
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Shak34
Active Member
But those books were written by Joseph Franklin Rutherford who was the second president of the WTB&TS of Pennsylvania and was the one who change the name to Jehovah Witnesses or at least played a big role in the development of their doctrines. So in a way they would still be Witness books.
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Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
I already knew that the JW's used to call themselves Bible Students, a rose by any other name!
Incidentally JW's don't study anything for themselves, they simply let the JW's Big Bosses tell them what to think..
WIKI- "Witnesses are discouraged from formulating doctrines and "private ideas" reached through Bible research independent of Watch Tower Society publications, and are cautioned against reading other religious literature.
Adherents are told to have "complete confidence" in the leadership, avoid skepticism about what is taught in the Watch Tower Society's literature, and "not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding."
The religion makes no provision for members to criticize or contribute to official teachings and all Witnesses must abide by its doctrines and organizational requirements."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses
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Sabour
Well-Known Member
Allow me to repeat what I said already. Jesus peace be upon him clearly said that he came to fulfill the law of the prophets and not to destroy them. As you can see, I have proved from the scripture that anything hung is cursed by God. You are saying the bible is wrong about this, or it is that Jesus peace be upon hin liead and he did not come to fulfill the law of the prophet or final option is that you say that Jesus peace be upon him was in fact cursed by God because you say he was crucified.
I have proved the point I made from the bible. Saying anything the opposes that and quoting it from the bible is as agreeing to the fact that the bible contradicts itself.
Just like I proved that Jesus peace be upon him said that the way to eternal life was through following the commandmets. You keep on saying that it is the belief of Jesus peace be up on him crucification is what saves you and give you eternal life.
Your case proves nothing because as your claims were bible supported, my contradicting claims were also bible proved.
Second what you said about Abrahim peace be upon him has no regard to the subject because what happened with him wad only a test and he did nothing but obeying God.
You also said that God decided for that a man would get the punishment of the sinners.
If meb were sinners, than youbare saying that Jesus peace be upon him is a sinner too because Jesus peace be upon him was a man.
I would also like you to do thing logocally. Do you thing that the Just of God will make a man pay for the sinnong of another man. And do you really think that God created us as sinners. Look around you. Do you think all people are sinners.
For a sin to be forgiven there is repetence and that is what I proved through the story of the man whose dad said about him he was dead but now he came alive.
Redemptionsong, every point am making is bible proved. I am not talking as a muslim. I am talking as a bible reader.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Further to posts #4, 45, 54.423
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [7]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:61] This is the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who doubt.
[3:62] Now whoso disputes with thee concerning him, after what has come to thee of knowledge, say to him, Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and our people and your people; then let us pray fervently and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie.
[3:63] This certainly is the true account. There is none worthy of worship save Allah; and surely, it is Allah Who is the Mighty, the Wise.
[3:64] But if they turn away, then remember that Allah knows the mischief-makers well.
[3:65] Say, O People of the Book! come to a word equal between us and you that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partner with Him, and that some of us take not others for Lords beside Allah. But if they turn away, then say, Bear witness that we have submitted to God.
[3:66] O People of the Book! why do you dispute concerning Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Will you not then understand?
[3:67] Behold! you are those who disputed about that whereof you had knowledge. Why then do you now dispute about that whereof you have no knowledge at all? Allah knows, and you know not.
[3:68] Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was ever inclined to God andobedient to Him, and he was not of those who associate gods with God.
[3:69] Surely, the nearest of men to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe; and Allah is the friend of believers.
[3:70] A section of the People of the Book would fain lead you astray; but they lead astray none except themselves, only they perceive not.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Regards
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [7]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:61] This is the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who doubt.
[3:62] Now whoso disputes with thee concerning him, after what has come to thee of knowledge, say to him, Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and our people and your people; then let us pray fervently and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie.
[3:63] This certainly is the true account. There is none worthy of worship save Allah; and surely, it is Allah Who is the Mighty, the Wise.
[3:64] But if they turn away, then remember that Allah knows the mischief-makers well.
[3:65] Say, O People of the Book! come to a word equal between us and you that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partner with Him, and that some of us take not others for Lords beside Allah. But if they turn away, then say, Bear witness that we have submitted to God.
[3:66] O People of the Book! why do you dispute concerning Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Will you not then understand?
[3:67] Behold! you are those who disputed about that whereof you had knowledge. Why then do you now dispute about that whereof you have no knowledge at all? Allah knows, and you know not.
[3:68] Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was ever inclined to God andobedient to Him, and he was not of those who associate gods with God.
[3:69] Surely, the nearest of men to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe; and Allah is the friend of believers.
[3:70] A section of the People of the Book would fain lead you astray; but they lead astray none except themselves, only they perceive not.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Regards